Controversial - nutrition!

Notimetoride said:
Something that really baffles me, is the number of people feeding their horses calmers or asking advice on the best calmer.
Yet their horse is fed on some highly molassed conditioning/competition mix, alfalfa, is stabled 20 hrs a day with a pure sugar stable lick, wears three rugs and has a twice weekly walk/trot round an arena.
Seriously, the mind boggles.
Click to expand...

Quite. Ive had many a talks with a friend about this, and i dont know if she just doesnt take it in or if she just chooses to ignore it but suffice to say her overweight TB has nearly killed her about 20 times, cant be bridled, cant be saddled, cant be turned out, cant be left in, cant be hacked, cant be schooled etc etc but every trainer shes had to him "doenst understand a rescued horse" and every £60 calmer has been a load of **** (despite me telling her calmers don't work) yet the £12 bag of general "mix" and scoops of fibre/sugar beet are needed to keep weight on. Oh and if he doesnt have a likit he wont stand to do anything.

Frankly ive told her to shoot the damn thing, but what can you do.
 
DabDab said:
:eek3: :eek3:
Bet you didn't learn that in BHS stage 2 though did you? Probably dubious Internet sources played a part too :p
Click to expand...

I haven't done, but I'm presuming not.

I don't have any equine qualifications at all, survival is just by chance ;) and the internet :D.
 
ycbm said:
Because it is.

Most horses will do really well on grass and ad lib hay or haylage.

Fat ones need restricting. Thin ones will usually do fine given some oats.

Only people with difficult to feed horses and those of us with bad mineral imbalances in our grazing and water need to know more.

We've been feeding horses fine for centuries without feed company 'experts' telling us that we need their expensive feeds and balancers.
Click to expand...

This
 
ester said:
I haven't done, but I'm presuming not.

I don't have any equine qualifications at all, survival is just by chance ;) and the internet :D.
Click to expand...

hahaha! True. I often think most horse sense is either "in you" as in common bloody sense, but if you dont have the sense, you can at least learn some of it on the internet. Its funny though how many old school people (like those who dont even have internet) still have alive horses that do well :P
 
The problem is ignorance - people who don't know that their pony is obese, people who think hard work is light schooling and hacking for 45 minutes, 5 times a week, people who think that they should feed what it says on the packet. And, that last one? That's the fault of the feed companies, and their "experts", who are more interested in their profit margins than in the equine welfare problems of this country.

Most horses don't need short feed. If you need to give your horse a token, or distract him while the others eat, find something unmolassed and fibre-based and feed that. My ponies get chaff, because it's convenient. My mare gets chaff, and linseed, because that's what she needs.

I find it interesting that, when I track my mare's workouts using equilab, and I compare them to the average workouts, we do hugely more canter work than the vast majority, and more trot work too. I spend a lot of time walking her out, often 30 minutes a day after her faster work, as well as warming up and walking in sessions. I consider her to be in fairly light work, because of her age and level of training... I'm intrigued as to what the other people who form the average think they are doing!

It really doesn't need to be complicated, if people have a realistic idea of what their horse is doing, and what it needs.
 
One of the most frequently asked questions is what feed will make my patent safe walk only horse/cob pony turn into a forward ride. The answer is a simple one nothing it is way the said horse is it is made feeding it lots of oats competition mix etc will only make it fatter and lazier the best cure for fat lazy horses is lots of work less food and to lose a lot of weight and of course the right type too. Fitness and strength are what most leisure horses need to perform food is only a tiny part of the equation but the lazy fat beast brigade cannot wee it and are in the main not prepared to do it
 
JFTD said:
The problem is ignorance - people who don't know that their pony is obese, people who think hard work is light schooling and hacking for 45 minutes, 5 times a week, people who think that they should feed what it says on the packet. And, that last one? That's the fault of the feed companies, and their "experts", who are more interested in their profit margins than in the equine welfare problems of this country.

Most horses don't need short feed. If you need to give your horse a token, or distract him while the others eat, find something unmolassed and fibre-based and feed that. My ponies get chaff, because it's convenient. My mare gets chaff, and linseed, because that's what she needs.

I find it interesting that, when I track my mare's workouts using equilab, and I compare them to the average workouts, we do hugely more canter work than the vast majority, and more trot work too. I spend a lot of time walking her out, often 30 minutes a day after her faster work, as well as warming up and walking in sessions. I consider her to be in fairly light work, because of her age and level of training... I'm intrigued as to what the other people who form the average think they are doing!

It really doesn't need to be complicated, if people have a realistic idea of what their horse is doing, and what it needs.
Click to expand...

Yup. As said my boy gets 1/4 the rda of feed in winter now to keep weight cause realistically he rides about three times a week just about to a sweat but came as a hat rack so has taken two years to build up. Deffo was not as hard to keep this year! In fact I put him on a diet in about Feb lol. He was left out for ages before I got him so proved he can’t live out 24/7 the wuss.

now he’s just on a handful of healthy hooves chaff and he doesn’t even bother looking in the feed manger but he’ll nibble it when he done his net - I give it for boredom mostly cause I know he put his head in, blows, spends time snuffling it up off the floor then tossing the pot about and snuffling about for the rest lol
 
ycbm said:
Because it is.

Most horses will do really well on grass and ad lib hay or haylage.

Fat ones need restricting. Thin ones will usually do fine given some oats.

Only people with difficult to feed horses and those of us with bad mineral imbalances in our grazing and water need to know more.

We've been feeding horses fine for centuries without feed company 'experts' telling us that we need their expensive feeds and balancers.
Click to expand...

this!

its not that complicated.
 
ycbm said:
Because it is.

Most horses will do really well on grass and ad lib hay or haylage.

Fat ones need restricting. Thin ones will usually do fine given some oats.

Only people with difficult to feed horses and those of us with bad mineral imbalances in our grazing and water need to know more.

We've been feeding horses fine for centuries without feed company 'experts' telling us that we need their expensive feeds and balancers.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree 100%.
 
Ycbm has hit the nail on the head.

Too fat? Feed less/restrict.

Too hyper? Feed less/lower energy feed.

Loosing weight? Find out *why* horse is loosing weight THEN look at hard feed.

Too lethargic? Find out *why* horse is lethargic THEN look at hard feed.
 
ycbm said:
Because it is.

Most horses will do really well on grass and ad lib hay or haylage.

Fat ones need restricting. Thin ones will usually do fine given some oats.

Only people with difficult to feed horses and those of us with bad mineral imbalances in our grazing and water need to know more.

We've been feeding horses fine for centuries without feed company 'experts' telling us that we need their expensive feeds and balancers.
Click to expand...

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ brilliant post. says it all.
 
Most nutrionists are little more than sales people, they push the brand they work for regardless of whether the products are suitable. How much training have they had beyond studying their brochures? On top of that a lot of the big feed companies turn left overs and byproducts into the must have feed courtesy of a snazzy ad campaign, pretty picture on the packet and an exciting name. I almost cried when someone said they feed safe and sound chaff to help a slightly lame horse stay sound, I know another feeds power and performance based on the name as previously on calm and condition but now wanted better performance. There's so much information on feeding and nutrition freely available anyone dedicated enough can make their own informed decisions.
 
I won't exactly say I'm an expert horse owner, because I'm not but I have never had a problem with feeds for my ponies. I think it just takes a commonsense approach. I feed Fast Fibre and Happy Tummy and my boy looks absolutely fantastic... and yes I am biased because he's mine.

I had a certain individual who had a Welsh C at the time who she piled full of feed to get him into "Show Condition" and then proceeded to wonder why he was absolutely bonkers. :confused:
 
ycbm said:
Balancers are a new development, too. They didn't even exist for the first twenty five years I kept horses. I can't get my head around feeding a full RDA of all sorts of stuff which it isn't even known that a horse is short of.
Click to expand...

I don't think of them as balancing the diet - I know they can't do that. But given mine has no hard feed and soaked hay, I like to know she is getting her vitamins and minerals from somewhere.
How many here (humans) take a daily vitamin pill? And how many of you know exactly what vits & mins you get from your ever varying diet, and 'balance' it?
I think of balancers like vitamin pills.
 
little_critter said:
I don't think of them as balancing the diet - I know they can't do that. But given mine has no hard feed and soaked hay, I like to know she is getting her vitamins and minerals from somewhere.
How many here (humans) take a daily vitamin pill? And how many of you know exactly what vits & mins you get from your ever varying diet, and 'balance' it?
I think of balancers like vitamin pills.
Click to expand...

the sugars and the fillers do more harm than the vits and min do good, probably true in many people too!
 
ycbm said:
Because it is.

Most horses will do really well on grass and ad lib hay or haylage.

Fat ones need restricting. Thin ones will usually do fine given some oats.

Only people with difficult to feed horses and those of us with bad mineral imbalances in our grazing and water need to know more.

We've been feeding horses fine for centuries without feed company 'experts' telling us that we need their expensive feeds and balancers.
Click to expand...

Yep! Another one who agrees with this. I've worked with hard-working riding school horses, racing youngstock, pregnant mares and hacks over the years and they were all fed differently and different amounts depending on their needs. Current horse works five days a week in the summer (light work) but doesn't "need" any feed at all - he gets a handful of chaff to occupy him while his elderly fieldmate gets his feed. Why would I ask someone who works for a feed company to tell me he needs xyz when he is healthy, happy and a reasonable weight?

To be fair, the same is true of dog food. We recently took on a dog which had apparently been fed a "grain free" diet, not that we knew that for the first few weeks. If I condition scored her, she's on the thin side but the vets are very happy with her weight. I feed her what I have always fed my dogs, including some "human" leftovers such as pasta, gravy, etc and she looks brilliant. Glossy coat, bright eyes etc. But if I followed the instructions on the feed bags and tins on what to feed a 36kg dog, she would very quickly become obese (if she actually ate it all!)
 
I did consult a nutritionist when the Appy was diagnosed with PSSM and didn't have a great experience. There are feeds out there especially designed for the problem, but add those to the bucket of a very good doer at recommended amounts and you can sit and watch the weight pile on. I would have minded less if she'd been nice and flexible as a result, but she got stiff so did less work so put on more weight etc etc. To be honest I've probably read more about the subject now than any nutritionist so I can't see the point in bringing anyone in.

My friend's yard asked her to change from straights to a mix because its easier for them to feed in the morning. The yard use a well known make of feed and their nutritionist visits regularly and advised my friend to put her horse (who is in absolutely no work apart from the odd potter around the lanes) on a veteran mix. I got a call asking for advise on what calmer to use - bit of a surprise knowing the horse - but when I read the ingredients for the mix I was a lot less surprised! So she's now on something by a different brand that is more of a tummy filler than something that has enough oomph in it to get her round Badminton.

I follow enough nutritionists on FB to know there are some very sensible independent ones out there and if I had a yard of competition horses or knew I had a shortage / too much of a certain mineral etc on my land then I may well use their services. BUT if you are willing to get on google and do your own background reading then you can learn a lot and that stays with you whatever horse(s) come into your life.
 
I think a lot of people don’t know what “work” is these days, nor do they know what their horse is capable of doing on decent hay and grass.

We have a lovely little horse (or large pony) on the yard, who is out competing 1m20 and training higher almost every weekend, and who has just come back from a national 3 day comp, who gets restricted grass, hay and a cup of lo cal balancer as “feed” She looks great and is performing even better.

I do wonder if some owners are “afraid” not to give a bucket meal if the rest of the yard gets one?
 
Feed and Supplement companies make it seem a lot more complicated that it needs to be.

When I suspected ulcers in my horse I took him right back to basic feed requirements of Fiber Fiber Fiber! Funny enough he seemed to settle down and didn't have a flare up. Best part was Grass Nuts are cheap as chips!

Agree with what Dave's Mum said in that most people have a massively over inflated view on what "Hard" work is. There is a livery at my yard who thinks being ridden 5 days a week for 20 mins a time, is medium/hard work - ignoring the fact pony isn't even sweating!
Same livery also has pony on comp mix and still lacks fizz in her jump lessons! She is now asking what else she can feed/what supplements to boost energy. Well get her fit for the work being asked of her, but also look at why she might not be absorbing 2 stubbs scoops of comp mix! Would sent most horses loopy!

She must spend a fortune on feed for her little native X mare, and there I am with my Tb eventer feeding grass nuts and Alfa A! :D
 
Agree with lots of very valid points here! YCBM hits the nail on the head.
My 2 get very basic feed - unmolassed beet and a few high fibre nuts - the mare gets a token feed while the older boy gets it more for condition. Also a bit of linseed. So far they are both still upright (I hope). Old boy lean and shiny, good doer mare looking well too.

Obviously part of the issue could be that people just don't have the same attitude towards horses - no longer purely working animals for some, but pets - and there is also a massive amount of anthropomorphising going on, in my opinion. A lot of people simply don't treat their horses like the livestock they are.. but that's a whole other debate ;)
 
So many people have the availability to buy horses these days without having to have prior knowledge. Now I'm not saying we should all go in knowing everything but what I mean is that because people have been riding for so many years at x, y and z they then go and buy the horse. I've seen it all for myself over the years, there is no basic foundation of knowledge about some things and feeding seems to be one of them. This then leaves new owner at a loss of what to feed and drawn in by what friends use or adverts for attractively marketed bags of feed.

As for nutritinalists I don't particularly 'believe' in them either. They will market their products to you. I would never feed at the recommended amounts that are advised on some bags of feed.

Start of with the basics. If you're horse needs more, up the hay/haylage first and go from there. I learnt a lot myself and have taken the time to understand the differences in each feed and their analysis.
 
Some horse owners/livery yard owners have no idea of the basics of paddock management. If they put as much money into their paddock management as they do their hard feed, tack and gadgets things might start to turn around. For example the number of horses per acre, the type of grass, how to maintain the grass, drainage for the field, create a turnout area, what type of seed to resow, track management systems etc. These are actually the basics not pack as many horses in as possible, just because you have 30 stables and 3 acres doesn't mean you can sustain 30 horses.
 
Since taking advice on here my fatty has been doing very well on speedibeet, table salt and vitamin E oil alongside her not quite adlib but reasonable amount of forage.

Having spend years tying myself in knots it is nice to go simple! If she hadn't tyed up in Autumn I might not feed her any bucket feed at all but I'm pretty convinced she needs the vitamin E.

Granny gets junk food (mix) but I've fed her so many different things over the years and noticed no real difference on anything so now she just gets enough tasty mix for her to eat her bute without complaint.

I do think it can be that simple. Most of my confusion around feeding came directly from trying to listen to feed reps when I worked in a country store!
 
Unrelated to horses but reminds me of when we took the pup for his 1st year check up. Vet gave him a clean bill of health, remarked on how well he looked, perfect weight etc then asked what we fed him. When we told him he recommended we use a better food. We pointed out that he'd just said how great he looked so clearly it was doing something! People get so hung up on particular brands/types of food etc it almost becomes auto pilot and not looking at what is in front of you
 
Because most nutrionists that I've met (and I've met a fair few at events like YHL and when they come with a weigh bridge to the yard) nearly always end up suggesting their most expensive products which are usually feed balancers. And if on the rare chance they don't suggest an expensive feed balancer they then suggest shoveling buckets of the feed down your horses neck according to the horses weight. Some of the amounts that have been suggested to me are totally ridiculous.

IMHO where most people (including myself in the past) either drastically over/under feed, or don’t feed according to work done. Or they ignore worming regimes or dentists which end up costing more in the long run. If these principles were adhered to we wouldn't need feed nutrionists.
 
Something similar happens to people. "I want to get fitter, leaner and stronger - so I will drive to the gym, do 25 minutes at moderate intensity on the elliptical trainer, spend an hour in the spa and drink a 600kcal protein shake." You don't need more protein, you just need to train harder and stop eating so much... Buying a specialist feed (whether horse or human) just seems like an easier way to make performance gains than doing harder work, and companies have little interest in telling you something that they can't patent and sell.
 
little_critter said:
I don't think of them as balancing the diet - I know they can't do that. But given mine has no hard feed and soaked hay, I like to know she is getting her vitamins and minerals from somewhere.
How many here (humans) take a daily vitamin pill? And how many of you know exactly what vits & mins you get from your ever varying diet, and 'balance' it?
I think of balancers like vitamin pills.
Click to expand...

Actually, humans are generally advised not to routinely take non-specific vitamin pills, other than for diagnosed deficiencies, because of studies which link their use to cancers and earlier deaths. I think it's reasonable to apply the same rational to horses as forage testing is readily available and more likely to be appropriate than a catch-all "balancer".

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vitamins-and-cancer-risk/

I should pull out an original research link, but I'm feeling lazy...
 
Its not just feed companies though is it. Its a basic lack of knowledge from horse owners, and its not just feeding. Those who have a few lessons and then think it would be nice to have a horse, which they can buy for 50p at Beeston Sales. They have no knowledge of anything. They go to a diy livery yard where the person running has little knowledge of anything and the cycle continues.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
Because most nutrionists that I've met (and I've met a fair few at events like YHL and when they come with a weigh bridge to the yard) nearly always end up suggesting their most expensive products which are usually feed balancers. And if on the rare chance they don't suggest an expensive feed balancer they then suggest shoveling buckets of the feed down your horses neck according to the horses weight. Some of the amounts that have been suggested to me are totally ridiculous.

IMHO where most people (including myself in the past) either drastically over/under feed, or don’t feed according to work done. Or they ignore worming regimes or dentists which end up costing more in the long run. If these principles were adhered to we wouldn't need feed nutrionists.
Click to expand...

No doubt that food was something the vets are trying to push! We had ours try to push us into buying Specific, but soon backed off when I pointed out that 1. Ours are on Akela 80:20, and 2. The first two ingredients in what they were trying to push were wheat and maize. Some digging later and it was clear that the particular chain of vets were all trying to push Specific.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top