Conundrum - Dun "greying out"

[event_rider]

Some of you guys might remember that I posted about my new Dun horse about two weeks ago...


Had the vet in yesterday to microchip him and do his markings so that I could apply for a passport. I was in work so the yard manager was there at the time. He doesn't have any registered breeding as he was an "accident" between the breeders half bred (ISHXTB) hunter and a 3year old ungelded Dun connemara colt that managed to break into her field. Not having recorded breeding doesn't bother me as I liked his type and attitude.

So the vet looked at his mouth and felt that his teeth definitely were those of a rising 5 year old rather than a 3, rising 4 year old so marked his year of birth as 2008. Again, not a big deal as it wont really change my plans for him. He's turned away for the winter and I'll decide what to do with him when I see what I have in March.

However, she marked his colour on his marking sheet as "Grey". She felt that he was probably going to grey out as he gets older and that if she marked him as Dun, I'd have to get his passport amended in a year or two.

Now he's currently a pale/silver dun but has jet black points (legs/mane/tail/muzzle/ear tips). His coat isn't even flecked with grey and he has no signs of "frosting" around his eyes and muzzle. Consequently I'd be very surprised if he does change so dramatically? His Dam was bay and the sire was dun.

Anyone have any experience of a 5yo changing colour like this? I don't want to submit a passport stating he's a grey and have to get it redone if he stays dun (which I think he will?) Likewise, I don't want to call out the vet to redo it on a hunch! She's hugely experienced and has seen more than her far share of horses!

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[FairyLights]

Is he buckskin rather than dun? looks like a buckskin to me. He's not a grey.

 

[Wheels]

There is no dun in Connemara, only buckskin.

If the parents are bay and buckskin then no chance of grey unless the daddy was in fact buckskin going grey and nobody noticed him going grey either

 

[DarkHorseB]

he looks proper dun colour to me - couldn't see him greying out personally!

 

[measles]

Ditto DHB - if I went to see that colour of horse with grey on the passport I'd wonder of it was the same one

 

[Meowy Catkin]

There is no dun in Connemara, only buckskin.

If the parents are bay and buckskin then no chance of grey unless the daddy was in fact buckskin going grey and nobody noticed him going grey either

^This.

 

[siennamum]

My grey was dun as a 3 year old but only just as a 5 year old definitely grey. I would say yours was definitely dun. (buckskin if you are modern)

 

[event_rider]

For reference - another photo where he looks a bit paler but I'd still definitely class him as dun!

Out of interest, what's the difference between a dun and a buckskin? I always thought that was the American term for dun when I was reading the "Saddle Club" books back in the day? (i.e. we call them Piebald, they call them Pinto?)

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No, dun is caused by the dun gene. Buckskin is the cream gene on a bay base.

ETA. http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html

 

[ClobellsandBaubles]

If neither of his parents were grey then he won't grey out as the 'grey' gene is dominant and doesn't hide like some do.

Buckskin describes the genetic make up the horse has a dun can have a similar colour but has a different set of genes known as 'dun' both cause dilution of the base coat.

 

[Kallibear]

Hard to tell. He might grey out, he might not. Fingers crossed he doesn't!

He could well have a grey gene though: if the dad was a 3yr old he may not have started to grey out yet so won't have noticed. Grey is very common in connies, so possibly.

Maybe the vet thought he was rose grey, as he's not got the dun markings (dorsal stripe. Since he's not actually dun )

 

[MegaBeast]

Looks more like a rose grey as I though Duns had to have a darker head?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Looks more like a rose grey as I though Duns had to have a darker head?

He's buckskin.

 

[TarrSteps]

You could get him tested.

Re the sire, is he still around? As said, yours cannot be grey without a grey parent but some horses can be tricky - I used to work for a Trak breeder who sometimes produced horses that looked similar at backing age only to grey out to nearly white quite quickly. He does look very buckskin though!

 

[Zebedee]

He's buckskin.

Agree. I'm sure I've read somewhere that true duns do not have any white markings, but I've lost the link to that paper

It's also said that Duns don't have dapples. KarynK will have the answers if she still posts on here.

 

[Wheels]

It is really hard to tell from photos exactly what is going on with your horses colour. My neighbour has a buckskin connie, he is very light, lighter than your boy but he is definitely buckskin and you can tell close up that there is definitely no grey.

I have a 3.5 yr old Andalusian who is buckskin going grey and his coat is a similar colour to your horse, doesn't have goggles but does have white hairs in his mane and tail and if I brush his coat the wrong way I can see dark grey hairs underneath.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Agree. I'm sure I've read somewhere that true duns do not have any white markings, but I've lost the link to that paper

It's also said that Duns don't have dapples. KarynK will have the answers if she still posts on here.

Red dun with white markings.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Agree. I'm sure I've read somewhere that true duns do not have any white markings, but I've lost the link to that paper

It's also said that Duns don't have dapples. KarynK will have the answers if she still posts on here.

Bay dun American Paint, just to show you get dun Americans also with white

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

My section A was dun, is now grey!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

My section A was dun, is now grey!

Yes, if a horse has one (or two) copies of the grey gene, it will grey out and the base colour makes no odds (although it can be hard to tell when double dilutes - ie creamello, pearlino - grey out because of their pink skin).

As the OP's horse is rising five, you would expect signs of greying out, which the OP says the horse does not have.

 

[Jesstickle]

Yes, if a horse has one (or two) copies of the grey gene, it will grey out and the base colour makes no odds (although it can be hard to tell when double dilutes - ie creamello, pearlino - grey out because of their pink skin).

As the OP's horse is rising five, you would expect signs of greying out, which the OP says the horse does not have.

I thought two copies of grey was none to clever. Or is that the white gene I'm thinking of?

I know there are various mutations that give the same phenotype for grey but I forget exactly what is what

 

[Britestar]

Genetics determine that to be grey there MUST be a grey parent. If you can prove neither parent is grey you can tell the Vet that tge colour is incorrect. Grey is a dominant gene.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I thought two copies of grey was none to clever. Or is that the white gene I'm thinking of?

I know there are various mutations that give the same phenotype for grey but I forget exactly what is what

Overo lethal white syndrome? That's when you have two copies of the Frame gene and the foals colon doesn't work so the foal dies shortly after birth. Very sad.

 

[Jesstickle]

Overo lethal white syndrome? That's when you have two copies of the Frame gene and the foals colon doesn't work so the foal dies shortly after birth. Very sad.

Possibly. I thought there was something to do with white that resulted in a non viable embryo but that could well be it. I can never remember anything that's even remotely 'work' like

 

[TableDancer]

Goodness, there's a lot of genetic knowledge on here! Respect, chaps Doesn't look grey to me - I would have always called him dun, but I'd never even heard of buckskin till recently. It does sound rather an american term to me

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I would have always called him dun, but I'd never even heard of buckskin till recently. It does sound rather an american term to me

To be fair to you, before the genetics was understood, it was commonly thought that buckskin and (bay) dun were the same but with the US and UK names. Now we know that the cream gene on a bay base causes a colour that looks very similar to bay dun. So now bay + cream is called buckskin and the various dun colours caused by the dun gene are known as dun around the world.

 

[event_rider]

It does sound rather an american term to me

Glad I'm not the only one!

As the OP's horse is rising five, you would expect signs of greying out, which the OP says the horse does not have.

I would have thought as much too. Even if he did start to grey out at this stage it would seem like he'd keep his dark points (his mane/tail currently have no grey whatsoever)

Genetics determine that to be grey there MUST be a grey parent. If you can prove neither parent is grey you can tell the Vet that tge colour is incorrect. Grey is a dominant gene.

Unfortunately cant prove that - saw the dam when I went to try him and she was basically a bay version of him! Can't prove what colour the sire was as after the "accident" he was gelded and sold on. The people we bought him off (his breeders) told us the sire was dun but also said that my horse was three

Thanks for all the feedback guys - definitely think I'm going to get her to amend it!

 

[3bh]

Wow, would love to pick some of the genetics brains on here, if OP doesn't mind me hijacking!

What colour is mine?

Looks like this in the summer: Taken late August.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/562901_10100480349888768_2048322083_n.jpg

To show dorsal stripe: (ditto late Aug)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/196811_10100499373465368_1055620396_n.jpg



As soon as the winter coat comes through, she turns into this colour, this photo is pretty awful but it was taken about a week ago to show how she looks now: GREY!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/599831_10100556531335538_965233411_n.jpg


She did the same last winter, from age 4-5, I'm hoping she will return to dun in her 6yo summer again?! (Only got her at 4 so cant speak for before then!)

this is sire:
http://www.edenmiststud.com/uploads/4/5/8/6/4586703/3637098_orig.jpg?324



Now, someone commented to me a while back that connemaras dont carry the dun gene, so she must be buckskin. can anyone explain this to me, and if so, why is she passported dun?

I will be so gutted if she greys out, I am shallow enough to have bought her because I wanted dun, not a grey! However I have a horrible feeling she will, lots of grey in mane and coat is almost roaned - but I am in denial!!

 

[Jesstickle]

What colour was the dam?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

What colour was the dam?

^ This.

why is she passported dun?

It's not rare at all for passports to be wrong. Just think of all the 'palomino' Haflingers.

ETA. She does look grey in the stable photo. No white markings either, so unlikely that Sabino or Rabicano are causing the 'roaning' and she's not got the true roan gene.