Conventional Worming vs No Worming: Cross infection risk

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Laser4000

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Hi All....Advice Requested please re worming and cross infection from a non wormed horse ....

We have two ponies on a small yard and follow a regular 'conventional' worming regime as do most of the owners....However, one owner refuses to worm her horse preferring to rely on an organic diet with a range of herbs and vitamins.... she's adamant that her horse is worm free (as she can't see any!) and that it poses no risk to the other ponies..... my two are in an adjacent paddock, adjacent stables and share communal areas. ...... I've Googled this to death but can't find anything advice about whether this increases the risk to my two ponies....

She's a nice lady and I wouldn't want to upset her but I am very concerned at the risk to my two......
 
Why don't you worm test all of them? Then you can see if you need to at all, might give her a wake up call, or it might justify her actions.
 
At my yard we've switched over to worm testing (counts). I think it's a great idea and the horses that need worming get wormed and the ones that are fine don't :)

I would suggest the other owners do this (and the owner who doesn't worm) like SF said, it may give her a wakeup call, or maybe her horse will be fine. It'll be better for her to know in the long run though
 
deworming after doing wormcounts is notoriously unreliable. In Netherlands we have been forced to do this now for a number of years (vets here are not supposed to give a wormer unless a count has been done)

Wormcounts are somewhat more reliable if you take samples from multiple heaps over multiple days. But that also makes it more expensive. Hence why I (and many many others) order dewormers in the UK :-)

Seriously, if you read forums like this in Netherlands, many horses have died because of false negative results of wormcounts.

Luckily the sentiment is changing and people are now going back to the traditional way of deworming. And as long as you give enough for the weight of the horse, there will be no resistant worms for the products.

I would not have a client not worm their horse if they want to stable them in my yard! no way! Most prevaillent route of cross contamination would be grazing.
 
My issues with wormcounts are well documented ;) however it sounds like the owner isn't even doing this? If you aren't sharing grazing you are fine though really apart from maybe tapeworm, I'm not sure what the travel distance of a harvest mite is.

What does your yard owner say about it?
 
ester said:
If you aren't sharing grazing you are fine though really apart from maybe tapeworm, I'm not sure what the travel distance of a harvest mite is.
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Sorry to hijack the thread - but do wormers have an effect on harvest mites? We often have problems so I would be intrigued to know!

Otherwise OP, I would be suggesting worm counts for everyone!
 
My understanding was that worm counts identify those horses that are shedding worms & can contaminate the pasture, rather than having a high / low burden themselves.

But - at least getting a worm count might give you some ammunition fir her to worm it. We had a horse come onto our livery yard with a redworm issue who was PTS in the end.
 
apercrumbie said:
Sorry to hijack the thread - but do wormers have an effect on harvest mites? We often have problems so I would be intrigued to know!

Otherwise OP, I would be suggesting worm counts for everyone!
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well we use doramectin off label IV for them ;), I suspect anything given orally won't be absorbed sufficiently.

SEL amount of eggs shed should be proportional to level of infestation if the sampling procedure were perfect.
 
ester said:
well we use doramectin off label IV for them ;), I suspect anything given orally won't be absorbed sufficiently.

SEL amount of eggs shed should be proportional to level of infestation if the sampling procedure were perfect.
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One problem is that a proper sample should be representative of several poops, and usually we just take one teaspoonful and thats it [guilty of this myself], but also one has to take in to consideration back history, and also current management practices, AND of course at least one worming and probably two [autumn and spring] are advised, the encysted redworm does not appear in a count, because it is ENCYSTED, ie embedded in the gut wall.
 
ester said:
err I did say if the sampling procedure were perfect.
In the case of horse owners doing it, it never is.
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I might try and sit in the field for an hour either end of the day next time and follow each one til I get a sample from 2 minimum.

The saliva tapeworm test is fairly accurate surely? I think maybe testing with worming every few cycles could be a good compromise?
 
ester said:
err I did say if the sampling procedure were perfect.
In the case of horse owners doing it, it never is.
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I think this is a good reason to take several counts per year, maybe every two months.
Essentially any sampling procedure requires samples taken from more than one place, then mixing it up and taking a sample from the mix, then when it gets to the lab they do the same, so in the end only a tiny sample is examined..
 
I don't understand why you are telling me this EC!? I am the biggest whinger about FEC sampling methods as has been previously well documented on here. The lab side of the tests is absolutely fine and dandy. It doesn't matter if only a tiny sample is examined if the sample is representative. Which is handy given the sample quantities I deal with daily!

SF I'm fine with regular counting on a horse you know well, with a reasonably good sampling technique ;), preferably with a cement mixer :p. I'm less comfortable with someone taking a small sample from a single dropping on a horse they have just got with an unknown history.
 
ESter sorry to pick your brains here but this is an issue I have raised with my YO as we have just switched to counts and I am not sure how efficient this is. How should sampling be done to get most accurate results. Is it possible?
 
When I got my pack from Westgate it gives instructions on how to sample, basically you should take a pinch from several different balls from several droppings.

I've always found it easier to do it first thing on a morning (if stabled overnight), or on an evening (if stabled during the day).

Of course it is more difficult if your horse lives out.
 
ester said:
I don't understand why you are telling me this EC!? I am the biggest whinger about FEC sampling methods as has been previously well documented on here. The lab side of the tests is absolutely fine and dandy. It doesn't matter if only a tiny sample is examined if the sample is representative. Which is handy given the sample quantities I deal with daily!

SF I'm fine with regular counting on a horse you know well, with a reasonably good sampling technique ;), preferably with a cement mixer :p. I'm less comfortable with someone taking a small sample from a single dropping on a horse they have just got with an unknown history.
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I'm not telling you anything Ester, I am just hooking on to your info, and adding my own clarification, how I see it. Its aimed at the others who are reading this post. The majority of horse owners have no training in sampling procedures or of laboratory analysis.
 
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Ah as it was quoted it seemed direct replies to my post. Casey I'm not sure I fully agree with westgate's instructions, but they are going for what is practical given the issues of aggregation. Xtra I'd like to answer more fully than I am able too ATM, if I forget this evening pm me :)
 
FWIW, there's an interesting article on the Equisal webpage (under "News", titled "An insight into infection spread"). Not sure if the following link will work:
http://equisal.co.uk/epages/d749735...ge__Category/An_Insight_into_infection_spread

It describes a case where two horses apparently picked up a tapeworm infection spread from droppings on the adjacent bridleway. No idea how far harvest mites (intermediate host for tapeworms) can actually travel, but this (single) case study seems to suggest a fence may not be enough to avoid spread.

I have no idea how far normal worm larvae can travel, but maybe using electric fence to create a slightly wider gap to the unwormed horse could be a reasonable precaution? If I remember correctly, the larvae hatch from the eggs and try to climb up the grass blades, to be picked up during grazing. I would expect the risk of infection to be pretty low unless the horses share grazing. I don't think they can spread worms via touch. The exception would be pin worms, which are deposited by rubbing (e.g. on a fence post, or in a stable), and could be picked up by another horse chewing the same spot.

My personal experience has been that my gelding, who is naturally resistant (always has "no eggs seen" on his counts), did not develop a worm burden, despite adding an old pony to the herd whose worm egg counts quickly climbed back up after initial treatment, and who continued to need treatment on a fairly regular basis. She was clearly shedding eggs on shared grazing, yet my gelding did not develop a noticeable burden. I think much depends on each individual's susceptibility, in addition to exposure.
 
ester said:
Ah as it was quoted it seemed direct replies to my post. Casey I'm not sure I fully agree with westgate's instructions, but they are going for what is practical given the issues of aggregation. Xtra I'd like to answer more fully than I am able too ATM, if I forget this evening pm me :)
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Well it seems more comprehensive than the directions we (as a yard) got from the vet, which was to send in 1 dropping ball. I get that it would be more conclusive if you could get all droppings passed over 24 hours, and homogenise the whole lot, but it isn't really practical for most people.
 
Umm I did say going on what is practical/easy for people as most wouldn't do it if it was too much effort.
 
I've given up with worm counts. my youngster was very wormy even passed an ascarid. worm counts kept coming back clear or very low. waste of time and money.
 
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