Copper Deficiency

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spottydottypony

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Speaking to a lady on the yard i have realized my pony may have a copper deficiency. He is a black Fell pony but recently he has orange toned streaks running from his tear duct down his face. I researched this and found it looks like a copper deficiency, He has been on Spillers Feed Balancer for a few months and hay. Does anyone know of any really good supplements to combat this. I dont want to feed copper seperatley as this is not good when overdosed.
 
My liver chestnut mare had a copper deficiency and developed numerous white spots as well as loss of pigment around her eyes. I gave her the recommended dose of "Cuppra" until the pigment returned and she has been fine since!
 
My land is deficient in copper and cobalt so instead of Yellow Rockies, Red Rockies put out in the field which have copper included.

Lambs used to get a reddish tinge to the wool and I noticed it in a foal this year when I forgot to put a block out.

If I remember correctly, copper deficiency causes poor growth in young stock.
 
The ideal is to go down the analysis route however if this is not possible, look at the forageplus off the peg balancers or the progressive earth ones on ebay.

They contain reasonable but safe levels of copper (and other minerals) but crucially don't contain manganese and iron which a lot of other balancers do. These two can block the uptake of copper so you need to avoid them.
 
Ask your farming next door neighbours if there are any known soil deficiencies in your area. That would be cheaper than getting your soil tested.
 
Sorry to hi-jack but I have a copper related question..... My horse and another at our yard (our two are the only 2 out together, and very small yard) both have sun bleached streaks in their tails which I'm told is related to copper deficiency. I moved there in October and have noticed my horses un-shod feet have gone a little flatter since moving there, again this can possibly be related to copper deficiency (Other horses feet are also quite flat but she has always been on this yard so difficult to tell what the reason is)

The farmer has sheep and cattle and has had the fields tested and is convinced there is no copper deficiency in the land..... so my question is when they test the land is it a general test or would they have just checked the levels contained were suitable for cows and sheep and so it is possible our horses aren't getting enough.

I am currently feeding pro hoof which contains a small amount of copper and so as per previous posts don't really want to feed extra if it's not necessary.
 
It's the forage or grass that has to be tested. Soil samples will tell the health of the soil. Even if copper is in the soil it doesn't mean the plants are able to take it up if ph or balance is out.
Forage plus balancers are based on average forage analysis from all over UK and copper, zinc etc. are consistently found to be low. Iron and manganese often high. Iron can inhibit copper uptake and iron is generally everywhere including water so is not a common deficiency. Scroll down to iron on this merck page. http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182606.htm

If forage analysis is out a good quality balancer is the next best thing imo.
 
StoptheCavalry said:
Sorry to hi-jack but I have a copper related question..... My horse and another at our yard (our two are the only 2 out together, and very small yard) both have sun bleached streaks in their tails which I'm told is related to copper deficiency. I moved there in October and have noticed my horses un-shod feet have gone a little flatter since moving there, again this can possibly be related to copper deficiency (Other horses feet are also quite flat but she has always been on this yard so difficult to tell what the reason is)

The farmer has sheep and cattle and has had the fields tested and is convinced there is no copper deficiency in the land..... so my question is when they test the land is it a general test or would they have just checked the levels contained were suitable for cows and sheep and so it is possible our horses aren't getting enough.

I am currently feeding pro hoof which contains a small amount of copper and so as per previous posts don't really want to feed extra if it's not necessary.
Click to expand...

If your grass and/or hay/haylage is not low in copper but is high in iron or manganese this can cause copper deficiency as the iron or manganese blocks the uptake of copper. Pro hoof doesn't contain much copper so you might need to buy the copper from pro-earth and add a bit extra.
 
Kat said:
If your grass and/or hay/haylage is not low in copper but is high in iron or manganese this can cause copper deficiency as the iron or manganese blocks the uptake of copper. Pro hoof doesn't contain much copper so you might need to buy the copper from pro-earth and add a bit extra.
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Yes or switch to one of the Forage Plus ones which have higher levels of copper.
I am using the new hoof health one as I want the lysine etc. as well.
 
Kat said:
If your grass and/or hay/haylage is not low in copper but is high in iron or manganese this can cause copper deficiency as the iron or manganese blocks the uptake of copper. Pro hoof doesn't contain much copper so you might need to buy the copper from pro-earth and add a bit extra.
Click to expand...

I think I may ask what the actual results are in that case. Just wasn't sure if they think all is well for the cows and sheep but obviously all have different needs. Sure I can get these results from google but what does overdose on copper actually do?
 
StoptheCavalry said:
Sorry to hi-jack but I have a copper related question..... My horse and another at our yard (our two are the only 2 out together, and very small yard) both have sun bleached streaks in their tails which I'm told is related to copper deficiency. I moved there in October and have noticed my horses un-shod feet have gone a little flatter since moving there, again this can possibly be related to copper deficiency (Other horses feet are also quite flat but she has always been on this yard so difficult to tell what the reason is)

The farmer has sheep and cattle and has had the fields tested and is convinced there is no copper deficiency in the land..... so my question is when they test the land is it a general test or would they have just checked the levels contained were suitable for cows and sheep and so it is possible our horses aren't getting enough.

I am currently feeding pro hoof which contains a small amount of copper and so as per previous posts don't really want to feed extra if it's not necessary.
Click to expand...

Cattle require more copper than either sheep or horses do. So if it was tested and found to have sufficient for copper for cattle then there should be plenty for horses.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Cattle require more copper than either sheep or horses do. So if it was tested and found to have sufficient for copper for cattle then there should be plenty for horses.
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That's interesting thank you, and has now thrown my theory out the window. Maybe the other bits are just a coincidence then. Having said that we haven't had grass for months now and they are all having the haylage cut from the same fields, wonder if this lacks the copper.... Can levels differ field to field or is it more area to area? Sorry for all the questions
 
It would normally be an area thing but if you are on the boundary between rocks / soil types it could change, normally if that was the case the fields would show the differing characteristics in grass/ crop growth. The only thing I don't know is whether the horse could have a medical condition which would inhibit uptake or whether there is a high level of other minerals which are preventing horses in particular from up taking the copper: ie if these were the case there could be lots of copper but horse not able to get it / use it.
 
Deficiencys can be related to an excess or deficiency of another mineral. I would start with a good balanced multi vitamin (not all are created equal you need to do an as fed analysis to work it out).
 
Fintan said:
What is the average zinc, manganese and iron concentration in UK hay?

Would be interesting.
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I have had 3 analyses done in different yards but in a similar areas and have found a huge variation in those and other minerals. However manganese has varied from slightly high to off the scale, zinc the lower end of the spectrum, iron has varied but never needed adding.

I couldn't give you am accurate average for herts never mind the UK
 
Great forum here.
It looks like that UK people are far better aducatet in nutrition than the people in France or Ireland.

Did anyone try a hair mineral analyses here?
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Cattle require more copper than either sheep or horses do. So if it was tested and found to have sufficient for copper for cattle then there should be plenty for horses.
Click to expand...

Quick question, are cattle and sheep subject to the same inhibiting properties of manganese and iron as horses are when it comes to copper and zinc?
 
criso said:
Quick question, are cattle and sheep subject to the same inhibiting properties of manganese and iron as horses are when it comes to copper and zinc?
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Not sure about sheep (ironic since I have 18 of them :-))) but yes cattle are subject to the same inhibition. Not just iron or zinc (which should only really be an issue if the soil is pretty low in copper) but also Molybdenum which combines with sulphur in the soil and Forms a substance which inhibits copper absorption ESP on grassland which has been fertilised with artificial fertilisers as some contain molybdenum as it increases nitrogen availability for the grass and also land that has been limed.
 
I wonder if we are not all falling victims to the advertisements and sales pitch of the manufacturers of these "supplements"?

How on earth did they manage to breed so many horses down through the centuries when they were the main means of transport and source of power?:D

The only problems I noticed with using Red Rockies and no other supplements is that the damn youngsters grow so fast!:eek:
 
Dry Rot said:
I wonder if we are not all falling victims to the advertisements and sales pitch of the manufacturers of these "supplements"?
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No, because they are not advertised. Forageplus and Progressive Earth products are selling by word of mouth on their results.

And I don't feed anything with a label. I supplement copper bioplex from the cheapest source that I can find it. My horses' feet are much more concave since I started, having found out that because my land was high in iron and manganese that would prevent copper absorption.

How on earth did they manage to breed so many horses down through the centuries when they were the main means of transport and source of power?:D
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1. We didn't know.
2. We expected the horses to die young. 15 was an old horse when I was young. Over 15 was uninsurable.
3. We shod to cover up footiness.
4. Grazing and hay were meadow, not cow pasture 100% ryegrass and horses could browse what they needed. No-one kept horses in tiny paddocks, the rule was one acre per horse plus one acre over.
 
spottydottypony said:
Speaking to a lady on the yard i have realized my pony may have a copper deficiency. He is a black Fell pony but recently he has orange toned streaks running from his tear duct down his face. I researched this and found it looks like a copper deficiency, He has been on Spillers Feed Balancer for a few months and hay. Does anyone know of any really good supplements to combat this. I dont want to feed copper seperatley as this is not good when overdosed.
Click to expand...


I think he probably just has a blocked tear duct. If he was copper deficient you would see more than bleaching where tears were taking the colour out of his coat.
 
StoptheCavalry said:
Sorry to hi-jack but I have a copper related question..... My horse and another at our yard (our two are the only 2 out together, and very small yard) both have sun bleached streaks in their tails which I'm told is related to copper deficiency. I moved there in October and have noticed my horses un-shod feet have gone a little flatter since moving there, again this can possibly be related to copper deficiency (Other horses feet are also quite flat but she has always been on this yard so difficult to tell what the reason is)

The farmer has sheep and cattle and has had the fields tested and is convinced there is no copper deficiency in the land..... so my question is when they test the land is it a general test or would they have just checked the levels contained were suitable for cows and sheep and so it is possible our horses aren't getting enough.

I am currently feeding pro hoof which contains a small amount of copper and so as per previous posts don't really want to feed extra if it's not necessary.
Click to expand...

You've really got me wondering now. Its too late as my old girl is gone, but after I moved her to the farm where she ended her days, one year she sprouted several extra white spots (she has one large one and a small one already), had a streaky mane and after I took her shoes off for good, seemed very foot sore and the vet commented how thin and pliable her soles were. TBH I feel a bit bad now :(
 
@ Dry Rot

Victoms? We make ourself a victom.

The daily requirements for a horse in any situation is long since declared.

But there is a conflict between science and marketing. Marketing is about turnover on as many products as possible and science is about requirements.

It is easy possible to fulfill the requirements of a horse with one product / balancer but moneywise it is not very pleasant for the companys.

Like you can buy apps for the mobile phone (this is the money making part) you can buy apps for feeding.

A 500 KG racehorse in full work for an example has a requirement from 250 mg copper per day (not occasionally by copper shots and apps) and the ratio zinc copper should be somewhere about 3:1. So you need 750 mg zinc with the copper.

And so on.

Now for marketing reasons or also for the reason of a unprecise production most won`t tell you the exact amount of the ingredient that is in per KG of supplement.

Either they want you to be a believer, or they are not able to produce in such a precision that the product would pass a lab test. If you declare something, is has to be in and this in the exact declared amount. Not less, not more.

The question about horses earlier and today?

Well today we expect the horses to last as long as possible. A good sport horse will come to his best with 10 to 16 years of age.

It takes about 6 - 7 years to produce a top eventer.

Earlier? average lifespan was about 8 years.
 
Fintan said:
A 500 KG racehorse in full work for an example has a requirement from 250 mg copper per day (not occasionally by copper shots and apps) and the ratio zinc copper should be somewhere about 3:1. So you need 750 mg zinc with the copper.
Click to expand...

If the horses forage and/or grazing are high in iron, manganese and/or molybdenum, then the copper requirement will be much higher. I feed 900mg a day due to iron and manganese overload. It requires that dose to keep my dark brown horse's coat from turning red.
 
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