Copper Deficiency

Fintan said:
@ Dry Rot

Like you can buy apps for the mobile phone (this is the money making part) you can buy apps for feeding.

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There is a programme for feeding not sure if it has been released in the UK yet its called Feed X L (good will bring it up) developed by a nutritionist.
 
Yes the software sad enough is only as good as the user. Will start with the analyses of the own food like hay and end with the rest.

Its funny, the aussis calculate with different values then for an example NRC, KER, Belgiums or Germans.

This Feed XL is in relation to others a bit generous with tolerances.

An overdraught with nearly 100% of protein is with them OK, others will tell you that is hardship. Avoid it.

IN the nearer future there is a revised edition for requirements from the leading European "Prof. Dr. Nutrition" comming. In the moment they are busy with the last arguments.

We will see.
 
Pretty sure that program uses the NRC guidelines. But put 10 nutritionists in a room and you will get 10 different answers :) Its like anything start with basic requirements and then tailor for your horse as not every horse is average which is what results are based on.
 
Fortunately, my Highland ponies each come with two perfectly functioning kidneys so if anything is in excess in their 100% natural diet, it is excreted or defecated!:D
 
The more I read about what I should and shouldn't feed the more confused I get!! My horse seems happy, healthy and alert should I keep worrying or just do as I'm doing?
 
I don't, no. I have read many times that I should, but I have also researched zinc and found that it is usually plentiful in the horse's diet. I have never noticed any problem from not supplementing zinc, but then again I don't know what the symptoms of zinc deficiency would be. In humans, it can cause anorexia and that certainly doesn't apply to any horse I've kept :D
 
Dry Rot said:
Fortunately, my Highland ponies each come with two perfectly functioning kidneys so if anything is in excess in their 100% natural diet, it is excreted or defecated!:D
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This is not correct, sorry :( If molybdenum, iron or manganese are in excess, then they latch onto the spaces that should be being used for the uptake of copper, and the horse can become copper deficient. You can see this in cows too, where a black coat goes red/brown.

Iron and manganese are overloaded in a very high proportion of forage analyses being done at the moment.
 
StoptheCavalry said:
The more I read about what I should and shouldn't feed the more confused I get!! My horse seems happy, healthy and alert should I keep worrying or just do as I'm doing?
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If your horse is barefoot with rock crunching feet there is nothing wrong.

If it's shod, you won't know.

If it's barefoot and footie (except for if it's early days out of shoes) then something needs adjustment and it could be a number of things but we'd normally start with the diet.
 
cptrayes said:
This is not correct, sorry :( If molybdenum, iron or manganese are in excess, then they latch onto the spaces that should be being used for the uptake of copper, and the horse can become copper deficient. You can see this in cows too, where a black coat goes red/brown.

Iron and manganese are overloaded in a very high proportion of forage analyses being done at the moment.
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Well, excuse me if I don't lose any sleep over it. I'll stick to the recommendation of the local agricultural college until someone proves I've been it all wrong for the last 40 years.
 
Dry Rot said:
Well, excuse me if I don't lose any sleep over it. I'll stick to the recommendation of the local agricultural college until someone proves I've been it all wrong for the last 40 years.
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Why should you lose sleep? Why should anyone say that you are wrong in what you do with your horses?

I am not saying that you are wrong with what you do with your horses, but that you are wrong in believing your horses to be completely self-balancing with regard to copper/iron/manganese/molybdenum and calcium/phosphorous. (And if your local agricultural college is teaching its students that horses are completely self balancing with regard to excess mineral intake, then they should be ashamed of themselves, since the calcium/phosphorous problem has been known of for centuries.)

I'm sorry if it offended you to be corrected, but it matters for horse health that people know that horses on unbalanced grazing/forage can develop serious heath problems.

If you have healthy horses then you have balanced grazing/forage. Not all of us are as lucky, my manganese levels are sky high in the land and the water. And it would be stupid of me to carry on believing that my horses were completely self balancing, whereas you don't need to worry.

As a matter of interest, are your horses shod?
 
cptrayes said:
If your horse is barefoot with rock crunching feet there is nothing wrong.

If it's shod, you won't know.

If it's barefoot and footie (except for if it's early days out of shoes) then something needs adjustment and it could be a number of things but we'd normally start with the diet.
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He is barefoot has been since I got him with the best rock crunching feet but I have noticed his hinds particularly becoming flatter since moving to my new yard. There is no difference to his way of going but wouldn't want to not do something now that may save a problem in future. Guess only time will tell.
 
StoptheCavalry said:
He is barefoot has been since I got him with the best rock crunching feet but I have noticed his hinds particularly becoming flatter since moving to my new yard. There is no difference to his way of going but wouldn't want to not do something now that may save a problem in future. Guess only time will tell.
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Interesting .....

I think I'd want him on a high copper/low iron "barefoot" supplement like Pro Foot, just in case, but it isn't cheap (no worse than any other though). Any red cows that should be black near you??

Is the hay/haylage "better" quality in your new yard? That could do it too.
 
Zinc helps with the immune system

We are in the London clay basin both this yard and previous ones so mud fever is a particular problem round here on all the yards I have been on. I was quite smug as since I started supplemented zinc I had less problems than others on the yard. Then I moved yards to a very high manganese area and within two weeks was having terrible problems. Am now supplementing according to these levels and it's better. The same horse used to have terrible problems with allergies and nearly everything brought him out in hives but touch wood hasn't had a bad reaction for three years.
 
criso said:
Zinc helps with the immune system

We are in the London clay basin both this yard and previous ones so mud fever is a particular problem round here on all the yards I have been on. I was quite smug as since I started supplemented zinc I had less problems than others on the yard. Then I moved yards to a very high manganese area and within two weeks was having terrible problems. Am now supplementing according to these levels and it's better. The same horse used to have terrible problems with allergies and nearly everything brought him out in hives but touch wood hasn't had a bad reaction for three years.
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Interesting! I took on one with appalling sweet itch, had to be rugged indoors and out. It disappeared as soon as he was on the diet my others are on and has now moved on from me and never had it since either.
 
And it's not like I wasn't supplementing at all. When I moved I kept the copper, zinc magnesium and phosphorous the same as the previous yard which was averagely low while I was waiting for the analysis results.

My other horse got an abscess in his jaw after a month there which may be unrelated but again could have been exacerbated by a weak immune system.
 
cptrayes said:
This is not correct, sorry :( If molybdenum, iron or manganese are in excess, then they latch onto the spaces that should be being used for the uptake of copper, and the horse can become copper deficient. You can see this in cows too, where a black coat goes red/brown.

Iron and manganese are overloaded in a very high proportion of forage analyses being done at the moment.
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Hello cptrayes - I was very interested to read your post(s) regarding copper supplementation. I have exactly the same problem going on here in New Zealand. I would love to know your exact feed recipe as I've been dabbling and not quite there yet. I also have high calcium blood levels, low phosphorus and high bilirubin. High iron and manganese pasture levels too.
 
I'm afraid you will see that cptrayes username is greyed out, which means she is no longer on the forum, so you won't get a reply from her.
 
Ruby's Mum said:
I'm afraid you will see that cptrayes username is greyed out, which means she is no longer on the forum, so you won't get a reply from her.
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I'm here :)

I started by feeding copper and zinc at the rates in the supplements sold in this country by Forage Plus and Progressive Earth. I had blood tests done which still showed high iron, so I increased the copper and zinc until that came down.

I feed straight sulphates, currently 6 grams of copper sulphate and twelve of zinc sulphate, because they are cheapest, but you should source food quality if you are going to do that.

Have a look for an online course by Dr Kellon, who is the world expert in mineral balancing in horses. I'm not sure what the answer is to your high calcium levels.



PS you will see that several years ago when this thread dates from, I did not feed zinc. I now do, because I learned that it was necessary to balance the copper.
 
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ycbm said:
I'm here :)

I started by feeding copper and zinc at the rates in the supplements sold in this country by Forage Plus and Progressive Earth. I had blood tests done which still showed high iron, so I increased the copper and zinc until that came down.

I feed straight sulphates, currently 6 grams of copper sulphate and twelve of zinc sulphate, because they are cheapest, but you should source food quality if you are going to do that.

Have a look for an online course by Dr Kellon, who is the world expert in mineral balancing in horses. I'm not sure what the answer is to your high calcium levels.



PS you will see that several years ago when this thread dates from, I did not feed zinc. I now do, because I learned that it was necessary to balance the copper.
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Thank you so much. It's been a real battle getting to the bottom of this issue. I've had terrible skin issues, pale gums, lethagy, the list goes on and vets (3) were not able to nut it out. I've been chipping away (trial and error) and this is the best they've been. Forage Plus were enormously helpful and suggested monosodium phosphate to balance the high calcium (in our grass and water) but as we're not able to get anything that resembles the Forage Plus balancers here I've had a laboratory going on in my feed shed!! I will head to the feed store tomorrow and trial your recipe. Thanks again for replying. It's an enormous relief to read a post that relates exactly to your own issues. You're a star!
 
One more question, the iron blood test you ran, is that a standard test? I've read on various sites there is a special iron test to determine if iron levels are really high. Are you familiar with this?
 
Lindadownunder said:
One more question, the iron blood test you ran, is that a standard test? I've read on various sites there is a special iron test to determine if iron levels are really high. Are you familiar with this?
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It is a normal test in cows but there are no specific tables for minerals in blood in horses, so they make a best guess from the cow tables.
 
another one........what feed to you feed and in what quantities? (if horses are at grass). I have gone back to basics, not much feed 1 x dipper chaff, 2 cups oats and 2 cups coprice bran, supplements along with adlib hay and grass. Your thoughts please?
 
Lindadownunder said:
another one........what feed to you feed and in what quantities? (if horses are at grass). I have gone back to basics, not much feed 1 x dipper chaff, 2 cups oats and 2 cups coprice bran, supplements along with adlib hay and grass. Your thoughts please?
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Same as you. Add lib forage. I feed wheat bran, oats, oil if they need more calories, depending on the horse. My fat one gets only bran, enough to get him to eat the minerals. I'm giving up chaff as I can't see the point of it. I have to supplement calcium with the bran because of the phosphorous imbalance, but you won't have that problem!
 
Just adding I owned one horse who could adsorb copper it took us a while to work this out once the vet had the light bulb moment she injected the horse with cattle copper within days the horse was improving it was like magic .
 
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