Correct arm/hand position when riding dressage

[Hollycat]

When I was taught to ride, gulp

, 30 years ago I was told that my arms should hang from my shoulders against my sides with a bend in the elbow and that the hands should be carried with my thumbs on top with the thumbnail pointing forward , my fingers curled inside and the flat of my hand outside. However, I have very short arms and a long body and have always felt this position very uncomfortable and difficult to maintain without strightening my arms from the elbow and bringing them too low.

I had a lesson today with my trainer I have just started having lessons with and who has made a massive difference in my horses way of going in a v. short space of time. She told me to hold my hands a different way as follows: Arms should hang from my shoulders with a bend in the elbow as usual but instead of holding my hands the usual way,
<font color="blue"> to pretend I was pushing a supermarket trolley. So my thumb was on the inside (not tucked in my fist or anything) instead of on top and the broad part of my hand on top facing the sky. </font> So kind of twisting the lower arm from the elbow to the inside towards my body. I think she may be exagerating a little to give me the idea as looking at pics of some top riders I see they do carry their hands this way but not quite so pronounced. It made a HUGE difference to my riding as I felt I could carry my hands with my elbows more bent in a relaxed natural manner and follow the movement of the horses head and neck a lot better without trying to shorten my reins. I also felt a lot more relaxed in my shoulders and uppper back and neck. Most horses never notice and I get on well with them, but my own horse is exceptionally sensitive and used to being ridden by professionals before I got him. He never complains but I could feel him saying 'thats more like it!'

Hope this makes sense. Here is a link to a classical dressage site. If you look at the pic of Portuguese master Professor Celestino da Costa you will see the hand position I am trying to explain. Also see some pics of the great Nuno Oliviera . On the other way of doing thngs here is a link to a site with the traditional hand position I was taught to use as a child and which has never suited me. Most of the pics on this site show this type of hand position. I know they are not dressage horses but its surprisingly hard to find a pic that illustrates what you mean although the great Reiner Klimke rides with thumbs on top!

Is this just down to personal preference? My trainer is a dressage judge and fab rider &amp; trainer and has lessons with top dressage riders. Given what a difference it made to me in just one lesson I am really surprised that no-one pointed this out to me before other than to bend my elbows more, which was v hard and never really worked.

Is it still standard to teach riding with thumbs on top? Does it depend on how the rider is put together themselves, the horse being ridden and the circumstances? How were you taught to ride? Would love to hear everyones comments, experiences and opinions.

I know I have explained this in a crap way but I hope you understand!!!!!

 

[seabiscuit]

No you have explained it really well!

I am so pleased to see this post because I have incredibly short arms, a long body and short legs and I always felt that my arms have to be completly straight to be able to get my thumbs on top with the correct rein length at the same time!

Have always been taught thumbs on top, and I agree, for someone with short arms this makes the shoulders very tight and tense. Sounds silly but I only twigged just how short my arms were a short while ago after having ridden for 20 years. If I hold my arms straight out, my hands seem to be about half a metre away from where they should be! So when I hold the reins, my elbows are no where near my sides.

Thank you for posting this! I will definately give the new method a go!

 

[poops]

Im pleased you have both posted this. I am in the same boat as you. Will read the links
Thank you

 

[Partoow]

I am sorry to say that i feel the first way you were taught was the correct way , regardless of arm length. I know that arm length is actually one of the most important factors when thinking about the way inwhich we contact with the bridle but at the end of the day the reins are only there because your arms and fingers are not long enough to hold the bit rings. So with the hand position that you have described, piano hands as i call them , imagine holding the bit rings and see if that presents the bit in a fair way to the horses mouth? The answer is no.
Sorry but like all of us we all have to work hard at our riding it is a disapline afterall, the way you are holding the reins will also cause you to be negative with the use of the rein, the piano hand is blocked into the elbow and its is 'natural 'for it to push down and pull back, therefore blocking the horse, giving what i call a 'negative v ' connection. You should have a consistant connection from the bit rigns in an unbroken line from the bit too your bent elbow that is above your hips. The connection being supported by the shoulder blades that should lie flat against your back not by force but by folding down and flat. I always say your elbows should have lead in them and the elbow should flex to allow the forearm to float up as the hands are holding two helium balloons. This will then help in keeping the neck long and the shoulders down.
The way inwhich your new trainer is telling you is biomechanically incorrect and although it may feel easy like most things in life and especially riding the easier way is not always the correct way. Sorry. I do understand your frustration but i think you need more work on the rest of your seat as it is this that will help you most with your connection to the horse.

 

[henryhorn]

I', 5' 2" with short arms so I understand the problem, however I can't see how your new instructor's method is going to work.
I too was taught the traditional method but the instructions given re angles were allow your upper arm to hang naturally, then aim to have a fairly straight line from the elbow to the mouth. the hands were slightly angled so your knuckles pointed at the horses' opposite ear and the thumbs were on top.
The chap who trained me had spent time at The Spanish Riding School in Vienna and he was enthusiastic about their methods.
The biggest fault I see are people riding with straight arms from shoulder to rein, I call it the BHS method as so many of their instructor's teach it! It drives me nuts because all it does is pull their seat forwards and they are unable to aquire a deep secure seat.
If I were you I would try and first establish your seat is correct, then concentrate on your arms being able to move freely with the rein, once that's possible I reckon you will find you have reverted to the classical method without realising it.
I'm not slating your new trainer, but I can't understand the principles behind that method, sorry!

 

[Tierra]

100% with partoow here and with all the lessons ive had (and incidently, most of these have been classical), its never ever been suggested otherwise.

Twisting your hand in the way you describe, as partoow already so elequently described results in a push down and a blocking of the rein. The give and take is also effected and the hand becomes more fixed none of which will ever help the horse to work correctly (although these hands do tend to be quite good at dragging the head down and giving the impression of a nice outline, it also tends to drop the horse onto its forehand and teach it no level of self carriage).

Good hands are something that come (imo) from a) a very good independent seat (as without this, you will always balance on your hands to some degree and carrying them independently will be too difficult) and b) endless practice and respect for the mouth.

When i first started riding dressage, twisted hands - piano hands as partoow called them - were possibly my most major fault and i had a considerably amount of lessons riding round with a riding whip held under my thumbs to try and correct it

 

[Stella]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry to say that i feel the first way you were taught was the correct way , regardless of arm length. I know that arm length is actually one of the most important factors when thinking about the way inwhich we contact with the bridle but at the end of the day the reins are only there because your arms and fingers are not long enough to hold the bit rings. So with the hand position that you have described, piano hands as i call them , imagine holding the bit rings and see if that presents the bit in a fair way to the horses mouth? The answer is no.
Sorry but like all of us we all have to work hard at our riding it is a disapline afterall, the way you are holding the reins will also cause you to be negative with the use of the rein, the piano hand is blocked into the elbow and its is 'natural 'for it to push down and pull back, therefore blocking the horse, giving what i call a 'negative v ' connection. You should have a consistant connection from the bit rigns in an unbroken line from the bit too your bent elbow that is above your hips. The connection being supported by the shoulder blades that should lie flat against your back not by force but by folding down and flat. I always say your elbows should have lead in them and the elbow should flex to allow the forearm to float up as the hands are holding two helium balloons. This will then help in keeping the neck long and the shoulders down.
The way inwhich your new trainer is telling you is biomechanically incorrect and although it may feel easy like most things in life and especially riding the easier way is not always the correct way. Sorry. I do understand your frustration but i think you need more work on the rest of your seat as it is this that will help you most with your connection to the horse.

[/ QUOTE ] Thats a great answer

All I know is that I have finally found, not one, but two excellent instructors who have both worked at reminding me to "keep the shape of my hands" - thumbs on top, soft wrists - almost curving in slightly. They need to remind me much less these days and my mare offers me much more softness and roundness. I hadn't thought of Partoo's point that "riding it is a disapline afterall ...." and the most immediately comfortable way of doing things is not necassarily the most correct way, but of course that must be the right way to view learning to ride more effectively.

 

[kerilli]

Totally agree with Partoow, the way you were originally taught is correct. Holding hands this new way, which is called "covered hands", is totally wrong. It makes the radius and ulna of the lower arm cross, rather than running parallel, so makes for stiffness in the wrists, and harder hands on the horse's mouth.
You can have your elbows further forward, away from your body, and have your reins longer, to compensate for your arms being slightly short. But your hands should stay upright with thumbs on top.

 

[SteveD]

Im surprised any trainer would advise you to ride that way....personally I'd be looking for another trainer if they dont know why you need thumbs on top'
Its the only way you will get soft, supple, independant hands. I know its hard, but it needs to be practiced

 

[lucylemon]

i always ride with thumbs on top, been taught that at every different yard and by every different instructor iv ever had!

find it the most comfortable position, although sometimes when my joints get bad i have to turn them inwards a bit to relieve the pain.

the pahase i've always been told since i was learning to ride, the one that sticks in my mind the most is "heels down and thumbs on top"

 

[Bossanova]

I dont ride with my thumbs always absolutely religiously upper-most but you certainly should never turn the hand right over, that fixes the wrists and elbows at very least.

 

[teapot]

I'm a follower of the first way you were taught - it can take years to get right but the difference is worth it. The first day I properly cracked it, instructor said that I had a hand carriage that some people would die for. How it felt can only be described as OMG, everything was just so light

I've always been taught that the position of the arm from elbow to wrist comes from your shoulder. If you've got a tense, fixed, rounded (whatever) shoulder - this will always effect the lower arm as one follows on from the other.

You can stick as many whips behind your back and through past your elbows or be tied together with plaiting cotton (yes, it hurts!) until you're blue in the face, but you're still not correcting the problem, instead it's trying to find a quick solution. It also helps with elasticity as well - loose shoulders will mean that your arm will be able to move with the horse's movement. If instead you've almost fixed yourself into a position which is deemed "correct" when it comes to having flexability in the lower arm, it's not there

We've all had lessons when someone has stuck a whip behind our backs but for me - never once were the shoulders mentioned. Changed instructors and spent over an hour working on loosening my shoulders, thinking about the top half of my back (I'm really tall so suffer from tall rider syndrome so am constantly working on it) and I had more of a change in that hour than the years worth of previous lessons sticking a whip behind my back.

 

[Hollycat]

Thanks for all of your comments - v informative - but I believe have confused you all toptally as I suspected I might! I am not describing something very extreme but very subtle - through my instructor had to describe it in an extreme way in order to get even a subtle effect from me as I've had one method drumed into me for 30 years. Is the way Nuno Olivier rides completly wrong? I was always held to believe he was a master of classical riding. Also pics I have looked at of Anky van Grunsven, Carl Hester and Emile Faurie all ride with this exact hand position. Are they all completly mistaken too? I admit they could be as classical dressage is very different from competition dressage and may not be the kindest to the horse but each to their own.

The way that henryhorn describes with a slight angle, knuckles pointing to horses ear is exactly what I mean - NOT like you are going to press your hands flat on the groundwith your knuckles.

My arm is not blocked into the elbow at all. It is a lot freer and able to move with far more feel and sensitivity. so the old way it was natural for me to resist and pull down with arms that felt stright but this way it is natural for my arms to go forward from the shoulder and to carry themselves. This may be contractdictory to what is supposed to happen, but it is what happens with my particular body.

I don't think my seat is too problematic (though everyones can be improved) as I can ride upward and downward transitions and advanced lateral work with seat and leg alone, the hand just giving an indication to bend. I have a very sensitive horse that goes very much from the seat so canter to walk is easy with him just using my seat and a half halt to warm him I'm about to ask something. He is an advanced dressage horse adn I am a crap rider with horrendous back problems - thats the basics of it! I will never compete - he is just a pet - but I want to ride him in a way thats comfortable for us both.

 

[Hollycat]

I really HATE this not being able to edit posts and having to post again!!!!!! The way I was taught is the BHS way that henryhorn describes stright elbows with hands low - and the way I am trying to say works for me is also the way henryhorn also describes as taught by the spanish riding school trainer. But in order for me to understand what my instructor meant the shopping trolley analogy was the only thing that seemed to get it into my head about what she was on about. So big hats off to her for getting it through to me what loads of other trainers have failed. I watched myself ride today in the mirrors and I look like a different rider (in a good way

).

So out of interest - the pics I posted of Nuno - is this the correct position or is the position used in the other non dressage website better? I am not trying to be argumentative - I am just very, very keen to learn even though I know I will never be rider extrordinaire!

 

[Wishful]

Does on top mean "noon" or anywhere between 11 and 1? Would the right hand thumb being at approx 11 o'clock be incorrect, or if that was more comfortable for shoulders/elbows would it make sense?