Correcting Dominant Behaviour HELP!

[littlemiss1]

I wonder if anyone could give me some advice. I have a 7 year old hw cob gelding which I've had for the last 18months, when i first got him he was very poor and very sorry for himself. slowly he's been built up and looks unrecognisable, but i have noticed that as his condition improved his temperament changed. I knew that it would because he was so low before so it was nice to see his personality come through once he was feeling better.
The problem is his behaviour has become dangerous now. it began with him being a bit bargy and bolshy when leading round the yard, to him biting the lead rope when ever it was in reach, to biting the handler and yesterday at a show rearing in the ring and then this morning when being lead to the field rearing up and boxing at me.

i had him blood tested a few months back for testosterone levels which came back normal. I'm just looking any advice on handling him and his dominant behaviour thanks in advance

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

everytime you lead him for now: chifney, lunge line,hard hat and gloves.

its all symptoms of the same problem-no respect for YOUR space.

he needs to go back in the school in a sharp pressure halter(with the metal studs) on a lunge line and when he goes to barge past you, give him enough rope to hang himself and then bring him up sharp and hard. if he pushes in to you, use the line to send him back back BACK until he is walking at your shoulder, inside eye and ear locked on to you and stops only a millisecond after you do.

be incredibly accurately and sharp with him and in a short time he will cotton on. the first few times you really want him sat down on his ass in shock if im honest, not a fluffy little jerk on the line!

as far as grabbing the leadrope goes,its irritating as sin but not dangerous per se, but ive taught my 3yo (stallion) LEAVE and back him up sharply a few steps to put him on the submissive back foot.

he is less and less mouthy and if he has a bad day a couple of really firm repetitions has him back on side.

if you sort out the leading and the grabbing the biting shouldn't remain either really as you have his respect, but whilst you are working through it wear thick layers and gloves.

come down like a ton of bricks on him basically, they are too big for this sort of crap.

 

[oldie48]

How horrible for you and I'm sorry to be blunt but it appears that as he started feeling better and became more settled he started testing his boundaries and found there were none. I've not had cobs, as such, but I think any horse can become bargy and bolshy and if you are not experienced with young horses (I note he was 5 when you got him) you probably need help from an experienced person who can show you how to deal with this behaviour. I'd certainly start by cutting out any hard feed that you might be giving him and have him out 24/7 (muzzled if necessary) and also start giving him some real work to do. I do hope you can nip this in the bud as it's not only dangerous for you and others who handle him but it doesn't do a great deal for his long term future.

 

[siennamum]

I entirely agree with PS. Be the boss, sort him with a vengeance once and you will not spend the next 2 years constantly battling him.

My dominant gelding has gone a bit feral & I lunged him today, he was horrid to start with so was worked till he really wanted to stop & wanted to understand what I wanted. When he was submissive, we stopped. He was sharply reminded of his manners on the way back to the barn every time he thought he should set the pace.

 

[twiggy2]

OP get some experienced help in please, a horse that is rearing up and boxing out at you is already out of hand but tackled head on as some of the above suggest could get you very very badly hurt, tackling horses head on is not always the safest or most successful route to take.

 

[oldie48]

I am rather concerned that if the OP had the experience and skill to do this properly the cob wouldn't be behaving like this now. I think she needs help.

everytime you lead him for now: chifney, lunge line,hard hat and gloves.

its all symptoms of the same problem-no respect for YOUR space.

he needs to go back in the school in a sharp pressure halter(with the metal studs) on a lunge line and when he goes to barge past you, give him enough rope to hang himself and then bring him up sharp and hard. if he pushes in to you, use the line to send him back back BACK until he is walking at your shoulder, inside eye and ear locked on to you and stops only a millisecond after you do.

be incredibly accurately and sharp with him and in a short time he will cotton on. the first few times you really want him sat down on his ass in shock if im honest, not a fluffy little jerk on the line!

as far as grabbing the leadrope goes,its irritating as sin but not dangerous per se, but ive taught my 3yo (stallion) LEAVE and back him up sharply a few steps to put him on the submissive back foot.

he is less and less mouthy and if he has a bad day a couple of really firm repetitions has him back on side.

if you sort out the leading and the grabbing the biting shouldn't remain either really as you have his respect, but whilst you are working through it wear thick layers and gloves.

come down like a ton of bricks on him basically, they are too big for this sort of crap.

 

[Supertrooper]

Please please DON'T use the pressure halter with the metal studs, it turned the shire x I shared from a horse who would pull away from you when rearing to a horse who reared up whenever any pressure was put on his head.

Please seek proper qualified behavioural advice for you and your boy, you need someone with you on the ground seeing exactly what is going on, who can then help you fix it.

The best help we got was an Intelligent Horsemanship instructor, there are lots about and if you go on IH website you will be able to look for one in your area. I wish we'd done it far far sooner, rather than looking for a quick fix solution xx

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Please please DON'T use the pressure halter with the metal studs, it turned the shire x I shared from a horse who would pull away from you when rearing to a horse who reared up whenever any pressure was put on his head.

Please seek proper qualified behavioural advice for you and your boy, you need someone with you on the ground seeing exactly what is going on, who can then help you fix it.

The best help we got was an Intelligent Horsemanship instructor, there are lots about and if you go on IH website you will be able to look for one in your area. I wish we'd done it far far sooner, rather than looking for a quick fix solution xx

Sorry but it obviously wasn't used correctly then....get in make your point and get out.

If it was used in a hanging on pulling and tweaking sort of way then yes it could make them *heady* but the whole point is they barge,get pulled on their butt and then the pressure releases.

 

[littlemiss1]

thank you for all your advice. i have booked in with a local very recommended trainer to come and help with his behaviour. last night after coming in from the field i lunged him for 30 mins and his behaviour this morning was like a different horse, but i know he still needs more ground work to address his dominant behaviour.

 

[elliefiz]

There is no requirement at all for a studded halter or any such cruelty. The horse has learned behaviour, he is dominant because he is allowed to be. Being cruel or nasty to him isn't going to teach him anything. He needs retraining and I would recommend finding a horsemanship trainer who will quickly show you how to establish personal space and correct handling. Google names like Martin Black, Warwick Schiller and the likes who have very helpful YouTube videos. The only tools you will require is a rope halter and a long lead role so the horse can stay out of your space. if you are resorting to chifneys, studded halters or the likes you are going down a road that causes further problems long term.

 

[elliefiz]

And contrary to popular belief, a horse isn't respecting you if you lead it in any proximity to your self. He is in your space, you are trying to teach a horse to respect you as the leader, horses naturally walk behind each other according to the pecking order so it's conpletely contradictory. Holding the horse under the chin is the most confusing thing you can do for a horse- how many people hold the horse under the chin but jab an elbow in the horse's shoulder or neck to stop it walking on top of them? Yet you are pulling it into you holding it under the chin in the first place. Our horses are taught to walk 6 foot behind us, and they know to stay out of our space. It takes no time at all to teach and the horse knows it's place. That's the big problem, people want their horses to "love" them, they project human emotions and feelings onto an animal that doesn't think or feel like we do and wonder why it all goes wrong. The reality of the situation is that a horse feels less anxious, more safe and is easier to handle when it knows it's place in the pecking order. Teach a horse to lead properly and you will have resolved a lot of issues already.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

sorry disagree.

all that's going to happen if the owner takes the horse out in a normal rope halter is that it will decide he's in charge and piss off. again. reinforcing that he can do whatever he wants.

equally on the leading front (and i'm coming at this from my personal view point of leading a young stallion and i've spoken to god knows how many pros about this)..... you don't want anything that might bite or rear behind you! you want it about 2 foot away but in slight shoulder in, inside eye and ear locked on so you have its front legs and mouth in your line of sight and can easily firmly (but not violently or aggressively) push the horses head back to neutral if he takes a nip.

i said nothing about holding him under the chin either.

watch experienced youngstock handlers and stallion handlers running them up/leading them..........they certainly dont have them behind them where they cant see what the blinking hell they are doing!

theres a lot of body language etc that CAN be crossed over the species barrier but telling people to let their bolshy already dangerous horse walk behind them is asking for trouble.

 

[SpringArising]

With regards to leading, I make mine walk either behind or next to me - I would never let anything walk in front of me, even if it wasn't pulling.

If anything pulls, they can a sharp tug on the rope, a loud "No!" and are told to get back sharpish. I will repeat that for as long as necessary. Can't stand horses who haven't been taught to lead nicely. If I go, they go. If I stop, they stop. Simple.

 

[elliefiz]

I actually said the OP should get professional help from someone experienced with horsemanship. The only tools required in that case is a rope halter and long rope. she needs to start from the beginning and establish a leadership position with the horse. It would be best to do that under guidance from a professional. Pulling a horse over on its bum with a studded halter- sorry but words fail me. There is not one horsemanship trainer out there who would advocate that and for good reason.

Personally there are very few professionals out there whose opinions on horsemanship I would take on board. Theres a huge difference between being a good rider and a good horse man. There is a reason I attend clinics with the likes of Buck Brannaman, Warwick Schiller because they have methods that work long term to produce safe, calm and well balanced horses. Their method of leading horses makes perfect sense to me, I have a yard full of horses from yearling colts to broodmares to racehorses who lead in this way, it's the basis of good ground work.

 

[SpringArising]

he needs to go back in the school in a sharp pressure halter(with the metal studs) on a lunge line and when he goes to barge past you, give him enough rope to hang himself and then bring him up sharp and hard.

the first few times you really want him sat down on his ass in shock!

get in make your point and get out.

If it was used in a hanging on pulling and tweaking sort of way then yes it could make them *heady* but the whole point is they barge,get pulled on their butt

come down like a ton of bricks on him basically, they are too big for this sort of crap.

I dread to think what goes on at your yard behind the scenes if this is what you say in public.

There are ways of being firm without being downright nasty to them.

 

[elliefiz]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f1kl2iIpWqg&client=mv-vf-uk&safesearch=always

OP here is a link to Warwick Schillers YouTube page. I have no affiliation to him except for being a big fan and have attended his clinics, etc. He quite literally has transformed my horses. Theres nothing to be lost from being a bit open minded, watching a video or 2 and maybe picking up some stuff that really make sense to you.

 

[dianchi]

OP-

As I'm sure you will have now spotted there is a few options you have here,

I think the PS comments have been taken too literal (she doesnt "hang horses") but the tough love approach is definitely what I would take with a horse not respecting space and people around them.

To me the short sharp shock approach is better than the long drawn out one foot at a time systems I have seen used in "horsemanship" intelligent/natural or otherwise.

Good luck and keep safe OP!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

I dread to think what goes on at your yard behind the scenes if this is what you say in public.

There are ways of being firm without being downright nasty to them.

lol.

ill tell you what goes on:

4 horses with great manners that dont give us a moments worry, but that get bought down to earth sharpish if they put people in danger.

and make no mistake barging and rearing can kill people.

if you really think that letting half a ton of horse have a couple of short sharp lessons in watching its feet and weight is cruel you need to open your eyes a bit.

not all horses need something so abrupt, no way would Fig or Bruce ever need it for eg. but the horse the OP describes is an accident waiting to happen that needs its manners re-installing pronto.

 

[SpringArising]

lol.

ill tell you what goes on:

4 horses with great manners that dont give us a moments worry, but that get bought down to earth sharpish if they put people in danger.

and make no mistake barging and rearing can kill people.

if you really think that letting half a ton of horse have a couple of short sharp lessons in watching its feet and weight is cruel you need to open your eyes a bit.

To put a studded halter on something and then set it up so it falls over is just tacky and lazy. Believe it or not, there are ways of teaching lessons that don't involve straight-up borderline violent methods.

And for the record, I didn't say giving horses short, sharp lessons is cruel. I said your method is.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I have to say I'm with PS on this, I was going to reply earlier but thought better of it but now I will.

So my little tale is of a horse who wasn't mine but I had to handle when I breifly worked on a livery yard. The horse had many issues and rig like behaviour was the one which was possibly where his issues stemmed from, his behaviour escalated until his rearing permenantly damaged him and the cycle was complete, the original bad behaviour (of which we never found the cause) led to pain (when he damaged himself) which led to more 'bad' behaviour, he was dangerous end of.
Now the bit of this story which is relevent is that we were told he is so dominant (rig like behaviour) he will not tolerate being led at the side of you, he would only walk with you in front of him at the end of a lead-rope, you had to be at the end of the lead rope as when he then lunged, reared and boxed out at you it gave you a split second advantage to removed yourself from his front legs...
I did not handle this horse for long, I am not stupid and if you cannot lead a normal horse from the side I would not be amused but a known rearer it is possibly the most stupid thing I've ever witnessed!

Now PS first post was quite harsh sounding, but after seeing the aftermath of a horse so dangerous it broke many bones of its owner and then was pts on account of its behaviour, I would always air on the side of never letting a horse over-step its mark. Now there are levels of action and cosequence and really not knowing the OP and their level of experiance, it would always be wise to get a professional in. With my own horses I've never even needed a rope 'correction' headcollar over just a normal one, but I have fairly well behaved beaties, they are repremanded though with sharp 'oi', a tug of the rope or a slap to the shoulder if they get ahead of me or invade my space. Topaz in particular was made to back up from her door when we first got her as she would barge into you to see what was happening outside.

There are scales of moderation in everything, the horse in question might need somthing as 'harsh' as what PS prescribed or it might not, but something needs to be done as I've seen the heartbreaking results of 'bargy' behaviour not nipped in the bud early enough.

x

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

While I can see both sides of the discussion headed by PS and SA, I think the important principle is that the discipline is proportional to the misbehaviour. My horses in general have been on the large side and I have always been careful to ensure that their manners are as good as possible. Boundaries are clear and rigorously enforced. That way hard treatment is rarely needed.

Once a horse has got out of control it is vital to rescue the situation. Sometimes what PS suggests is what is going to be needed to start the process. Either way, I do agree that the OP will benefit from outside assistance.

 

[crabbymare]

I think in this case I would not be advising the poster to use anything studded since (and I am guessing because I do not know them) they did not not have the experience to see where the behaviour was headed so are unlikely to know how to use it properly and the correct time to use it. I do think that the comment about sitting the horse on its backside has been taken out of context by some though and that if the horse has a run in the field and stops fast it will sit itself on its backside which is to me simply bending its hocks and lowering behind to stop quickly rather than sitting it on the floor. for horses that have got to the point where they go off or stand up and box when led in hand someone experienced is needed to first teach the horse manners and then show the owner or handler how to lead and handle it to retain them so that it is not allowed to forget them in theh future. if they are corrected with an oi or sharp tug at the first sign of bad manners or trying it on bad behaviour can be nipped in the bud early which leads to a happier horse that knows its position

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

thank god, someone with sense!

i did NOT say pull it over, i said sit it down on its ass with anyone with half a brain would take to mean, stop abruptly haunches lowered as per crabbymares explanation. if you think at just over 8 stone i could pull anything off its feet................

for the record i have huge respect and interest in warwick schiller etc BUT...................ive never seen them (from start ie first meeting) deal with anything difficult. we always see them on vid after a few sessions or with a total blank canvas, we never see them deal with a problem.

and i bet, that if a HW cob merrily set sail past WS barging him out the way and biting at him for good measure, that would get sat down on its ass instantly. the vids i have seen only show the horse after a few sessions when the *stop when i stop,go when i go, yield your quarters* is well instilled.................and how does that get instilled on something with its own agenda that doesnt want to listen-a come to jesus, sit down (on your ass) and discuss it, which i would imagine to be a whole lot less neat and tidy than the edited and finished vids.call me a cynic.

 

[PaddyMonty]

call me a cynic.

You're a cynic. Welcome to the club.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

LOL!!!!!!!!!

 

[twiggy2]

Hope it all works out Op

 

[elliefiz]

I have seen how Warwick deals with horses from day one having brought mine to his clinics. I have already pointed that out. I have seen Buck deal with a friends horse in the same situation. Hence I feel perfectly qualified to comment on what their training methods are and I know for a fact there is no use of studded halters or chifneys. Why use something like that to disguise a problem instead of correcting it? There is a video on YouTube that shows warwick teaching a horse to lead, his method is actually the complete opposite of what you think one should do. Anyway OP will hopefully find a solution to the problem that doesn't involve either herself or the horse getting hurt.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

the vid with the dark grey horse? that never gives him a moments bother?

i would be interested to see vids of him dealing with something that tries the same behaviour as OP horse, not of seeing him deal with either horses he has previously worked or horses with no issues.

dont get me wrong an awful lot of what he does makes sense (from what ive seen admittedly only on line) and his horses are all very correct happy and well mannered. but anyone with experience can produce happy easy horses, its how they deal with the ones someone else had messed up, that counts just as much...... as as hard as i search i can find nothing showing a horse trying its level best to evade, and him working through it, only well versed horses that are already part of his very good programme.

ref the chifney i did only say to use it until this is sorted as its unlikely to get sorted like yesterday and presumably horse needs to go out/in etc so OP needs a way of staying safe until this behaviour is eradicated. i wouldnt use one long term either so agree with you there.

equally regarding the studded halter(its the be nice one i use/have used) if you are having to yank them around all day every day you arent doing it right. but for a petite female to put across a firm correction to a big strong horse as a 1/2/3 off(and it shouldnt take more than that if you do it right) for short term use-i dont see that as disguising a thing. its a tool,use it, get the result, go back to neutral.

 

[Casey76]

My youngster (rising 4) is an extremely solid 16hh - he has 11.5 ins of bone and weighs 600kg.

He is a dope on a rope to handle 99% of the time - because I'm on top of him the minute he puts a foot out of line. The first time I took him into the new school to start lunging, he threw all his toys out and reared up and boxed at me... and then he thought he was going to die - for 3 seconds I went after him like the world was going to end. Funnily enough he has never boxed at me again. He also didn't become rope or whip or head shy.

I'm not an advocate for beating horses up, but boxing, biting and kicking are three things which I will not tolerate AT ALL.

 

[HayleyUK]

Echo the comments about the discipline needing to be proportional; if you've tried the nicer methods and aren't getting anywhere then I absolutely echo PS.

My little mare can be a pig; she can be bargy/pull when being led and will happily drag someone to her stable if she thinks she can. She's responded really well to a leadrope over the nose and a firm tug (pressure then released) and a no. She 'gets' it to the point i now don't have to give the tug if she starts.

They're too big, too quick and too dangerous to be allowed to get away with ******** behaviour.