Correcting Dominant Behaviour HELP!

[elliefiz]

Echo the comments about the discipline needing to be proportional; if you've tried the nicer methods and aren't getting anywhere then I absolutely echo PS.

My little mare can be a pig; she can be bargy/pull when being led and will happily drag someone to her stable if she thinks she can. She's responded really well to a leadrope over the nose and a firm tug (pressure then released) and a no. She 'gets' it to the point i now don't have to give the tug if she starts.

They're too big, too quick and too dangerous to be allowed to get away with ******** behaviour.

Completely backs up my point of disguising an issue not actually addressing it. I personally have little patience to be dealing with horses that need "as long as" to describe their behaviours. Horse is good to lead as long as there's a rope over it's nose. Horse is fine to lead as long as it wears a chifney, etc etc. So at my yard we teach good ground manners from day one which includes leading and it makes for well mannered and easy to handle horses who don't need any allowances made for them.

Also your concept of pressure and release is incorrect, there is no release from pressure with a rope around the nose and someone hanging onto the other end of it.

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

The thing is, in my experience a horse which has learned bad manners will revert to them unless the new discipline is consistent. So I would tend to say that my horse has excellent manners 'as long as' she is expected to behave well and disciplined if she does not. Instilling good manners in a horse is not a quick process.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Send him to a proper trainer, not one who uses metal studded halters [a new one on me] and go there every day for a lesson. He is not a pet he is a horse, get him working for you and think about "bonding" by kisses on his nose in about ten years!

 

[Casey76]

The "be-nice" halter has metal studs in the head piece:

http://www.equinehealthuk.com/be-nice-halter-185.phtml

This halter releases much more quickly than a Dually, and there is less risk of breaking the nasal bone.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Regardless of the gadgets, it is the handler who needs to be trained in order to correct the behaviour of the horse, if it is big and strong and dangerous then it is better to send it to be educated or get a handler in every day until such time as both horse and handler are back to normal.
I had to handle my pony in a bridle for quite a while as he kept forgetting his training and was unpredictable when coming it was a matter of safety, he did not attack me in any way, and was not dangerous, just really reactive and also clumsy.
I have only ever used a chiffney once or twice, and as it also needs training, it is really not for the amateur.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

the trouble is, once the horse has learned they can just piss off and disappear (or in this case take a chunk out handler then piss off and disappear) there is no way anyone handling them in a poxy normal soft head collar is going to instil anything in them other than reinforcing they can do it!

max has his rope halter, i prefer the be nice. most NH trainers or people that train groundwork use something similar/a variation of.

its not rocket science or brain surgery and i think you(generic) do the OP a great injustice by suggesting that a halter and a dose of common sense cant get this sorted without having to send the horse away for schooling or to get someone in who will charge £50 for 2 mins work the OP can easily do.

its not really about making allowances either its about being 1 step ahead and being safe. Leading a horse that has been known in the past to leg it, without having the right gear in place, is just stupid. You might never need it again, but have it there. Far better that the horse learns some spacial awareness and then plods to the field every day for the rest of its life in a rope halter/be nice etc that is never needed, than is a good boy for a few weeks then does it again and seriously injures his handler.

why do you think stallion handlers bring them out to cover in a bridle, or why pro rehab yards hand walk in a bridle or chifney? better to be safe than sorry and dont tell me all these people have no idea how to teach a horse to lead!

of course teaching them correctly from the start is the way, but sometimes you (generic) end up working with something that HAS got away with it.

out of interest elliefiz, say you have a generally well behaved youngster, say a 2 or 3yo (so much bigger than a foal) that starts getting wound up in hand, say it sees horses hooning in the field, or a fire engine goes past, or its a colt thats seen a mare. what do you do in that space of 5 seconds that you have to react and keep yourself safe? and then say one does get away from you and you take it in the school and it tries to get away again-talk me through step by step how you correct that in both situations without at any point taking a sharp pull and giving the horse a bit of shock.

 

[Fellewell]

I actually said the OP should get professional help from someone experienced with horsemanship. The only tools required in that case is a rope halter and long rope. she needs to start from the beginning and establish a leadership position with the horse. It would be best to do that under guidance from a professional. Pulling a horse over on its bum with a studded halter- sorry but words fail me. There is not one horsemanship trainer out there who would advocate that and for good reason.

Personally there are very few professionals out there whose opinions on horsemanship I would take on board. Theres a huge difference between being a good rider and a good horse man. There is a reason I attend clinics with the likes of Buck Brannaman, Warwick Schiller because they have methods that work long term to produce safe, calm and well balanced horses. Their method of leading horses makes perfect sense to me, I have a yard full of horses from yearling colts to broodmares to racehorses who lead in this way, it's the basis of good ground work.

There must be a few near-misses leading that way? I've just watched a video with one of these guys leading a problem horse and he doesn't let the horse out of his sight.

Horses can follow other horses, they have nearly 360 degree vision so if one runs up another he gets double-barrelled. Humans don't have that field of vision. Horses also have a blind spot directly behind/in front, if they spook you're going to get squished.

I'll always lead a horse at the shoulder, that way you're in the 'driving' position.

I like these NH people but we can't forget that they have years of experience, volume of horses, lack of emotional attachment and very nice hats.

 

[oldie48]

Watching my two horses out in the field the more dominant one is never in the lead, he is always behind directing his mate and using him to keep the flies off his face. Just an observation!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

There must be a few near-misses leading that way? I've just watched a video with one of these guys leading a problem horse and he doesn't let the horse out of his sight.

Horses can follow other horses, they have nearly 360 degree vision so if one runs up another he gets double-barrelled. Humans don't have that field of vision. Horses also have a blind spot directly behind/in front, if they spook you're going to get squished.

I'll always lead a horse at the shoulder, that way you're in the 'driving' position.

I like these NH people but we can't forget that they have years of experience, volume of horses, lack of emotional attachment and very nice hats.

Watching my two horses out in the field the more dominant one is never in the lead, he is always behind directing his mate and using him to keep the flies off his face. Just an observation!

good points ref 360 vision and dominant horse behind in natural environment

 

[nato]

Watching my two horses out in the field the more dominant one is never in the lead, he is always behind directing his mate and using him to keep the flies off his face. Just an observation!

This is interesting! Although personally I wouldn't be comfortable standing behind a dominant horse

 

[fburton]

This is interesting! Although personally I wouldn't be comfortable standing behind a dominant horse

I have comfortably stood behind several clearly dominant horses. The crucial thing is that their dominance did not translate to aggressiveness towards people.

Conversely, however, I wouldn't be comfortable standing behind a horse known to be aggressive towards people - whatever the underlying reason!

 

[Fellewell]

And for all those about to take their BHS Stage One; the only time you are allowed to stand behind a horse is when putting on a tail bandage.

I think it pays to be able to see both ends of a horse most of the time when handling on the ground. Of course you should be able to 'feel' both ends when in the saddle. Unless you constantly ride in an arena with mirrors which is probably just vanity ;-)

 

[oldie48]

I wouldn't lead a horse from behind, nor would I want to be in front, I like to be at the shoulder, which is where I feel I have the greatest control should anything upset the horse.

This is interesting! Although personally I wouldn't be comfortable standing behind a dominant horse

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I wouldn't lead a horse from behind, nor would I want to be in front, I like to be at the shoulder, which is where I feel I have the greatest control should anything upset the horse.

That is correct, they are under your control, and if they spook and rush forward you can turn them, if behind and eg a dog attacks them , they will knock you over, but it is fine for well trained and quiet horses to walk behind eg if bringing a group in, they all need to maintain the position you ask of them. [ bringing in three down a narrow track they all have to be under control], I may use a lunge rein on the last horse which will generally be the most passive, then I have time to take some action. But they don't know how to behave until they are trained, and some horses are more reactive than others, so one has to consider these things.

 

[HayleyUK]

Completely backs up my point of disguising an issue not actually addressing it. I personally have little patience to be dealing with horses that need "as long as" to describe their behaviours. Horse is good to lead as long as there's a rope over it's nose. Horse is fine to lead as long as it wears a chifney, etc etc. So at my yard we teach good ground manners from day one which includes leading and it makes for well mannered and easy to handle horses who don't need any allowances made for them.

Also your concept of pressure and release is incorrect, there is no release from pressure with a rope around the nose and someone hanging onto the other end of it.

Interesting view; I don't disguise anything. The behaviour is corrected in the way that suits the both of us.

I lead in and out on a daily basis without the need for a rope over the nose; however, if there is a flappy bit of plastic in a skip upsetting her, or she's a bit fresh and forgetting her manners I can and will use a quick rope over the nose to bring her back into submission.

Where did I say I hung off the rope? It's a sharp 'tug' and then release - so the pressure is on and then off. No one hangs off her head as that teaches her nothing.

Id much rather a 500kg horse can be quickly brought back down to earth when she's fresh or being a bit spooky in the wind than battle along with her like a kite on the end of a lead rein putting myself and others in danger because someone on a forum decides Im hiding, covering up or hanging off her head.

That said, there are many roads to the same end goal... I'm happy with my methods and my horses are too.

 

[Dry Rot]

Some interesting posts here and I think I agree with PS. I think I do.... Maybe....

First of all, leading. I really would not be happy with a horse leading behind my line of vision. A friend came over and we walked around the ponies. I had a small Shetland pony in for grazing. The Shetland followed us around like a dog. Suddenly, the little sod tried to mount my friend from behind! The pony turned out to be a stallion, obviously with serious sexual deviations! No, I think I want them where I can see them, even if only a Shetland!

As for dealing with a rearing/misbehaving horse, I agree the jerk on the lead rope with a rope head collar or perhaps a Be Nice head collar (although we don't actually have one!) might work -- but with some specifics.

There is a concept I call 'one lesson learning'. A horse touching an electric fence for the first time can exhibit 'one lesson learning'. The shock is unpleasant but harmless, but it will be a while before the horse touches an electric tape again. It might even refuse to cross a white line in the centre of the road because, in it's mind, it presents a similar danger.

All behaviour is initiated by some trigger or stimulus. The behaviour CAN be inhibited by a brief shock, such as electricity in the above example, or a quick jerk on the lead rope, at a critical moment. It could alternatively have the opposite efect if delivered at the wrong moment! Predators will experiment and avoid prey that defends itself or doesn't taste nice. And so on. What is critical is the TIMING of that brief shock. The small child reaching for a fancy cake wil be inhibited by the parent administering a quick and unexpected slap on the wrist. It doesn't cause any long lasting trauma, but it works! And in one lesson, too (until it needs to be repeated). But unrewarded behaviour tends to be abandoned.

So, that is how I interpreted PS's post. I took her to mean that she would bring the horse down a peg or two in the social hierarchy, not physically put it back on it's heels, though I now see that she meant both which is fine with me.

This may shock you, but I had here one of those nervous yearlings that would react violently if I put my hand up to it's head at a certain angle. It would consistently snatch away in a very (for me) frustrating way. This behaviour is self rewarding. The further away from the source of annoyance (my hand), the more relieved the yearling would feel, so it got a reward. I dedided to try countering this with a swift but well timed jerk on the lead rope. (I've used this many times in dog training). The effect was miraculous. A previously nervous yearling would now allow me to handle him around the head and a problem that had persisted for weeks was cured in a split second. I'm not suggesting that this is the solution to all nervous horses, that would be silly, or ones that rear, but it demonstrates the principle and how it works. I'd guess that rearing is an escape behaviour. If it results in something different to escape, it MIGHT be abandoned. The rest depends on the skill of the operator.

 

[fburton]

So, that is how I interpreted PS's post. I took her to mean that she would bring the horse down a peg or two in the social hierarchy, not physically put it back on it's heels, though I now see that she meant both which is fine with me.

Fine with me too, although I would ascribe the success of the manoeuvre entirely to the lesson learned from a well-timed punishment and not at all to the social hierarchy bit, which I think is something some people imagine explains why such interventions work (and which quite a lot of NH teaches, regrettably). I don't believe we humans are naturally part of horses' social hierarchy any more than they consider us to be other horses. We can make horses think this to some extent (or at least start to behave as if we were part of their social hierarchy) by attempting to emulate a dominant horse, e.g. by driving horses off hay piles, but in my opinion this is a dangerous and entirely unnecessary game to play. We can also be pushy in ways that resemble a dominant horse, and horses will learn to cope with this aberrant behaviour on our part by responding in 'submissive' ways that are pleasingly 'polite' and 'respectful' to us because they just want a quiet life - at least those that don't get p*ss*d off with the aggressiveness and fight back! But that's not the only way (or, in my view, the best way) to produce polite, respectful behaviour.

 

[Dry Rot]

Fine with me too, although I would ascribe the success of the manoeuvre entirely to the lesson learned from a well-timed punishment and not at all to the social hierarchy bit, which I think is something some people imagine explains why such interventions work (and which quite a lot of NH teaches, regrettably). I don't believe we humans are naturally part of horses' social hierarchy any more than they consider us to be other horses. We can make horses think this to some extent (or at least start to behave as if we were part of their social hierarchy) by attempting to emulate a dominant horse, e.g. by driving horses off hay piles, but in my opinion this is a dangerous and entirely unnecessary game to play. We can also be pushy in ways that resemble a dominant horse, and horses will learn to cope with this aberrant behaviour on our part by responding in 'submissive' ways that are pleasingly 'polite' and 'respectful' to us because they just want a quiet life - at least those that don't get p*ss*d off with the aggressiveness and fight back! But that's not the only way (or, in my view, the best way) to produce polite, respectful behaviour.

Well, the Shetland stallion certainly thought my friend was somewhere on his social hierarchy! Preferably as a partner and mother of his childen!

But I agree with you. Even if they do think of us as fellow horses, it is a dangerous assumption to make. Like thinking that horses are "naughty" or do things out of spite. I'd shout anthropomorphism, if I could spell it.

 

[fburton]

Well, the Shetland stallion certainly thought my friend was somewhere on his social hierarchy! Preferably as a partner and mother of his childen!

Stallions are not particular discriminating when it comes to sex and will potentially mount anything mountable and reasonably cooperative - like the dummy mares used for semen collection. I'm not sure 'social' necessarily comes into it! :eek3:

But I agree with you. Even if they do think of us as fellow horses, it is a dangerous assumption to make. Like thinking that horses are "naughty" or do things out of spite. I'd shout anthropomorphism, if I could spell it.

You just did.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Stallions are not particular discriminating when it comes to sex and will potentially mount anything mountable and reasonably cooperative - like the dummy mares used for semen collection. I'm not sure 'social' necessarily comes into it! :eek3:


You just did.

slightly irrelevant to this convo but be thankful it was only a shettie..............friend of my dads sadly died and his wife was left with a shire stallion and several mares, whilst sorting the fence the stallion tried to mount her!!!!!!!!!! somehow escaped with only cuts and bruises,lucky lady.

Goofy only really gets interested in one particular small hairy gelding that comes for lessons lol, mares he is not interested in (yet!)

 

[Barnacle]

Thank goodness the OP sought someone knowledgeable.

 

[TPO]

Off topic but I wouldn't be putting Warwick in the same category as Buck!

Having attended a WS clinic and watched him set about a 4yr old kneeing and kicking him in the stomach then justify his actions to his cult followers by comparing himself to an electric fence that tbe horse "chose" to run into was both unbelievable and pathetically lapped up.

How he can name drop Buck and Ray Hunt, that you have to give them the answer before asking the question then start on a 4yr old after the handler said she hadn't done much groundwork with him is beyond belief.

I'm not a "fluffy bunny", I've had exposure to what WS talks about (starting feral colts on Australian cattle stations) and am a firm believer in having well mannered horses. You can't be a good horse(wo)man with an ego. It's not all "unbreakable bonds" but neither is it goading horses and kicking them in the stomach repeatedly.

Should I have ever found myself in that situation is send a horse to PS over WS any day. A given really...

So yes while I agree with everything PS has posted I also agree with the poster who said that if the handler had the experience to do this the situation wouldn't have arisen/no need to ask.

In my limited experience of this situation I've found it happens regularly when people have taken on a "poor" horse. It's easy to allow a poor horse certain liberties as you feel sorry for them in their poor condition but as it, and strength, return the horse ends up a bit spoiled. It's similar to the orphan foal situation.

OP is getting in help and I'd sumise that's the best course of action. You may find the Richard Maxwell books helpful also. They are easy to read with lots of good photographs to illustrate his points. I have Training the Young Horse, Maximise Your Horsemanship and Unlock Your Horses Talent- no association with Max but have enjoyed his demos and found his books useful reminders