Correction of aggressive dogs?

cptrayes

cptrayes

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I was at quite a crowded event with a lot of dogs around at the weekend and I saw two incidents of dogs becoming extremely aggressive as another dog passed. In the first case the dog was a large staffie type dog and the owner really had trouble holding it. The second case was two smaller terriers which were easily restrained but equally aggressive.

In both cases the owners patted the aggressive dogs once the other dog had moved away. The dogs were not corrected, they only calmed because the object of their aggression had moved out of range.

Is this the right thing to do? It didn't seem right to me, but I'm not up to date with modern dog training principles.
 
Not what I would do.

I saw a chap struggling to hold 2 German Shepherds as a jogger went past on the opposite side of the road on friday, as the jogger went past and the dogs were barking the man holding them was telling them they were good dogs and made no attempt to correct them or divert their attention.
 
I guess it would depend on the reason for aggression? But then I would turn the dog and go the other way to avoid the confrontation if I took a dog like that to an event. My big dog is not aggressive at all, but seemingly I'm always in the wrong when other smaller dogs have a pop at him, even though he avoids confrontation at all costs :(
 
twiggy2 said:
Not what I would do.

I saw a chap struggling to hold 2 German Shepherds as a jogger went past on the opposite side of the road on friday, as the jogger went past and the dogs were barking the man holding them was telling them they were good dogs and made no attempt to correct them or divert their attention.
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Nothing wrong with some strong aversion traing,with praise once the subject has passed the subject quietly,works every time
 
EAST KENT said:
Nothing wrong with some strong aversion traing,with praise once the subject has passed the subject quietly,works every time
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What should the aversion training have been EK, or do you mean that seeing the joggers was the aversion training?

I'm not sure if you mean that the people I saw were right with what they did ?
 
cptrayes said:
What should the aversion training have been EK, or do you mean that seeing the joggers was the aversion training?

I'm not sure if you mean that the people I saw were right with what they did ?
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As with all training initially it should be practised at home with the animal in a level frame of mind,so that it does actually take on board the request.Thereafter exposure in varying degrees to follow up on the training.Bit like you would not expect a young horse to learn dressage in a test,do it at home first,dogs are no different
 
EAST KENT said:
As with all training initially it should be practised at home with the animal in a level frame of mind,so that it does actually take on board the request.Thereafter exposure in varying degrees to follow up on the training.Bit like you would not expect a young horse to learn dressage in a test,do it at home first,dogs are no different
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OK so those dogs weren't really ready to be out at that kind of event then?

This was so easy when I was a child. Dog does something you don't want. Smack dog. Dog stops. Praise dog.

Why isn't that 'right' any more, it seemed to work pretty well in the seventies?
 
My friends dog is currently being trained with an electric collar as she gets very vicious towards other dogs so she gets a beep first and if she's still aggressive she gets zapped. I'm very impressed but how it works.
 
There are a million different answers to this, depending on individual dog and handler and trigger and environment, but I suppose mine would be, from dealings with my own dogs and others, whether you praise, correct or ignore, if you don't know the root cause of the behaviour and your timing is not right, then you're better not exposing your dog to the trigger until you do and it is - bad timing can make everything worse.

Oh and have good power steering if you know your dog behaves rudely to others. Not something that enables dog to drag you along and endanger itself, you and others.
 
I'm absolutely no dog trainer but having rescued three street dogs, i've had to learn pretty darn quick how to gain control and quickly.

With semi-feral dogs patrolling the streets here who absolutely will attack if given the chance (they are extremely territorial and in breeding season, well it's interesting to say the least) I really struggled with keeping my dogs non aggressive and also non reactive since the result could mean you have a pack of 10 or more dogs attacking not only your own dogs but you as well.

What worked for us was short leads and a very confident way of handling, i.e. not expecting trouble from the feral dogs, walking with real purpose and not allowing our own dogs to so much as huff at them. Even a small huff would result in all concerned hackling up and looking like stegosaurus. A sharp check on the lead and a growl or a no, mostly did the trick but totally agree, timing is everything. If I was off for a second, all hell would break loose. Dog walks used to be extremely hard on my little brain.

My dogs are not permitted to so much as turn a hair and look at the other dogs or, at people! I have only had to use the end of my leather lead across the backside once or twice (I do NOT beat my dogs but when they have lunged and are in full attack mode it has been the only thing to break their concentration, it shocks more than hurts although I daresay it does sting a bit in fairness).

It has been absolutely necessary to get them to toe the line, most Indians are utterly terrified of dogs (due to rabies). This caused us massive headaches to start with since the moment our dogs (always on leads I might point out) are spotted, children and adults alike will shriek and run. This meant that our three very quickly became quite growly and frankly aggressive. Socialising with people here, just not possible. Nervous dogs, nervous people = recipe for disaster.

So nothing clever or ground breaking, I just won't have it. Made loads of mistakes initially, the biggest was flexi leads. We thought that since off lead exercise isn't possible here, we'd give them controlled freedom. It was awful, Bumble became a terror and would bark growl and even try to bite anyone walking remotely near us, Pepper was mostly good but loves to chase the chipmunks and cats and was super quick (caught me out a few times) Arnold was just loony and wanted to play with everyone and everything, he's a big lad and dragged me with me doing silly fast legs, utterly unable to stop, I had to grab a lamp post as I hurtled past and poor Nold was pulled up with quite a yank.

Sorry, I've rambled on a bit. Back to the OP (if I knew how to do smily faces i'd insert an embarrassed one now). I do not pat my dog for being aggressive, in fact he or she is told VERY firmly it is not acceptable. However, on the majority of times they are well behaved they are in no doubt whatsoever that I am utterly delighted with them. Big smiles and waggy tails all round
 
Not many people correct their dogs these days, good boy seems to go with any bad behaviour, having had a fear reactive dog and a dog aggressive dog their training was entirely different but the end result was the same both A1 around other dogs. I dont believe in knocking 7 tons of ***** out of my dogs but they are reprimanded if its called for if they misbehave there are consequences whether its my voice or a pop on the lead.
 
Dog owning seems to have gone the same way as parenting these days. Physical discipline is deemed very very wrong.
I don't for one second believe a dog or a child should be beaten but a well timed smack works wonders. You can't explain to either the reason something is wrong and honestly expect it to be understood.
 
I agree with Lexidhb, they should not of put their dogs in that situation in the first place.

Dogs react for various reasons, mostly fear and if the dog is fearful, the last thing you want to do is tell it off, particularly with an electric collar !
 
I agree that the dogs shouldn't be put in that position if they are going to be aggressive, but then if the owner rewards the aggression and doesn't see a problem with it then they wont think that its not appropriate will they!

One of my dogs likes her personal space, hence I tend to avoid taking her to busy dog events most of the time. I like to take her because its good socialisation and experience, but pick and choose very carefully. Most owners don't seem to understand that if they let their dog sit on her tail or stand so close to her she has nowhere to move that she might get a bit grumpy - just like those with horses at shows will often stand their horse right behind one with a red ribbon and wonders why they get kicked!

I often find its those with the little terriers who reward the behaviour or don't seem to care.
 
I cant see how using aggression (smacking) to treat aggression (true aggression, not a bit of growling/ lip curl/ get out my face) works, do you not just create an even more fearful dog?
 
CaveCanem said:
Oh and have good power steering if you know your dog behaves rudely to others. Not something that enables dog to drag you along and endanger itself, you and others.
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Power steering is very important! Betty is very dominant over other dogs, and I have no doubt that this would lead to aggression if the other dog was non submissive. Not that we are ever in the situation to find out.

I do not shy away from taking her to events where I know there will be other dogs for a few reasons:

1) I have good power steering and a very short lead
2) I am aware of the dogs around me and make other owners aware that we are not dog friendly
3) Within 10 mins of seeing other dogs everywhere she calms down and is basically non-reactive

Some dogs illicit a bigger response than others from her: In any case, when she is reactive the power steering comes into force and we keep on moving past. She doesn't get a smack, but is verbally reprimanded at the time. After the dog has passed she doesn't get any attention at all. In some cases she stops of her own accord and looks up at me very quiltily.
 
Again...all depends on the dog.

Smack one dog...he connects it to the unwanted behaviour and goes 'Whoops-not doing that again'

Another will not connect it and learn to gob off or attack with no clear warning/make the connection with the trigger and get worse.

Another will wet it's pants and collapse.

Another will consider the smack unfair, unwarranted or just a challenge and he will say 'Bring it on bitchface, let's dance! ' and then you're in A&E.

Not all kids in a classroom learn in the same way so I think it's unreasonable to treat a nervy farm bred sheepdog, a spoiled unsocialised lapdog or a big eastern European flock guardian in exactly the same way.

Another point is breeding....there is a lot more breeding for looks and fashion and money these days rather than for function or purpose.
IMO there are a lot more genetically weak nerved or reactive or just plain aggressive dogs out there now when in the past they would have been either not bred from, would have been kept solely for their purpose (hunting, racing, guarding etc) and would never have made their way into pet homes or they would have got the chop.
But it's not their fault and they're here now so we deal with them in the best way we can for that individual dog.
 
There are a number of avenues to explore with aggression, although much will depend on the cause:

- physical causes should always be considered, e.g. hormones, thyroid and vitamin deficiencies

- Adaptil helps some fear aggressive dogs

- NILIF helps as a general approach to life

- training counter behaviours

- gradual exposure to the triggers as in BAT
 
CaveCanem said:
Again...all depends on the dog.

Smack one dog...he connects it to the unwanted behaviour and goes 'Whoops-not doing that again'

Another will not connect it and learn to gob off or attack with no clear warning/make the connection with the trigger and get worse.

Another will wet it's pants and collapse.

Another will consider the smack unfair, unwarranted or just a challenge and he will say 'Bring it on bitchface, let's dance! ' and then you're in A&E.

Not all kids in a classroom learn in the same way so I think it's unreasonable to treat a nervy farm bred sheepdog, a spoiled unsocialised lapdog or a big eastern European flock guardian in exactly the same way.

Another point is breeding....there is a lot more breeding for looks and fashion and money these days rather than for function or purpose.
IMO there are a lot more genetically weak nerved or reactive or just plain aggressive dogs out there now when in the past they would have been either not bred from, would have been kept solely for their purpose (hunting, racing, guarding etc) and would never have made their way into pet homes or they would have got the chop.
But it's not their fault and they're here now so we deal with them in the best way we can for that individual dog.
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Exactly.And CPT nothing really has changed..substitute "power steering" with about turns ,praise after compliance ..they get it.Every breed so different,if I applied tactics used on brickheaded bull terriers to ,say,a Cavalier,it would have a nervous breakdown. With bull terriers too,deeper praise...ie food....impresses the "good boy" bit deeper and quicker.Yes,I DO use the dreaded check chain and a long training lead,because it works on this breed.A lot of people in bull terriers almost revel in how badly behaved their dog is,to cap it all putting it in a bloody harness. Trouble is that for all the well behaved ones the public will remember the bad ones every time.
 
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I was watching the American version of "Bring Out the Dogs" (have I got that title right??) the other evening, about police dogs and handlers in the USA. I wonder if anyone else noticed the police dog on a leash which was baying at a criminal? Because of its frustrations at not being able to bite the criminal, it looked as if it would take a bite out of the handler at any moment! It kept turning back and making aggressive moves towards the handler. Strange and rather alarming. Either the dog had a mental problem or it had been badly trained (which would not surprise me!).
 
It's not unusual for a dog to redirect. It's not ideal but it happens, for a number of reasons. Even stepping into a small pet dog fight can result in a redirected or misdirected bite if their blood is up.
 
CaveCanem said:
It's not unusual for a dog to redirect. It's not ideal but it happens, for a number of reasons. Even stepping into a small pet dog fight can result in a redirected or misdirected bite if their blood is up.
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I agree with this, in a highly charged situation the dog can get over aroused and if it cant snack on the criminal it has to go somewhere. I had a dog that did this, it was sheer frustration on his part, if I popped him to correct him he would come up the lead at me, with a good ex police dog trainer I learnt how to stop him from getting to that stage. Luckily he never bit me but with the wrong handling he could have.
 
EAST KENT said:
Exactly.And CPT nothing really has changed..substitute "power steering" with about turns ,praise after compliance ..they get it.Every breed so different,if I applied tactics used on brickheaded bull terriers to ,say,a Cavalier,it would have a nervous breakdown. With bull terriers too,deeper praise...ie food....impresses the "good boy" bit deeper and quicker.Yes,I DO use the dreaded check chain and a long training lead,because it works on this breed.A lot of people in bull terriers almost revel in how badly behaved their dog is,to cap it all putting it in a bloody harness. Trouble is that for all the well behaved ones the public will remember the bad ones every time.
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The first dog looked like a white staffie but was very big for a staffie. Possibly bull terrier cross without the bull terrier convex head? The second pair were Westies, purebred I'm sure. In both cases the 'trigger' dog didn't get within several feet of them, but the aggressors went beserk!!
 
I poke mine sharply with a finger and say 'oi!' Quietly. The little one will stop doing whatever he's doing immediately and look cowed. The big one is more difficult. he's not aggressive as such, never starts trouble, but will always watch other dogs if they are at all in his vicinity and it can be difficult to divert him from that. I grab him by the scruff if we have to pass close (narrow path, vets etc).

There is a chap by us whose dog has no recall and bolts at ours flat out. Luckily it's always stopped a short distance away, and I'm alerted to his entirely useless hollering of its name 'keeeeeraaaah' long before I see it, and can get mine on leads. Same with a nasty little terrier who kept trying to grab my big lad's back leg while a teenage boy owner ambled over slowly, ignoring the evidence in front of him and saying 'she's friendly'. No. She isnt. She's out of control and you don't care. I had to maintain a rictus grin while stopping mine trying to mete out his own justice. Aggression shouldn't be tolerated regardless of the size of the dog. I now conclude my rant.
 
I was bitten at a show I was walking along a walkway and a man was walking another way with a medium sized black dog on one of retractable leaders as we passed it lunged at my dog who jumped behind me and to the other side ( he's no fighter ) the leader , 'grew' as it was not locked and the dog sunk its teeth into my quad just above the knee ruining my breeches leaving a bite and a huge bruise the man did not even stop it gave me a terrible fright I was shaking and others people had to come and help me I just don't know why anyone would bring dogs like that somewhere like a show let alone keep it on a retractable lead .
It's left me very nervous of strange dogs in such situations .
 
That's really shocking Goldenstar.

My bitch is fine with every dog in the world when with my husband, but when with me, because I tense up and expect trouble, she will start barking and lunging. No amount of telling her not to gets the message across. She doesn't trust me, doesn't respect me and thinks she knows best so kicks off against the perceived threat. I distract her with treats and now she associates other dogs with really nice things and so instantly starts paying me attention and doesn't go into hellhound mode.

I feel such a fluffy for doing this, but it really works with her. It does look like I reward her for her bad behaviour, though. I don't take her places with lots of other dogs. Not fair on any of us!
 
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