Corrective shoeing for lameness?

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Welly

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Hi, my CB X has been on box rest for a check ligament for the last 6 months when we noticed he was slightly lame on both fronts when turning a circle but sound in a straight line. The vet was called and it was thought that he had started up with ringbone we have had him on Danilon just one a day and he seems fine. To put my mind at rest we have had xrays done to day and to our suprise there seems to be no obvious changes in the bones. The only thing that has shown up is that he has a foot that turns in (which he has always had) and his foot balance is very wrong collapsed heels. My question is has anyone had this happen to them, could this be the cause of his lameness and is there hope that with correct shoeing he might come sound again.
 
Welly said:
could this be the cause of his lameness and is there hope that with correct shoeing he might come sound again.
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Definitely, your first job is to change whoever you've been employing to look after his feet for the most highly recommended person in your area - farrier or barefoot trimmer. In fact, I'd interview a few and canvas opinions on how they'd help your horse, then decide who you think is making the most sense.
 
Had our WB in for xrays and nerve blocks wed and today with problems in his feet.Seems like the coffin joint has some DJD,but he also dishes on the nearside,and the foot is naturally badly balanced.Xrays showed the coffin/pedal and navicular bones as out of symmetry on the foot which dishes,so no great surprise there.Today he had nerve blocks to the coffin joint which after taking effect showed a huge improvement so Vet now concentrating on treatment and remedial shoeing.He already has natural balanced shoes on his fronts,but there is scope to cut back the toes some more and raise the heels.He is having joint injections next Friday,plus adequan injections every 4 days.Farrier is talking to the Vet and looking at the xrays to make sure he knows exactly how to balance his feet.Fingers crossed.
 
Welly said:
his foot balance is very wrong .... collapsed heels ... could this be the cause of his lameness and is there hope that with correct shoeing he might come sound again.
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Yes corrective shoeing may work but there is a high chance that taking off his shoes and letting him grow feet to match his asymmetric body will bring him sound more quickly. It is particularly effective with rebuilding collapsed heels and with allowing the hoof capsule to align to the bones inside it. If you want more information just say and we will tell you where to look.
 
Welly said:
The only thing that has shown up is that he has a foot that turns in (which he has always had) and his foot balance is very wrong collapsed heels. My question is has anyone had this happen to them, could this be the cause of his lameness and is there hope that with correct shoeing he might come sound again.
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Yes, yes and yes again. I drive a 3.5 hour round trip to get my 21 year old hunter shod......it's what keeps him going!

What part of the country are you in?
 
Just ensure your farrier is suitably trained and experienced to do the job,as not all of them can do remedial shoeing.I just hope and pray that our boy will be ok after treatment,otherwise both my daughter and i will be inconsolable.Can't afford another horse either,particularly not one that show jumped as well as our lad.Guess he may end up as a happy hacker.Best of luck with yours.
 
Wundahorse said:
Just ensure your farrier is suitably trained and experienced to do the job,as not all of them can do remedial shoeing.I just hope and pray that our boy will be ok after treatment,otherwise both my daughter and i will be inconsolable.Can't afford another horse either,particularly not one that show jumped as well as our lad.Guess he may end up as a happy hacker.Best of luck with yours.
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Please consider going barefoot (with the right advice) before giving up all hope. Even if you go back to shoes, a period of barefoot for a couple of months can do wonders.

The natural balance shoes your farrier are using were designed by a farrier who studied wild hooves in the US (just the same as the 'barefoot gurus' did) and they are an attempt to mimic the weight bearing properties of a barehoof. If they don't work for you - then the next logical step is to take the shoes off and let your horse grow the hoof he needs to balance himself. While there is circulation - there is always hope ;)

We (the Barefoot Taliban) are here if you need us:)
 
moorman said:
The natural balance of your horse can now ONLY be ascertained by seeing what is NATURALY intended.
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I'm going to start the "I love farriers like Moorman" club, anyone want to join me????


I have a horse who I took the shoes off in January this year. For six months he landed heavily on the outside of one forefoot. Gradually his foot "slipped to the side" and if he was being shod a farrier would have put it back under his leg. I let it grow how he appeared to want it to see where it went, being careful to do the right amount of work on abrasive surfaces to get him to trim it for himself. He now lands with both heels at the same time, with the weight clearly going straight up his leg to his shoulder. He obviously has a leg which is not perfectly aligned with his foot bones somewhere. Shoeing him with a symmetrical foot was causing unimaginable stresses to his joints. He now has a slightly bent foot and a straight leg, much better :)
 
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Santa Paws said:
I'm going to start the "I love farriers like Moorman" club, anyone want to join me????
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Me! :D

I'm so sorry to read your story op. For me the barefoot option with good support and a bespoke program and management is the best option and one I believe is worth considering seriously.
 
First things first I would change your farrier for a better 'hoof care proffessional'. I don't want to start the barefoot debate HOWEVER I think you should employ a farrier that would consider this a reasonable option.

I do agree with the others though... watching and considering how your horse moves naturally and how he shapes his own feet is very informative and rewarding.
Also consider nutrition. barefoot or not the horse needs a balanced diet to support health hof growth. Low sugar, low starch and supplemented with biotin, magnesium and brewers yeast.

Good luck!
 
In reply to alsiola I would suggest the following research to back-up my claim:

Chris Pollitts work on caudal lameness.(it was his work that got me into doing my own work on my referrals)
Pete Ramey’s work on caudal structure and the effects of shoes
Jamie Jackson on the same subject
I have yet to have a referral with caudal lameness that with the correct diet, conditions, time and trimming has not shown an improvement, yes in the passed I have shod for caudal lameness and been very successful, but now I know a better way, why shoe!
The only exception I would make to this is a permanent lameness, i.e. irreversible chronic navicular (not as common as it was due to the change in the design of machine made shoes in the 90’s and barefoot becoming more common)
As for the cause, I am in no doubt that any weakening of the rear 1/3 of a shod foot is due to the shoes
I know I keep referring to my site but the fig. 12 on this page shows a foot that became that way AND LAME because of the way it was shod.
It may be that the figure is more than 95%!!

Two you tubes you may want to see. (the second is with a dead leg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd77zwRRYLM&feature=relatedE due to the way it was shod

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2ZofRxB1bU&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL1AD8B6D7CEE3AE1E
 
I agree that the photo on your website shows a poorly trimmed and shod foot, and this horses lameness is almost certainly due to this in the main part. I also agree, as per video 1, that frog pressure is important.
However, I don't think that these back up a claim of "95% caudal third lameness caused by shoes". It may or may not be true, but the studies do not exist to prove this. I would personally say that caudal third lameness is a multifactorial problem, of which genetics, conformation and workload are all contributory factors. A history of a poorly balanced foot, usually collapsed/underrun heels, is often present and I would personally consider this a big factor.

I realise that 95% of the cases of caudal third lameness are in shod horses, however it is vital to remember that of the population of high risk horses, e.g. TB/WB type, broken back HPA, athletic workload, then probably 95% of these horses are shod. If we took 1000 horses of this type, then we would then expect to find 950 shod and 50 barefoot. If we assume an incidence of c1/3rd lameness of 10% in these horses, regardless of shod/barefoot status, then this would give 95 lame shod horses, and 5 lame barefoot horses. I.e. 95% of lame horses are shod. Does this demonstrate that 95% of those lamenesses were caused by shoeing? Well of course not because by the very definition of the example, the rate of lameness was the same in both groups (10%). The relative prevalence of the alleged risk factor skewed our results, and unless carefully interpreted could lead us to false conclusions.

The bottom line is there are a hell of a lot more shod horses out there, especially in already prone groups, so it should be no surprise to us that the majority of lameness is in shod horses. Until it can be demonstrated that the rate of lameness is higher in shod vs. unshod horses, we cannot justify saying that 1% of lameness is caused by shoes, let alone 95%.
 
alsiola, I can see we are dealing with a very grey area and that for me to state an exact figure was a mistake, although I have all the proof I need through my practice that it is so.
I fully understand your reasoning.
I do however take issue on 2 of your FACTS
1) you say ‘The bottom line is there are a hell of a lot more shod horses out there’ I think you will find this not to be the case if you are talking about general populations.
The work I do with my feral herd has certainly satisfied me that barefoot horses that are on the right diet, in the right conditions, and receiving good hoof care stay sounder longer
2) You say ‘especially in already prone groups,’ and ‘it is vital to remember that of the population of high risk horses, e.g. TB/WB type’
my main point that I would like to convey is that the prone groups as you call them are in your opinion not mine.
You will find that in the right conditions neither of these types have the HPA problem that you talk of.

I don’t think there should, or is a prone group, the 2 examples you give are both horses that are without doubt amongst the most common in the competitive equine world and I know that farriers all over the world are working hard to get the shoeing of these horses better.
The fact that they are doing so in some cases is surly evidence enough that the basic shoeing is the cause not the treatment.
I like you have no intention of starting a barefoot V shoeing debate and can only apologise if my enthusiasm has offended in any way.
 
alsiola said:
A history of a poorly balanced foot, usually collapsed/underrun heels, is often present and I would personally consider this a big factor.
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Alsiola it is unusual to find a poorly balanced foot, especially with collapsed or underrun heels in a working barefoot horse on a proper diet with adequate exercise and movement. Amongst working horses they are found almost exclusively in the shod population.

I know of none myself. The one barefoot horse I know well who had "navicular disease" diagnosed by Leahurst with MRI, had been in a livery yard with very little turnout/movement during the winter. He was sound after a month on full turnout in a rehab yard where his heels beefed up markedly with the exercise.

Shoes take the back half of the foot out of contact with the floor, and by doing so it is the shoes which appear to weaken the back half of the foot and therefore appear to CAUSE the weak heels which result in caudal lameness. The horse in the above example had not been trimmed properly and had also grown himself a "shoe" of horn taking his frog out of contact with the floor, ironically because he had such good strong feet in the first place. The only other barefoot horse I know of to develop caudal lameness (actually to relapse after being sound) also had a peripherally loaded foot. These lame barefoot horses add to the impression that it is peripheral loading - ie a shoe, which is the main cause of caudal lameness.

The fact that the vast majority of horses with caudal lameness in shoes can be brought sound by removing them (even when medication and remedial shoeing have failed) does tend to strengthen the conclusion, perhaps erroneous, that it was the shoes which caused the lameness in the first place.

I share your desire for some proper large scale studies, but I noted from our previous exchanges on remedial shoeing for laminitics that you were happy to rely on studies of ten horses with no control group of unshods. I would have thought that Moorman's experience was a great deal more significant than that.
 
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I can appreciate the arguments for bare foot,but am in a quandary myself as we need to shoe ours, as to hack anywhere entails road work.Furthermore,at our yard the owners put down stone chippings in most areas around the paddocks,and this is painful for unshod horses.Our Vet believes corrective shoeing is the best option for our WB,in tandem with treatment.She is an experienced Vet whose opinion i do value.
 
Wundahorse said:
I can appreciate the arguments for bare foot,but am in a quandary myself as we need to shoe ours, as to hack anywhere entails road work.Furthermore,at our yard the owners put down stone chippings in most areas around the paddocks,and this is painful for unshod horses.Our Vet believes corrective shoeing is the best option for our WB,in tandem with treatment.She is an experienced Vet whose opinion i do value.
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Roadwork is great for barefoot horses. The more you do the stronger the feet get. None of my three horses have the slightest problem with car parks in the local area made of rubble and my own stone gateways and local tracks of limestone chip. I hunt a barefoot horse, regularly galloping up tracks made up of crushed brick.


I am far from alone, in fact apart from the size of hedges my hunter jumps, I'm quite common :)

It is all down to food, lifestyle and correct work.

If your WB is still lame after meds and shoeing please try taking his shoes off (with a correct diet and proper conditioning of his feet) before you have him put down. Meanwhile, if you are suffering sleepless nights from the stress of his illness, take a look at www.Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com to see the alternative available to you.
 
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Wundahorse said:
Our Vet believes corrective shoeing is the best option for our WB,in tandem with treatment.She is an experienced Vet whose opinion i do value.
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I came to being a "barefooter" unwillingly, dragged kicking and screaming pretty much. I'm so traditional in my background its not true (well so it CPTrayes for that matter!!)

The critical question to keep asking your vet is what will her "best option" CURE for your horse, and keep asking it until she tells you the truth which is "nothing" it will just mask the pain the horse feels for a while, until it returns and you have to make further adjustments to the shoeing package again.

Believe me, I loved having shod horses, it was easy, I had no "foot" responsibility and didn't have to worry about what I could do when, what to feed, etc etc. But, losing horses in their early teens to bilateral front foot lameness is not OK, its a manmade degenerative condition and once I understood that I couldn't continue to have a horse shod for its lifetime.

Now, I don't necessarily advocate that being unshod forever is the only way, but if I shod a horse, it would be for a few months, to enable them to do something they couldn't do unshod, then I'd get them off and rehabilitate the feet to their natural shape again.

So the same is true for you, if you want to rehabilitate your horse and return him to soundness, barefoot is really the best option for him, it doesn't have to be forever, but once you've tried it you may not want to shoe again.

The decision is yours.
 
Firstly thank you for all your replies to my post It has been interesting reading. It seems barefoot shoeing is like marmite you love it or hate it, for me I have not made up my mind yet. I only gave very brief details the other day about my boy due to time and perhaps I should have given more info. My 15 year old horse has always been shod, always had a foot that turned in and had never been lame even with the Check Ligament. My boy did his CL back in May while in the field mucking about and it was decided to take off his shoes and keep him in, to begin with on complete box rest and then walking about in our yard. All seemed to be going well until last month when we noticed he was sore when turning round. My vet thought that he was starting up with ringbone and suggested the Danilon to keep him pain free and we also had him shod to rule out bruised feet. Some days he is almost sound and on others he can hardly walk. We have since had him nerve blocked and x-rayed and nothing has showed up apart from he is worst on the foot that turns in and it has collapsed a little in the heel which is to be addressed. There is no evidence of soft tissue damage and the CL has healed well. So what to make of this - the horse was barefoot for 4 months and with appropriate trimming his feet were allowed to grow; this is when he went lame. As for the barefoot discussion I think horses are all different and what suits one is not right for another - it’s a case of trial and error to find out what is right for your animal, I just wish I could find what’s right for my boy. I would love to hear any more opinions, thanks again.
 
My WB is still waiting for his front shoes to be put back on,and i notice he is quite sore when he walks over the stony ground.I will do as our Vet suggested and go down an adapted remedial shoeing route.He only went lame when he chased the dog and tripped,but guess there was a problem anyway,as indicated by xrays.Have not wanted to think about PTS,if he fails to improve.
 
Welly said:
Firstly thank you for all your replies to my post It has been interesting reading. It seems barefoot shoeing is like marmite you love it or hate it, for me I have not made up my mind yet. I only gave very brief details the other day about my boy due to time and perhaps I should have given more info. My 15 year old horse has always been shod, always had a foot that turned in and had never been lame even with the Check Ligament. My boy did his CL back in May while in the field mucking about and it was decided to take off his shoes and keep him in, to begin with on complete box rest and then walking about in our yard. All seemed to be going well until last month when we noticed he was sore when turning round. My vet thought that he was starting up with ringbone and suggested the Danilon to keep him pain free and we also had him shod to rule out bruised feet. Some days he is almost sound and on others he can hardly walk. We have since had him nerve blocked and x-rayed and nothing has showed up apart from he is worst on the foot that turns in and it has collapsed a little in the heel which is to be addressed. There is no evidence of soft tissue damage and the CL has healed well. So what to make of this - the horse was barefoot for 4 months and with appropriate trimming his feet were allowed to grow; this is when he went lame. As for the barefoot discussion I think horses are all different and what suits one is not right for another - it’s a case of trial and error to find out what is right for your animal, I just wish I could find what’s right for my boy. I would love to hear any more opinions, thanks again.
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Can you post pics of his hooves? Side view and solar view?

Most of us who love the marmite of BF (shoeing???) have got there by hook or by crook when we had no where else to turn. Then, once we'd witnessed how very clever the hooves are - we've learnt as much as we can out of pure fascination. (However I got into BF as I was too cheap to pay for shoes;)). There is such a perception in the horse world that hooves are weak and flimsy and they need improving and protecting - it's such a shame:(

As you say, horses ARE all different - but their bio-mechanics and hoof anatomy are the same. You said in your OP that the hoof balance was wrong and his heels had collapsed. These are very common symptoms in long term shod horses. Without the correct bio-mechanics via the heel first landing, the tendons/ligaments and joints take the concussion that would normally be distributed by the hoof capsule. Add a conformation fault that the hoof isn't allowed to stabilise because of shoes, and you will often find something breaks down.

Going BF full time is one thing, but every farrier textbook will state that giving the hooves a break from shoeing is the gold standard, even if you intent to go back to shoes.

Taking the shoes off for 4 months while on restricted exercise likely won't have given him enough time and stimulation to grow a whole new hoof capsule the way he wanted it.

If he did bruise his soles while BF, I would be concerned that either the diet was off or the sole was being trimmed - as these are the common causes of bruised soles in a BF horse. With the correct diet and trim they will lay down enough sole to protect themselves even in the most extreme of ground.

If you want to remain shod and that works for you both, then brill. But if you wanted to try BF again - there are tricks to learn in order to make it work for the horse.
 
Wundahorse said:
My WB is still waiting for his front shoes to be put back on,and i notice he is quite sore when he walks over the stony ground.I will do as our Vet suggested and go down an adapted remedial shoeing route.He only went lame when he chased the dog and tripped,but guess there was a problem anyway,as indicated by xrays.Have not wanted to think about PTS,if he fails to improve.
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What's adapted remedial shoeing?

If he does fail to improve, just promise me you'll speak to Nic Barker (Rockley Farm) before you PTS? Pleeeeease....
 
He already has natural balance shoes,but vet wants his toes cut back more and his heels raised.I also want to see how he gets on with the joint injections and adequan.If this fails and he becomes more lame i will be in a dilemma.He is a lovely boy and i really need to give him a chance.Farrier went to see the xrays today,and talk to the Vet,and they have come up with a plan.
 
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