Corruption in Showing....

[WelshD]

AA No matter how many times I hear your comments about your lovely hunter I will always be amazed by and admire what you acheived

Its a fiercely competative world and unfortunately horses are easily recognised by the judges and they are sometimes damned if they do and damned if they dont place it I guess. It would take a brave judge to put an unknown up over a well seasoned well known pony, they may well even doubt themself in that situation so sometimes I suppose its as well to go for a result that will be almost forgone and therefore be more easily accepted by some even if not massively popular

I wouldnt want to be the judge in a class of Welsh D's at a big show for example - The judges are very brave to stick their necks out really when you think about it, must be a nigh on impossible task

I've no doubt there is facey judging, I showed ponies as a kid and saw it even then so I dont think its a particularly new thing I just think people question things more now

I have just kitted my 11hh out with tack suitable for a lead rein pony and his breaking in has started - I dont know if I am crazy to want that life for him and open him up to such criticism but I am going in to it with a trusting soul and the faith that we will meet more good judges than bad ones lol

 

[Ahrena]

I used to do a lot of showing with my old mare.

She wasn't much of a jumper unless hunting and she was good at it so we had a good shot and did fairly well in small riding horse classes.

Two occasions spring to mind..

One when I was first starting out and I entered a wh class (before I really understood 'types').

The judge refused to ride a horse as it was bucking all over the place..then placed it first.

The second was very disappointing.
I took her to the trailblazer finals in the 'show horse' class. The first day was great, the placings I thought was fair, I think we came 5th or something in a large class which I felt was fair.

Second day our judge was drunk he stank of booze and kept swigging from a hip flask! Honest to god!

He announced at the top of his voice when a hunter type horse did it's show that "it's not much of a show horse is it?" then placed it first, and it wasn't even on the bit.

Then in my style and performance class he wasn't watching the individual shows properly which i thought was ridiculous considering there are required movements, with marks deducted if they aren't carried out - how would he know if he didn't watch??

I should of reported it really. Unfortuntely my mare was diagnosed with severe navicular soon after and that was her last show.

 

[YorksG]

Was having a discussion about this with the farrier one day, we came to the conclusion that those people who are convinced their horse should win, should just go and buy their horse a red rosette. It would save all the angst they have about whether the judging is fair.

 

[SO1]

I think showing is probably the most amateur friendly of all the equine sports. If you take HOYS as the highest level of showing and compare the costs of purchasing and training a top show horse to say an eventer, SJ or dressage horse, it is much less. Others will probably disagree but I don't think you need the same amount of riding ability either. I imagine it is harder to train to be able to ride at advanced eventing or grand prix dressage than to be able to ride a HOYS level show horse.

A well schooled show horse should be able to go nicely for a ride judge who has never ridden it before, this means that an average rider should be able to get on and at least have a safe ride.

Amateurs do get in the top 10 in showing quite often, how many amateurs get in the top 10 of the highest level eventing, show jumping, dressage probably less.

I wonder if the problems with people saying things are unfair is partially related to the diversity of people involved in showing at all levels which you don't get so much in the other equine disciplines and people having different expectations as to what is exceptable.

I am more into dressage now as I don't like the waiting around and with dressage you get a set time and also it is easier to improve as you get feedback from the judge which I can then work on with my instructor.

 

[natalia]

Lol at some of these! I show my two coloureds at county and to be honest I find all the bitching and back stabbing very tiresome. Far better to rise above it, smile and be polite and then make my merry way home again. I've got two very nice cobs, but they only did a select amount of shows last year as were both very green. This year I am still undecided as by the time I have them both up and running I want to give them the best chance of a RIHS ticket in their first couple of outings. They are plenty good enough but I don't want to embarrass myself and take out anything that's going to go a rather bright shade of green in the ring. I have found that most top producers are actually really friendly, I spend most of my time giggling anyway, so I think I'm fairly non threatening. I have walked in on many conversations of bitching while out at shows and to be honest it's a but boring so if you don't listen and encourage it then you won't get wrapped up in it. I have enough of a life to get on with without worrying about any one else's poxy show pony!

 

[horsesatemymoney]

That is true - I've judged locally on a few occasions



The problem with this bit is that you often get asked (told!) to judge whatever classes are available. Nobody want's to judge LR/FR IME - them mothers are seriously scary when their precious doesn't at least place and they aren't afraid to say so. The coloured class is another nightmare especially inhand - everything from 10hh to 17hh, yearling to veteran and every shape /breed of equine - try finding your criteria for placing without getting abused!

Honestly, JMHO the reason that so many judges are so bad at local level is that it is a fairly thankless (unpaid) job. When I judge I get up early on a Sunday, do all my chores by 8am then get dressed in smart clothes and drive up to 20 miles to be on a showground by 8:30/9 am. I then stand in whatever the weather is for anything between 7 & 9 hours with a couple of tea breaks and most likely a burger van lunch. If I am lucky I get petrol money but usually a thank you and a bottle of wine. That was fine and still would be but for many (not all) of the competitors and their supporters. Too many people are RUDE to judges, fair enough you don't have to like their decision and a decent judge should be happy to explain it if asked politely but arguing with a judge in a line up is not going to make them change their mind! In fact, I have moved people down the line or asked them to leave the ring when they have started gobbing off at me - well, if you want to call me a stupid bitch, I'll show how a bitch behaves What also doesn't help is that organisers are so stuck for judges that they'll take anyone who appears to be able to walk and talk at the same time! But who's fault is that?

The best one ever was a few years ago at a very small RC show in the dreaded coloured (ridden) class - a huge turnout, about 30 horses in a small ring - you can imagine the chaos of the first walk, trot, canter! So I pulled them all in in open order to do their show. Nearly 2 hours later I've sent them all out again to place them. The 'lady' who had shown second objected noisily to being put down to sixth on her young mare who was very nice but weak behind and was hauled into a false outline. Her mate who wasn't placed on a narrow cob whose front legs went up and down rather than forward joined in the protest. The unforgivable thing they did was start on the rider in third who was on a lovely HW cob, both rider and horse perfectly turned out (the only reason he hadn't won was that he bucked into canter in his show but the rest was immaculate) because he was wearing a discrete toning numnah and this pair reckoned that was incorrect. Note please that the mare was in a black GP saddle with a flash bridle and the cob was wearing a black show saddle that was too wide and as a result pinching, no wonder he didn't move well! He also had an ill fitting diamante brow band. After 20 minutes of this whining and wailing IN THE RING I eliminated them and asked them to leave the ring. Oh, the language - even I was nearly shocked Plus their supporters also felt able to join in. There was also a similar event in the LR class (different judge!) earlier. Now, tell me why I've refused to judge for that RC since? Especially since the best the show secretary felt she could do was titter nervously and say that the competitor was a bit OTT...

Because of people like that you're paying £10 a class to be judged by people whose main qualification is their ability to take abuse not their knowledge of horses...

Rather you than me! There's no way my patience would take that!

 

[Suziq77]

If your horse is good enough it is possible to do well. We found the most of the pro's to be very friendly and Robert Walker was particularly pleasant and even offered a few pearls of wisdom. David Tatlow was also very encouraging and again gave us valuable guidance. Both showmen gave us the advice whilst in the line up in the ring.

Absolutely true - but it is very rare for an amateur to have a good enough eye to find an unknown horse and to produce and ride it well enough to gain the respect of the professionals. I agree most of them are very approachable and happy to share their knowledge if people ask them.

As my horse galloped past I heard the producer comment -'that's the horse who is taking all our prizes, blxxxy amatuers need to realise we do this for a living'. My horse stood 2nd in the open, reserve in the championship and took the amatuer H/W and the championship. The producer followed us back to the lorry and asked how much I wanted for the horse. He was not and never will be for sale...

The second year we were there the ride judge saw us in the evening and said to us the horse would not have been beaten had a pro been on him. We know the horse was the best and we are proud of what he did for us, and with that comment from the judge we retired the horse.

I know from some of your other posts how proud you are of your stunning horse - please post the photo of him in the tent? I never get tired of seeing it.

Showing is corrupt on some levels, but if you work hard enough for long enough and take on board and learn from all the experiences you have you might just might get your moment.... I hope I get mine.

 

[benson21]

I used to go to a very local showing show, only just down the road from us, so easy to go to, and I thought it would be good to gain some experience.
To begin with, Donovan was doing well, most of the time in the rosettes, which was lovely.
Then he had to change classes because of his age, and thats were the problems started. he was being judged as a 5 yr old, and was up against much older ponies, and we were told he was marked down because of his age, as he was so young. I didnt get that at all, why open the class to 5 yrs and above, if you were going to be marked down because he was only 5?
The judge also, blatently obviously, liked the bigger ponies. You only had to look at the final line up, the largest was ALWAYS first, and the smallest ALWAYS last. Didnt matter how many in the class, didnt matter what any of them done, that was always the order. You could see the judge, standing in the middle, watching every step of the individual show of the larger, but when the smaller ones had their turn, she would be chatting to her assistant.
Like I say, it ws good experience for us and Donovan, but I refuse yto pay £16 per class, for the judge not even to look at us doing our bit, because of his size, or age.

 

[Heathersedge]

I usually lurk in here and post occasionally over in the breeders forum but felt I had to comment. My sister and I both work fulltime for a living and show as a hobby as complete amateurs. We breed our own horses which we compete both inhand and under saddle as well as the odd one we have bought ( usually just from a photo over the phone!). We have been very lucky and have done extremely well with them, having won HOYS with a homebred. It is possible with a lot of hard work and some luck along the way. We have watched and listened and learnt loads, what to do and how to do it and which judges prefer what types etc. Money is hard to come by and we have don't have enough of it or time off work to waste either chasing about when judges prefer a different type to the one we are sat on. I would say judging at unaffiliated showing seems to be the most 'random' and when you move up a step the judges are usually panel judges with a lot more knowledge and experience. They will give you feedback ( which you might not want to hear) but it will be constructive and hopefully give you something to work on. I read a bit about manners in inhand classes, yes they count! a bit of youthfulness in a youngstock class is ok but you should be able to see the horses true paces and be able to have it stand for the judge so they can assess its conformation. Showing was something we came into late in our horsey lives after competing in Sj and eventing and I used to think it was like watching paint dry but I now realise how much of a skill it is to get a horse to go well for a ride judge and how much fun showing is - I would say its the most soicial and friendly of all the disciplines we have been involved in. Sorry for such a long post

 

[AdorableAlice]

Absolutely true - but it is very rare for an amateur to have a good enough eye to find an unknown horse and to produce and ride it well enough to gain the respect of the professionals. I agree most of them are very approachable and happy to share their knowledge if people ask them.



I know from some of your other posts how proud you are of your stunning horse - please post the photo of him in the tent? I never get tired of seeing it.

Showing is corrupt on some levels, but if you work hard enough for long enough and take on board and learn from all the experiences you have you might just might get your moment.... I hope I get mine.

Thank you for such kind words. Here is the boy in the tent. I have some much nicer pictures, but they are ones we bought so I guess I cannot post them.

I think there is a degree of corruption in showing and one particular moment stands out for me. Royal Shrewsbury, a nice 2 day show with HOYS tickets galore up for grabs. No amatuer classes for the hunters and the open classes had plenty of entries listed. We parked our little leyland daf next door to Katie Jerrams small housing estate of a lorry, there must have been 8 on it.

The L/W's were first and our ringside expert reported back to us that only 3 horses out of an entry of 20+ were forward. Very odd because the lorries and the horses were certainly on the ground. Of course that very short class made it a big scramble to get our horse ready for the next class but we did it. Our boy had more servants than Miss Jerram had for her bucket load of horses !!

The great and the good of the M/W's were entered but just 4 made it into the ring and as I walked down the horsewalk to watch I overhead the words
'blood wagon', and the penny dropped. Just 2 horses came forward for the H/W.

Have a guess who was tested.

Here is a glimpse of the work that goes in prior to competing

 

[1stclassalan]

I've no experience of corruption but as it's everywhere - even on the small scale of being one of the "in" crowd all I have to add - it's so easy to get away with eh?

Your horse and you are instantly recogniseable as soon as you arrive on the showground - most scoresheets are already made up by then! Same with dressage - I've seen many a big name fail to execute entirely yet still get a mark!!! Ridculous - until there's a judging system that a computer can score - it will always be the same.

If you don't like it - change to an achievement sport - no argument in jumping - if the pole is still in the cup and you've gone over it faster than anyone else - no judge involved.

 

[mcnaughty]

With regards to in hand showing - I agree that manners should be judged but I can only comment on experience here at affiliated level and local. I attended PUK Winter Champ recently (will not say which year because it will be very obvious to those in the know who I am talking about!). The winner of the In Hand Championship spent most of it's time on its back legs, in fact when the judge called the handler out they stood for a moment in very obvious disbelief because of the animal's behaviour! Also I attended the Chiltern and Thames Champs - here too a Welsh D stallion behaved incredibly badly, kicking out, rearing up, bucking and did not show one good stride of trot but it was called in 1st.

I agree, it should be manners - especially when the PUK champ was a riding pony - how the hell is a kid going to cope with that! But manners are very obviously NOT taken into account in-hand!