Cost of podiatrist vs farrier?

[Caol Ila]

Is there a flaw in the training, for farriers and EPs, when it comes to barefoot trimming? Is a good trim just really hard to do?

It seems like it should not be a total crapshoot to find a hoof care professional who can, at the very least, maintain the feet without making the horse lame. You Had One Job. Of course, some people will be truly brilliant and can work with horses who have complex soundness issues, but anyone calling themselves a trimmer, with some kind of training behind them, should be able to not f*ck up a trim on a sound horse.

It should be no harder than finding a good vet. But it definitely is.

 

[j1ffy]

Use whoever keeps your horse sound and moving well & gives you the level of support you need / would like. I will always say that the absolute LEAST important thing my trimmer does is actually trimming the feet. He assesses movement, picks up on how it is changing for better or worse, helps me plan how often we think horse should see the physio, tells me if vet workup might be needed for subtle things that aren't moving in the right direction, will advise on weight, diet, exercise plan, foot conditioning, pros & cons of hoofboots & if anything we've tweaked from last time is / isn't working. Some trimmers & farriers will offer this level of service & some won't (& tbh all some people do want is someone to come, trim feet, leave horse sound, job done)

I'm lucky enough to have the same 'trimmer' as Boulty. He probably wouldn't even describe himself as a 'trimmer' as that is the last thing he does, and his ideal is to help the horse to trim itself as far as possible. He films their landing; advises on how to improve the health of the hoof whether through diet, exercise or environment; talks through how the hoof is responding to forces / conformation; and is always on hand if I have an issue (including a phone call last Friday evening after a vet visit for Chilli). He charges £55 if multiple horses on one yard, or £60 otherwise and visits my area once every three months.

I've not used an EP and tbh would be very loathe too unless they came with personal references from people I trust due to the issues mentioned by YCBM. The local farriers do an ok trim but don't check the hoof balance as thoroughly as the 'trimmer', don't seem to understand the holistic nature of hoof care, and have left my horses sore on occasion.

 

[j1ffy]

Is there a flaw in the training, for farriers and EPs, when it comes to barefoot trimming? Is a good trim just really hard to do?

It seems like it should not be a total crapshoot to find a hoof care professional who can, at the very least, maintain the feet without making the horse lame. You Had One Job. Of course, some people will be truly brilliant and can work with horses who have complex soundness issues, but anyone calling themselves a trimmer, with some kind of training behind them, should be able to not f*ck up a trim on a sound horse.

It should be no harder than finding a good vet. But it definitely is.

I think it's because of the emphasis on the trim rather than the whole horse. If a trimmer (whether farrier or EPA) trims according to some sort of 'ideal' hoof shape they are missing the bigger picture.

 

[paddy555]

Is there a flaw in the training, for farriers and EPs, when it comes to barefoot trimming? Is a good trim just really hard to do?

It seems like it should not be a total crapshoot to find a hoof care professional who can, at the very least, maintain the feet without making the horse lame. You Had One Job. Of course, some people will be truly brilliant and can work with horses who have complex soundness issues, but anyone calling themselves a trimmer, with some kind of training behind them, should be able to not f*ck up a trim on a sound horse.

It should be no harder than finding a good vet. But it definitely is.

re your first para not all trimmers/farriers start off with a horse that has perfect feet. Many don't. Many need correction. There is no one "trim" there is the trim that that particular horse needs at that time. If there are problems to be dealt with there are questions as to the various ways of correcting them.
Of course there are poor trimmers and farriers. I have also come across some poor equine physios and poor saddle fitters and no doubt many other poor horse professionals. What if a horse is shod and lame afterwards. Nail bind. Is there a flaw in the training for farriers that he cannot even manage to nail a shoe on.

Trimming is far from black and white

re your final line. My horse couldn't eat one Sunday am. I got the vet out. Diagnosis botulism. PTS now. Nothing we can do.
I refused and he gave antibiotics. 2nd vet came a few days later and laughed at the botulism diagnosis for the horse which clearly had a throat infection and was responding to ABs.
You only had a sore horse, I could have had a dead one.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think it's because of the emphasis on the trim rather than the whole horse. If a trimmer (whether farrier or EPA) trims according to some sort of 'ideal' hoof shape they are missing the bigger picture.

I'll take your guy.

The EP had very holistic chat. He asked me about diet, management, watched the horses walk and trot up, took photos, talked about their gaits. It certainly seemed like he had a big picture approach, which I liked. The theory was good. The results disappointing.

Farrier simply does their feet for £30, but he does know his stuff. You just have to ask him.

Here's a question for the hoof gurus that's been percolating. When EP trimmed Fin (Sepember?), he noted that the horse was picking up little stones in his white line. I was aware and had been picking them out when I could. EP said this could be a major issue and trimmed the toes right back to the white line, which he said would help close it.

I was still picking rocks out of it for months.

When farrier next did the horse, he thought the white line wasn't actually a major problem. That was back in November, and I don't think I've had to fish a rock out of it since. He left most of the wall as-is and tidied up some of the flare.

I had changed his feed during that period. Took him off Agrobs Weisencobs and put him on Dengie grass nuts.

 

[Arzada]

For those who would like to learn more about horses feet or for those who don’t yet follow or know of him Mark Johnson is doing an online talk hosted by BHS Scotland on February 13th at 7pm.

Melandmanry if you have Facebook he is extremely interesting and knows his stuff. He also has a website www.mjfarrieranotherway.co.uk which is an interesting read.

He will also be at Horses Inside Out February 18 and 19 at Loughborough https://www.facebook.com/markjfarrier

 

[paddy555]

Here's a question for the hoof gurus that's been percolating. When EP trimmed Fin (Sepember?), he noted that the horse was picking up little stones in his white line. I was aware and had been picking them out when I could. EP said this could be a major issue and trimmed the toes right back to the white line, which he said would help close it.

I was still picking rocks out of it for months.

When farrier next did the horse, he thought the white line wasn't actually a major problem. That was back in November, and I don't think I've had to fish a rock out of it since. He left most of the wall as-is and tidied up some of the flare.

I had changed his feed during that period. Took him off Agrobs Weisencobs and put him on Dengie grass nuts.

I'm not sure what your question is or what has been "percolating"

are stones in the WL a problem, yes IMHO.
Do I trim to get rid of them, yes also.
Do I think your change of feed caused the problem, no.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

He will also be at Horses Inside Out February 18 and 19 at Loughborough https://www.facebook.com/markjfarrier

He’s a busy chap.

 

[Caol Ila]

Would you attempt to close white line by trimming back to the very edge of the white line?

 

[windand rain]

My farrier is fabulous he assesses movement before and after trimming, keeps feet balanced and the ponies movement correct. He has done the young ones from foals from 4 days old where needed. He is quick to say they don't need trimming at any point. He charges £25 per trim but has done remedial treatment on one foot free after one got a crack from the dry weather. He will also rasp round to tidy up for showing free if he is on the yard. He has been my farrier for 15 years I would hate to lose him. He will also let you drop by his house in an emergency and do any repairs

 

[paddy555]

Would you attempt to close white line by trimming back to the very edge of the white line?

who knows without having the foot in front of you.

Here's a question for the hoof gurus that's been percolating. When EP trimmed Fin (Sepember?), he noted that the horse was picking up little stones in his white line. I was aware and had been picking them out when I could. EP said this could be a major issue and trimmed the toes right back to the white line, which he said would help close it.

I was still picking rocks out of it for months.

When farrier next did the horse, he thought the white line wasn't actually a major problem. That was back in November, and I don't think I've had to fish a rock out of it since. He left most of the wall as-is and tidied up some of the flare.

The EP trimmed and tried to correct the WL sep in Sept. The farrier trimmed in Nov. correcting sep doesn't happen overnight it takes time. Did the work the EP did in Sept put the foot on the correct path so by Nov it was starting to resolve. If the farrier said in Nov the WL wasn't a major problem then perhaps the EP had been successful.

(I am not a great supporter of EPs but I wouldn't criticise one without knowing the circumstances)

 

[j1ffy]

My guy would always say to pick the stones out of the white line if it's wide enough to pick them up, but would also ask about diet as correct mineral balance can help the white line to tighten (additional magnesium is a standard starting point if it's not already being added). I can't imagine him trimming back to the white line but it's not been a major problem on mine.

 

[AntiPuck]

I pay £55 for my EP and she is absolutely worth it, really pays attention to everything in a way that none of the much cheaper farriers I'd used before did, and is very educational and reliable as well. The peace of mind is worth the extra cost to me.

The farriers never even watched my horse move and neither of them had actively worked on correcting her underrun heels. They came "highly recommended" by others. Mad.

 

[j1ffy]

I pay £55 for my EP and she is absolutely worth it, really pays attention to everything in a way that none of the much cheaper farriers I'd used before did, and is very educational and reliable as well. The peace of mind is worth the extra cost to me.

The farriers never even watched my horse move and neither of them had actively worked on correcting her underrun heels. They came "highly recommended" by others. Mad.

All the farriers who visit my yard seem to have been trained by the same person / forge. They're all good friends, play golf together etc. I've never seen any of them watch a horse move!

 

[paddy555]

I have never been any fan of the EP qualification. In the very early days it was trim-by- numbers (literally) and a qualification given after attending the same 5 day course 3 times. The good EPs learnt by experience and by taking other courses.


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I'm not a fan of the EP qualification and you did get the piece of paper after attending the same course many times and there was no worthwhile "test" that weeded out the poor. I was shocked by one person he passed.

However I don't agree on the trim by numbers. (taught by KC) I believe it was 12 or 13 if my memory serves me correctly. I thought that was pretty good but it was to teach people who knew very little to do a basic trim. The basic trim was required before they could go on and get the experience to trim to what the foot needed.
What did appear to go wrong on "trim by numbers" was they he told us to go through each number in stages, what didn't appear to get through was that you checked each number stage. If didn't actually mean you had to do anything if all was `OK with that part.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not a fan of the EP qualification and you did get the piece of paper after attending the same course many times and there was no worthwhile "test" that weeded out the poor. I was shocked by one person he passed.

However I don't agree on the trim by numbers. (taught by KC) I believe it was 12 or 13 if my memory serves me correctly. I thought that was pretty good but it was to teach people who knew very little to do a basic trim. The basic trim was required before they could go on and get the experience to trim to what the foot needed.
What did appear to go wrong on "trim by numbers" was they he told us to go through each number in stages, what didn't appear to get through was that you checked each number stage. If didn't actually mean you had to do anything if all was `OK with that part.

The primary reason I disagree with "trim by numbers" is that it gave a set of measurements to trim a foot to irrespective of the horse to which it was attached. My favourite example is a friend whose horse had been hunting barefoot on the stone tracks of Exmoor for months when an extremely experienced EP (not knowing this) suggested that on the metrics he worked to, his feet would only stand up to light work at present and he needed boots and pads to improve them. Work recommendations were exceptionally cautious, boots and pads seemingly always advised, and in my view that advice prevented many horses from making improvements as quickly as they could, and some from improving at all.

The breaking point was probably when KC la Pierre made his trainees swear an oath of allegiance not to train with anyone else.

At that low point i would have called EP training a cult, not a profession.
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[ycbm]

Would you attempt to close white line by trimming back to the very edge of the white line?

You would if you felt that the stones getting in were a problem. It won't help the white line close, unless it's so bad it's creating leverage. What it does do is remove the trench they can get caught in, which that particular person must have felt necessary at the time. IME the closure of the white line will come more from diet/work than trim unless the hoof wall is too long, when reducing the height will remove some or all of the area of disconnection.
.

 

[paddy555]

The primary reason I disagree with "trim by numbers" is that it gave a set of measurements to trim a foot to irrespective of the horse to which it was attached. My favourite example is a friend whose horse had been hunting barefoot on the stone tracks of Exmoor for months when an extremely experienced EP (not knowing this) suggested that on the metrics he worked to, his feet would only stand up to light work at present and he needed boots and pads to improve them. Work recommendations were exceptionally cautious, boots and pads seemingly always advised, and in my view that advice prevented many horses from making improvements as quickly as they could, and some from improving at all.

The breaking point was probably when KC la Pierre made his trainees swear an oath of allegiance not to train with anyone else.


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you are right pads were at the forefront, taped on I believe.

however that is not how I remember trim by numbers. I don't remember being given a set of measurements as such. It was simply a logical way for a beginner to approach trimming a foot, each stage followed on from the last and people were taught to "map" the foot.
I do remember sitting though this when we had managed to get him over here for his first course. It was what we also did when sitting in a circle trimming cadavers and again out in groups of 3 putting the trim into practise on horses.

I can contrast this ordered and methodical approach to sitting through a 3 day strasser course and learning their totally chaotic version of cadaver trimming.

I am not sure what went wrong between KC's first course back in 2002 which I can only say was beyond brilliant and what happened afterwards. It just didn't make sense.
It did become a cult and he certainly got far too big for his boots and very arrogant. His way or the highway yet it was not like that with us. I suppose he must have been preparing the ground for setting up courses here and we were the very lucky guinea pigs.

After trimming by numbers we moved on (having all learnt the basic trim) and he trimmed some difficult horses with x rays and a lot of vet input (we had 2 vets on the course) it was pretty obvious that once one had learnt the basic trim, using the tools, handling the feet etc you would move onto doing more difficult things not just keep applying the same trim.
I had been trimming for years before the course so perhaps I had a different overview. I'm not sure why his trimmers never progressed as much as they should have.

At that low point i would have called EP training a cult,
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yes it did become like that to some however that first KC visit was so important as it was the first very big nail in the Strasser coffin.

 

[ycbm]

yes it did become like that to some however that first KC visit was so important as it was the first very big nail in the Strasser coffin.

So true, and very necessary.

 

[ycbm]

you are right pads were at the forefront, taped on I believe.

however that is not how I remember trim by numbers. I don't remember being given a set of measurements as such. It was simply a logical way for a beginner to approach trimming a foot, each stage followed on from the last and people were taught to "map" the foot.
I do remember sitting though this when we had managed to get him over here for his first course. It was what we also did when sitting in a circle trimming cadavers and again out in groups of 3 putting the trim into practise on horses.

I can contrast this ordered and methodical approach to sitting through a 3 day strasser course and learning their totally chaotic version of cadaver trimming.

I am not sure what went wrong between KC's first course back in 2002 which I can only say was beyond brilliant and what happened afterwards. It just didn't make sense.
It did become a cult and he certainly got far too big for his boots and very arrogant. His way or the highway yet it was not like that with us. I suppose he must have been preparing the ground for setting up courses here and we were the very lucky guinea pigs.

After trimming by numbers we moved on (having all learnt the basic trim) and he trimmed some difficult horses with x rays and a lot of vet input (we had 2 vets on the course) it was pretty obvious that once one had learnt the basic trim, using the tools, handling the feet etc you would move onto doing more difficult things not just keep applying the same trim.
I had been trimming for years before the course so perhaps I had a different overview. I'm not sure why his trimmers never progressed as much as they should have.



yes it did become like that to some however that first KC visit was so important as it was the first very big nail in the Strasser coffin.

Don't mistake me Paddy, all was not perfect in the NHCP camp at the time, either. Nic Barker went to the US for one short trip with Pete Ramey and came back accredited to train NHCP trimmers on the UK.

It was very much the wild west back then, but anything was better than that butcher of a vet Dr Strasser!
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[paddy555]

Don't mistake me Paddy, all was not perfect in the NHCP camp at the time, either. Nic Barker went to the US for one short trip with Pete Ramey and came back accredited to train NHCP trimmers on the UK.

It was very much the wild west back then, but anything was better than that butcher of a vet Dr Strasser!
.
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certainly was the wild west. You would have loved the Strasser 3 day course. I walked out when they told me my horse would never be as good as their strasser trimmed ones. Mine had done thousands of barefoot miles, I was too polite to point out that I couldn't even find a SOUND strasser trimmed one and that was why I was there.

They set up a group E mail for the participants and they were given the instruction to "go home and trim before you forget how" all were duly armed with 2 knives. They forgot to remove me from the E mail when I walked out. Well that was an interesting few days of e mails.

I bet people who read these last few posts here will wonder what we are both on but this was really as it was.

 

[GinaGeo]

Just to offer up another POV.

I am underway on the recently accredited Level 5 EPT course.

I chose to learn to trim because I was not happy with how my then navicular horse was being first shod and then trimmed by farriers. And on enquiring with the trained trimmers and podiatrists in my area discovered they all had full books so weren’t an option even I had wanted to go that way.

I chose to undertake the EPT course because it was accredited. Because it offered a holistic view and because it is one of the most rigorous training courses offered in this country.

There were flaws with the original Equine Podiatry training delivered in this country and the current trainers have done an awful lot of their own research and training to improve upon that.

It isn’t perfect, and the end result is still down to how interested and dedicated the individual is.

As with all professions, not all farriers are equal and not all podiatrists are either.

Equine Podiatrists who are members of the Equine Podiatry Association (It isn’t a protected title, so you would need to check) do have to be insured, trained to a specific level, passed exams of a level and undertaken a minimum number of CPD hours to keep their membership and they are regulated. If you do have an issue you can take it up with them.

And if you are using a trimmer do check their credentials, there are some truly appalling training offerings with some very questionable grasps of anatomy and physics.

In the end it is all down to personal choice.

 

[Melandmary]

As someone else pointed out there are good and bad so called professionals in every trade and it is up to the individual to do their research on who they choose to use. I know that if I got a bad service or my ponies suffered from using any physio/ farrier/ saddle fitter they wouldn’t be coming back again.
my current farriers are reliable, come out in an emergency, have not made my ponies sore footed. But, they don’t comment or advuse on their feet. Don’t look at how they move, are not particularly interested in how they are coping since having their shoes off ….these are things I would like support with without feeling like I am an overbearing owner and that is why I thought I would try a podiatrist. I am not on a yard where there are other people to ask , I rely on the professionals round me- and this forum to help me make informed choices and my farriers aren’t really helping me with that like some of the ones mentioned on here. Apart from sound feet I would like help with choosing hoof boots, finding the digital pulse in heavy feathered ponies, being shown how to rasp between trims and educate me on what is a healthy bare foot. Whether that advice came from a qualified farrier or qualified podiatrist I don’t mind but I do wonder why most farriers( or the ones I have used at least) aren’t more focused on overall foot health care. The podiatrists have definitely found a gap in the market .

 

[Melandmary]

For those who would like to learn more about horses feet or for those who don’t yet follow or know of him Mark Johnson is doing an online talk hosted by BHS Scotland on February 13th at 7pm.

Melandmanry if you have Facebook he is extremely interesting and knows his stuff. He also has a website www.mjfarrieranotherway.co.uk which is an interesting read.

Thankyou I will have a look at this, I want to arm myself with as much info as possible as to what their feet need.

 

[Boulty]

I'm lucky enough to have the same 'trimmer' as Boulty. He probably wouldn't even describe himself as a 'trimmer' as that is the last thing he does, and his ideal is to help the horse to trim itself as far as possible. He films their landing; advises on how to improve the health of the hoof whether through diet, exercise or environment; talks through how the hoof is responding to forces / conformation; and is always on hand if I have an issue (including a phone call last Friday evening after a vet visit for Chilli). He charges £55 if multiple horses on one yard, or £60 otherwise and visits my area once every three months.

I've not used an EP and tbh would be very loathe too unless they came with personal references from people I trust due to the issues mentioned by YCBM. The local farriers do an ok trim but don't check the hoof balance as thoroughly as the 'trimmer', don't seem to understand the holistic nature of hoof care, and have left my horses sore on occasion.

Haha you'll be getting me put on the naughty list for providing false descriptions! I am very very lucky that I've managed to find somebody VERY good on recommendation & that even when I moved the previous horse to some very random places that were NOT in an area he actually covered we worked something out and so I've never had to be in the position of looking for someone since. (although if I ever was I'd probably seek someone who had multiple sound, working barefoot horses on their books and who trimmed for at least one person I knew so I could see examples of their work)

 

[Caol Ila]

Don't mistake me Paddy, all was not perfect in the NHCP camp at the time, either. Nic Barker went to the US for one short trip with Pete Ramey and came back accredited to train NHCP trimmers on the UK.

It was very much the wild west back then, but anything was better than that butcher of a vet Dr Strasser!
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Do you like Nic Barker? A friend loaned me her book. It was interesting.

 

[ycbm]

Do you like Nic Barker? A friend loaned me her book. It was interesting.

Like her? What do you mean? She was a good friend at the time who I've mostly lost touch with now, but I'm not sure if you are asking about whether I like her as a drinking partner or a hoof professional ?
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Equine Podiatrists who are members of the Equine Podiatry Association (It isn’t a protected title, so you would need to check) do have to be insured, trained to a specific level, passed exams of a level and undertaken a minimum number of CPD hours to keep their membership and they are regulated. If you do have an issue you can take it up with them.

The podiatrist whose work I pictured upthread was and still is a fully qualified registered full member of the Equine Podiatry Association.

 

[GinaGeo]

And so if you were unhappy with the
work you could have reported it if you’d wanted to. And there would have been a review into it.

The EP will have full records, with good photographs, diet, workload and all medical history recorded which would enable the association to look into it.

As I said before, you wouldn’t judge the work of all farriers, on the work of one. Please don’t do that with Equine Podiatrists.

But if you do have issues with either, you should report it to their regulatory body, so it can be reviewed and extra training given if necessary.

 

[Fransurrey]

Round here the going rate for a trim by farrier is £35, podiatrist I've never paid for (I mostly trim my own when they're not shod) but I remember being quoted £45. As for which to use, I go by individual, as I've come across terrible and excellent examples of both!