Could my horse have EMS?

[CorriegarthJ]

I've got a cob gelding who I've had for 5 years. He is now fully retired due to collateral ligament damage (he is field sound) so exercise is not an option here.
Hes carefully managed anyway because hes naturally a good doer and because when he had MRI scans that diagnosed his soft tissue damage in 2016, he had very small signs of inflamed laminae, so the vets said its possible he has had lami in the past even if unnoticed but nothing to concern myself unnecessarily about.
Since hes been fully retired the past couple of years he has naturally put weight on, however after looking up EMS i think he may have it. He can be footy on uneven surfaces, hes really quite fat ( and the extra weight wont help his ligament damage) despite his management and he has a huge huge cresty neck, which has never really disappeared over the last year despite soaked hay etc and he has fat pads on shoulders. I clipped him at the beginning of the year (irish clip) in the hope it would help him lose some more weight before spring hit, but it didnt help at all.
I am going to ring the vets for advice anyway and see if they will do blood tests to check and know for sure (current situation dependent).
has anyone got any experience or advise of horses with EMS, is there anything more i can do to help weight loss in the mean time? or is it a case of bloods, medication, then management? he is a typical cob, always hungry, would eat anything in site. Also, not that this is going to make any difference but how much would the relevant blood tests etc cost? i just want to know for sure so i can manage him as best as possible.

Thanks.

 

[Leo Walker]

theres not a lot of treatment for EMS other than management. Thyroxine and metformin are the 2 drugs I know of. How is he kept now? I've never found clipping to make one iota of difference to any of minre!

 

[Leo Walker]

Has he had a cushings test?

 

[RHM]

Sounds like he could unfortunately be a candidate. I think last time mine had the tests done it was £48 for lab plus the cost of consultation.
With EMS you really have to get their metabolism going properly again, that means no rugs and as much exercise as you can. Even though he is retired could you walk him in hand or long rein? Even putting a track round the field can massively increase their daily steps! Putting them out at night or on shaded fields rather than middle/end of the day should help also. The laminitis site is a excellent resource with loads of links to clinical papers to back up what they recommend which I love being the nerd I am.

 

[CorriegarthJ]

here are some pics so you can get an idea of his weight. first one you can see his condition. this was with him living out completely naked, hay, rough grass over winter. second picture you can see how cresty his neck is.

 

[DD]

he looks like my cob did last year, over weight and cresty, when he came down with laminitis he was diagnosed as having EMS he does not have cushings. he had put a lot of weight on was footy and lethargic. I got 150kg off him by restricting soaked hay to one and a half percent of body weight and having medication off the vet and very very limited grazing on a sparse paddock. hes slimmer and sound now and full of life. he will always be sugar sensitive and need soaked hay and restricted grass. please call out you vet

 

[CorriegarthJ]

theres not a lot of treatment for EMS other than management. Thyroxine and metformin are the 2 drugs I know of. How is he kept now? I've never found clipping to make one iota of difference to any of minre!

i was meaning the medication, even if to help him lose the initial weight? is this a possibility?

atm he lives out 24/7, completely as he also has some arthritis. he is on a bare field and swaps to slightly more grassy field at night where my highland yearling is. he wears a muzzle when in there. he is given a tiny strip of poor, already grazed field every couple of days when in the bare paddock. his field is bare, but he does have his head down grazing, its not mud but if you imagine a very low/brownish level of grass covering, thats what he has. hes currently not on any hay, although i have purchased a trickle net and have also temporarily tried a track round the field but atm this is not suitable as i dont want to put the highland on this. hopefully the highland ois going to move into another field with another horse so this could be possible at the weekend?

 

[RHM]

Looking at that bottom photo I would be very surprised if he wasn’t “metabolic” with that crest. It’s very similar to type two diabetes in humans, the “danger weight” is in very particular parts of the body. Definitely ring vet for some advice, the grass is growing like mad here at the moment. I wouldn’t be turning out during the day until the vets seen him.

 

[CorriegarthJ]

Looking at that bottom photo I would be very surprised if he wasn’t “metabolic” with that crest. It’s very similar to type two diabetes in humans, the “danger weight” is in very particular parts of the body. Definitely ring vet for some advice, the grass is growing like mad here at the moment. I wouldn’t be turning out during the day until the vets seen him.

the trouble is, due to his ligament damage and arthritis, it would be unfair to stable him for periods of time as he gets very stiff very quickly, hence why he needs to live out, this unfortunately needs to be non negotiable so management has to involve him being out. we are very lucky that we have full control of our fields as we're not a typical livery yard so i can change fencing to whatever setup i want/ without any issue.

 

[Leo Walker]

He looks metabolic too me as well as overweight. Something in his lifestyle needs to change. Even if you use drugs to lose weight initially they are not given long term so you will be back at square one again. As someone said further up 1.5% of his weight in forage. I always give a small feed as well. When you restrict them so severely they need something. Mine get a no iron mineral supplement, a large dose of salt and linseed in a very low calorie feed.

I think you have gone wrong over winter. In the photo with him eating hay there looks to be loads of grass, I wouldn't have fed anything extra on that,

We've just had rain today after all that warm weather and the grass is going to go mad.

Can you put up a track? If not keep him in the small bare area. Feed chopped straw if the number of poos drops. At this point hes definitely in the danger zone and I would be doing everything in my power to keep him off anything that resembled green grass.

 

[RHM]

the trouble is, due to his ligament damage and arthritis, it would be unfair to stable him for periods of time as he gets very stiff very quickly, hence why he needs to live out, this unfortunately needs to be non negotiable so management has to involve him being out. we are very lucky that we have full control of our fields as we're not a typical livery yard so i can change fencing to whatever setup i want/ without any issue.

In that case I would fence off a tiny paddock in the hope that it would get completely trashed and feed soaked hay (would need to work him if not got space to move much) or set up a track for him. I would be very worried leaving him at grass at the moment. Particularly if he can’t be stabled as that would be a absolute nightmare if he came down with lami. Metformin could be a short term solution as it can prevent insulin spikes through sugar consumption, so could help remove some of the lami risk while you try and get the weight down.

 

[Gloi]

Looking at the bottom pic compared to what our good doers live on over winter there is a veritable banquet there. We have a field similar to that and they strip graze it through winter , hay only appearing if there is a lot of snow. They keep weight on fine but are slim enough not to have to panic in spring.

 

[CorriegarthJ]

He looks metabolic too me as well as overweight. Something in his lifestyle needs to change. Even if you use drugs to lose weight initially they are not given long term so you will be back at square one again. As someone said further up 1.5% of his weight in forage. I always give a small feed as well. When you restrict them so severely they need something. Mine get a no iron mineral supplement, a large dose of salt and linseed in a very low calorie feed.

I think you have gone wrong over winter. In the photo with him eating hay there looks to be loads of grass, I wouldn't have fed anything extra on that,

We've just had rain today after all that warm weather and the grass is going to go mad.

Can you put up a track? If not keep him in the small bare area. Feed chopped straw if the number of poos drops. At this point hes definitely in the danger zone and I would be doing everything in my power to keep him off anything that resembled green grass.

He looks metabolic too me as well as overweight. Something in his lifestyle needs to change. Even if you use drugs to lose weight initially they are not given long term so you will be back at square one again. As someone said further up 1.5% of his weight in forage. I always give a small feed as well. When you restrict them so severely they need something. Mine get a no iron mineral supplement, a large dose of salt and linseed in a very low calorie feed.

I think you have gone wrong over winter. In the photo with him eating hay there looks to be loads of grass, I wouldn't have fed anything extra on that,

We've just had rain today after all that warm weather and the grass is going to go mad.

Can you put up a track? If not keep him in the small bare area. Feed chopped straw if the number of poos drops. At this point hes definitely in the danger zone and I would be doing everything in my power to keep him off anything that resembled green grass.

winter was a bit of an issue as I took ownership of a highland foal (in second picture) so i needed to have a large enough space to run about and youngster needed the forage. as i say, im open to any management needed so long as this will be managed outside and not in a stable and the highland is hopefully going to be put into a field with another horse at the weekend. i have booked the vet and they are coming out tomorrow. im worried about feeding straw, would this not cause impaction colic? until a few weeks ago he was on handful of honeychop lite with scoop pinkmash (already soaked) , salt and tumeric. should i reintroduce this while on the bare paddock with weighed soaked hay? which supplement do you recommend?

 

[CorriegarthJ]

Looking at the bottom pic compared to what our good doers live on over winter there is a veritable banquet there. We have a field similar to that and they strip graze it through winter , hay only appearing if there is a lot of snow. They keep weight on fine but are slim enough not to have to panic in spring.

yes i definable underestimated the grass over winter and went wrong, i hold my hands up, but i am open to anything that will now get the weight off and help. i am normally much better educated with his management. the bare field is large enoguh for him to hoon around if he wanted but is bare, i can make this smaller though and im sure i can reintroduce a track. another issue is that two sides of his field has a boundary of hedges, which he also eats. should i keep him away from these aswell? i take it he needs to stay away from all green?

 

[Gloi]

If you put him on the bare field and count the droppings you will soon find out how bare it really is and how much you need to cut it down. They manage to eat a lot at this time of year on the barest of ground so you will need to take care.

 

[RHM]

yes i definable underestimated the grass over winter and went wrong, i hold my hands up, but i am open to anything that will now get the weight off and help. i am normally much better educated with his management. the bare field is large enoguh for him to hoon around if he wanted but is bare, i can make this smaller though and im sure i can reintroduce a track. another issue is that two sides of his field has a boundary of hedges, which he also eats. should i keep him away from these aswell? i take it he needs to stay away from all green?

Don’t beat yourself up, the only reason why we can answer your original question with any degree of certainty is because we have been in your shoes!
Re hedge I think it depends on what type it is, some plants are fine and others aren’t. I found a great website once with the details, I will have a look for you!
Re supplements I use forage plus, it’s the best I have found and the company are great to deal with.
Re straw again it depends on the type, I have fed top spec straw with success, there are quite a few on the market for this purpose.
Good luck with the vet tomorrow!

 

[buffy2]

Could you do a sort of a track round the edge of the field, then you could put your yearling in the middle bit for extra grass x

 

[CorriegarthJ]

I have made a track this evening. It’s not massive but it will do until I can make it bigger at the weekend.
the 1.5% rule, I’m assuming that percentage is dry weight? And when the field is completely eaten down, as in reduced poo’s, would chopped oat straw need to come into the 1.5%?

 

[Nudibranch]

I have a borderline EMS Fell. My vet said medication is pretty ineffective.
So it's all about management. Plenty of suggestions already but what works for us is a track - the other one shares it but spends time off the track as well as she doesn't need so much restriction. Mine come in during the day, it varies slightly but around from 10-4. While in they get a trug of TopChop Zero, so they have forage but with no calories. Exercise is a big factor. The more the better. Mine wears boots in front when driving, rather than being shod. That way I can monitor any slight footiness.

With the track, start it off as narrow but long as is sensible. You can always widen it if he needs more to eat. Or just put out some chaff. Remember the grass will still be growing as it gets eaten down. But movement and exercise are key. Think of it as type 2 diabetes in people - many people can reverse theirs if they lose weight, cut the sugars and exercise more.

Mine have access to the hedges. Most hedgerow matter is quite tough and fibrous, and variety in vegetation is good. Grass is the problem really as that's where the sugars are.

 

[CorriegarthJ]

I have a borderline EMS Fell. My vet said medication is pretty ineffective.
So it's all about management. Plenty of suggestions already but what works for us is a track - the other one shares it but spends time off the track as well as she doesn't need so much restriction. Mine come in during the day, it varies slightly but around from 10-4. While in they get a trug of TopChop Zero, so they have forage but with no calories. Exercise is a big factor. The more the better. Mine wears boots in front when driving, rather than being shod. That way I can monitor any slight footiness closely.

If you can make a track, start it off as narrow as is sensible. You can always widen it if he needs more to eat. But movement and exercise are key. Think of it as type 2 diabetes in people - many people can reverse theirs if they lose weight, cut the sugars and exercise more.

thanks for your reply. Unfortunately he cannot he ridden however I am considering doing some lone lining to get some extra steps in and hopefully the track will keep him moving too. I have been and bought some bags of top chop zero today. I’m worried he will just scoff the lot? He’s so greedy....is there a maximum amount of top chop zero he should have when the time comes?

 

[Nudibranch]

The bag has a useful guide on the back about introducing it...mine just pick at it now, they thought it fairly tasty for about 10 minutes but the novelty soon wore off. Its doesn't weigh a lot so you can feed a fair bit once they are used to it.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Magnesium oxide can help keep fat pads and weight down especially in spring, it's relatively cheap I get mine from intra labs along with other small changes in management it can all make a difference.

 

[Leo Walker]

winter was a bit of an issue as I took ownership of a highland foal (in second picture) so i needed to have a large enough space to run about and youngster needed the forage. as i say, im open to any management needed so long as this will be managed outside and not in a stable and the highland is hopefully going to be put into a field with another horse at the weekend. i have booked the vet and they are coming out tomorrow. im worried about feeding straw, would this not cause impaction colic? until a few weeks ago he was on handful of honeychop lite with scoop pinkmash (already soaked) , salt and tumeric. should i reintroduce this while on the bare paddock with weighed soaked hay? which supplement do you recommend?

I feed very similar and use equimins advance complete and a big dose of salt. Funnily enough my fat cob also lives with highland youngster. Mines coming 2 not a foal though. If you look up my posts there's one discussing how I keep them and why and other options etc. Might help for now and the future.

 

[Leo Walker]

With the track you may have to put the highland on first to clear it. Its all well and good having a track, but if its full of grass its no good. I'd have the full circular track up but section him a bit off and slowly move him round, muzzled if needs be. Hedges are fine. Mine pick at those and occasionally eat bits of a tree if it appeals. Yes the chopped straw needs to be in the 1.5% but its very light so they can eat a lot.

I think i'd be tempted to keep him on the bare patch all day then put him on the track, muzzled and with the youngster over night and hopefully it will encourage him to move about. I'd possibly consider moving it as well if that's an option. When the grass is eaten down then he can be left on it 24/7

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I've fed my airfern on Magnesium Oxide. Mostly when he was out on grass. He can only handle grass if he is in work.

For a horse such as this, no grass, soaked hay in a slow-feeder/trickle net, and a good vit/min. Some even use two haynets, one on top of the other, to really slow down the ambitious feeder. I have my good doer on a specific mineral we have here for laminitis horses that focuses on hoof health. He does not have EMS or laminitis, but is a good doer so I treat him as such...before it gets to that point.

They do also make this ball that you can stuff hay in that the horse can roll around and eat out of, might be something for him to do. Then as much movement as possible, of course.

 

[Fransurrey]

When I couldn't ride my EMS pony, I put soaked hay out in the paddock and muzzled him and his friend (who wasn't ridden). That way they found it easier to eat the soaked hay rather than grass (bucket style muzzle). He definitely looks an EMS candidate with that neck.

 

[CorriegarthJ]

I feed very similar and use equimins advance complete and a big dose of salt. Funnily enough my fat cob also lives with highland youngster. Mines coming 2 not a foal though. If you look up my posts there's one discussing how I keep them and why and other options etc. Might help for now and the future.

brilliant very helpful thanks.

 

[CorriegarthJ]

With the track you may have to put the highland on first to clear it. Its all well and good having a track, but if its full of grass its no good. I'd have the full circular track up but section him a bit off and slowly move him round, muzzled if needs be. Hedges are fine. Mine pick at those and occasionally eat bits of a tree if it appeals. Yes the chopped straw needs to be in the 1.5% but its very light so they can eat a lot.

I think i'd be tempted to keep him on the bare patch all day then put him on the track, muzzled and with the youngster over night and hopefully it will encourage him to move about. I'd possibly consider moving it as well if that's an option. When the grass is eaten down then he can be left on it 24/7

Ive actually set the track up around half of the bare field he’s been on however my plan is to Enlarge it around the whole space of bare field for more of a permanent space at the weekend, the highland can go in first to ensure whatever grass has grown since rain yesterday is eaten.

 

[CorriegarthJ]

I've fed my airfern on Magnesium Oxide. Mostly when he was out on grass. He can only handle grass if he is in work.

Magnesium oxide can help keep fat pads and weight down especially in spring, it's relatively cheap I get mine from intra labs along with other small changes in management it can all make a difference.

If I was to get some equimins advance complete, would this include the magnesium he needs?

 

[GinaGeo]

My Connemara was diagnosed with EMS last year. Whilst he's in full work I can manage him relatively well - for it to really work he needs to really puff once a week - lots of long canters out hacking that sort of thing. As soon as he's off work his Insulin Levels spike. Unfortunately he sustained a Check Ligament Injury last year and couldn't be worked, he came off grass and hasn't been back out since (the smallest amount seems to be a trigger these days). After a lot of struggling to keep the weight off, as his metabolism slowed with lack of work, the weight just piled on, we ended up having him blood tested and that's when he came back positive. We managed him initially, but I really struggled to bring him back into work, as despite our best efforts he was pottery. I couldn't feed him any less, he wasn't turned out on grass and in the end I asked the vet about Metformin.

For him it really worked, and within a few days he was walking out fine and the weight finally started to creep off again, and it meant I could bring him back into work properly. I am lucky to have an all-weather non grassy track - which is ideal for him. Grass, especially at this time of year is a no go.

In your situation I would be tempted to use the bare field, but put a muzzle on (the grass will be too short to eat through the hole) and then feed soaked hay, fed in lots of little piles to get him moving. As we get later in the year and the grass goes stalky and less sugary you might find he will cope a little better - the grass at this time of year really is at its most dangerous - especially the overgrazed stressed stuff in a starvation paddock.

But certainly the first priority is to strip a significant amount of weight off him, limit his intake and exercise him as much as you are able. Can you lead him off another horse if you can't ride him?