Council land- profiteering

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qwerty1

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I have my mare on council land.
I pay approx £1,200 every year via paper invoices/bills issued to me by a person who literally just turned up one day about 7 years ago out of the blue, and started making demands when the person who pays the couple-hundred-per-year-lease fell ill.

I dont want to do anything illegal so I sometimes refuse to pay.
I end up with arrears invoices and bills totalling a few months that I feel pressurised, infact even quite threatened, into paying. (She also keeps her horses here, but doesn't pay a penny to anyone.)

This person claiming my money has nothing to do with the council, is NOT the leaseholder, she doesnt contribute towards it, nor do the council know anything of this situation. She keeps the cash for herself.
I dont know what to do as I feel my horse will also loose her home, this person will drive me out. I have been here almost all of my life, much longer than this woman who thinks she owns the land.

I look forward to hearing if anyone else has had a similar experience, particularly interested in knowing about the (il)legalities of subletting and any rights I may or may not have.
 
Ring the Council? ...........

ETA - Do you yourself have permission to be on the land from the Council, any contract etc? Is it fenced, or do you tether?
 
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Tricky...

As the other person keeps their horses there you cant really be too forceful without risking your place there

If it was me I would arrange emergency grazing just in case then let the council know the whole situation - they may evict her and you can step in, they may do nothing to the woman but enforce T&CS in which case you'd probably have to leave

As it stands though unless its an amazing place you could possibly get the same if not more for your money
 
Leave if you're not happy paying, pay up if you are.
£100 a month is very little even for DIY livery

The leaseholder must be paying the council the £couple of hundred otherwise the council would be involved.
If the leaseholder has sublet (all be it informally by just letting her take over) that's a matter for the leaseholder and this lady to discuss/ agree.
If the leaseholder isn't allowed to sub let, it's a matter for the council and leaseholder
I'm not sure how it's anything that should concern you.

I was on a yard where the YM rented the property - I had no idea of their arrangements with the owner, don't know what they paid them and considered it none of my business. I paid the YM a fair rate for the use of the space - she may well have kept all of it but I couldn't find better/ similar facilities for a similar price.
 
I don't really understand - is anyone renting this land form the council? AFAIA council farm tennants can sublet / charge for liveries, etc. If she is not the tenant, who is? And if you're not paying rent to her, who should you pay rent to? Someone has to pay otherwise it will be a free for all on all council land. I would take all the invoices to the council if I were you.
 
Sorry OP I just don't understand this post. So someone sub-letting council land? I'm sure sub letting may not be in their contract so they are breaking the law. I think you will have to contact council to find where you stand but be prepared to find a new home for your horse
 
Thank you for all of your advice.
Sorry if I have confused people- its a complicated situation. The lease is paid by the leaseholder, yearly.
The person who invoices me is not the leaseholder- and my money does not go towards the lease, it goes into her pocket.
This person who takes the money has a number of horses herself on the land- without leaseholders knowledge. So she doesn't pay anything herself. I am not under any illusion, I know that the land isn't mine and I have no right to it, therefore I do not behave as if it is, I am simply not accepting of why someone who doesn't own land, would harass people into paying money for something they themselves do not own. We are equal in the fact neither of us own the land, or the lease, therefore we should just pay the leaseholder, or not at all
 
Honestly this is an issue between the lady in question and the leaseholder, if the leaseholder isn't bothered, has bigger things to worry about or hasn't visited the land in so long they aren't aware who's using it, then there isn't much you can do other than leave.

You could try and get the leaseholder to throw this lady out, but if the leaseholder is ill, giving her a big problem to deal with might not be the kindest thing to do.
The council won't care as their agreement is with the leaseholder and the rent is paid to them no problem.
 
So, this person appeared 7 years ago unbeknown to the lease holder and put horses in the land and then charged you rent ?
Do you have a contact number for the lease holder ? I'm guessing, you'd be best to seek legal advice if the situation is too difficult to sort out on your own because of the length of time she/he has been on the land.
Perhaps you could approach the council (with the leaseholder's agreement) to take over the lease yourself. You could then charge this person, £100p/m for each horse she has.
 
Your problem is if the leaseholder stops paying and the lease is terminated.
Start at the begining and do a land registry seach on who owns the land.
Having done that you can contact them and obtain the contact details of the leaseholder.
Then contact the leaseholder direct and find out exactly what the situation is as regards the person collecting the rent and if you should be paying them or the leaseholder.
Ensure that you get written confirmation that you are allowed to keep your horse on the land and how much it is and that you always pay them by cheque so that there is proof of payment.
 
How long have you been on the land. Which council is it?

Really bad management on the council's behalf if both yourself/the person making financial demands of you have occupied so long without any agreement. Do you know if the land is registered with HMLR? Jesus I would be concerned someone is about to make an adverse possession claim if you've been there so long without any proper interest.
 
I think I understood that the council own the land and have an ongoing and valid lease arrangement with the leaseholder. The leaseholder for reasons probably best known to them has allowed another person to use the land (or failed to notice that they are using the land) and this third person has taken it upon themselves to charge the OP livery.

The council owner are happily recieving rent from the leaseholder, presumably under a proper tenancy agreement.
 
Polos Mum said:
I think I understood that the council own the land and have an ongoing and valid lease arrangement with the leaseholder. The leaseholder for reasons probably best known to them has allowed another person to use the land (or failed to notice that they are using the land) and this third person has taken it upon themselves to charge the OP livery.

The council owner are happily recieving rent from the leaseholder, presumably under a proper tenancy agreement.
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Which will presumably stipulate that the leaseholder should not sublet without the landlord's consent and will also require the leaseholder to make all reasonable steps to prevent trespass. Either way it is ultimately the landlord or his agent's responsibility to ensure the land is let in line with the agreement, and if this is historic someone may have grounds for adverse possession.
 
RunToEarth said:
Which will presumably stipulate that the leaseholder should not sublet without the landlord's consent and will also require the leaseholder to make all reasonable steps to prevent trespass. Either way it is ultimately the landlord or his agent's responsibility to ensure the land is let in line with the agreement, and if this is historic someone may have grounds for adverse possession.
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You're right if there is no sub lease clause (of leasehold has been paying rent for land someone else has been using for 7 years un noticed by them!) then the OP should shop the leaseholder to the council - but be prepared for the council to take back control of the land and ask all parties to leave so it can be re let with vacant posession.

Hence my origional suggestion of just put up and pay up or find somewhere else where the OP is happy with the ownership/ lease/ livery arrangements
 
Thank you for all of your replies, interesting to read.

(Again, sorry for any confusion- complicated situation as I said before.)

Perhaps this may be slightly irrelevant to my original post, seeing as I have been here for over 10 years , and longer than the person charging me money...

would I have a claim for adverse possession, or not ? Would the person (not leaseholder) receiving money from me have a better claim even though she hasn't been here for as long?

I am only asking this as , after reading replies, I am concerned we could be told to move if leaseholder stops paying.
 
This is the land registry official guidance on adverse possession of registered land (I'm assuming the council will have it properly registered - but worth a check).

The short answer is no you could make a claim but it would only go through if the council didn't oppose your claim (which I'm pretty sure they would!)

http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/professional/guides/practice-guide-4
 
Why is it assumed that the Council's tenant has no right to sublet?

We don't have enough details to come to any meaningful conclusion.

Maybe the land is let to a big international company for, say, building a factory. This company doesn't want to build now but may in the future. So it grants a licence to Mrs X to graze her horses on the land. That suits them because the land is kept in good order and they have someone on site keeping an eye on it. You might say Mrs X is getting free grazing in lieu of payment for looking after the land, so she is paying a rent in "money's worth". Mrs X finds she has too much grazing for her horses, so sublets to Mrs Z. So what?

Mrs X is on to a good thing because she has an income (rent from Mrs Z) for something she gets for nothing. Nobody has broken any laws. But Mrs X may only have a licence which can be terminated at any time with reasonable notice. She cannot sublet more than the rights she possesses so if Mrs X is given notice, Mrs Z will have to go too. Mrs Z is paying a lower rent in consideration of this insecurity.

If the current arrangement suits everyone, as it seems to do, what's the problem? Mrs Z (the OP) has no more or less rights than she had 7 years ago. She should just make sure she has a back up plan in place in case it all goes sour. She should keep her fingers crossed and hope she can continue as before. She should however be aware that the current state of bliss could cease at any time.

Of course, the above is all speculation, but it could be as things are....
 
qwerty1 said:
Thank you for all of your replies, interesting to read.

(Again, sorry for any confusion- complicated situation as I said before.)

Perhaps this may be slightly irrelevant to my original post, seeing as I have been here for over 10 years , and longer than the person charging me money...

would I have a claim for adverse possession, or not ? Would the person (not leaseholder) receiving money from me have a better claim even though she hasn't been here for as long?

I am only asking this as , after reading replies, I am concerned we could be told to move if leaseholder stops paying.
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How long have you been there from, and with what grounds - does the landlord know that you personally are in occupation of the land?

It depends on circumstances.

The Land Registration Act 2002 came into effect on 13 October 2003 and therefore anyone in occupation of unregistered land, or registered land for 12 years preceeding that date will have to adhere to practice guide 05, which is different to practice guide 04 which deals with registered interests, whereby you can apply for adverse possession if you can demonstrate that you have been in occupation for over 10years, with the intention to possess land without the owner's consent (IE subletting from the lessee without consent.)

Overriding interests should have been registered by 13 October 2013 which was the "deadline" although I think you can still lodge new registrations with HMLR where interests exist.
 
Dry Rot said:
Why is it assumed that the Council's tenant has no right to sublet?

We don't have enough details to come to any meaningful conclusion.

Maybe the land is let to a big international company for, say, building a factory. This company doesn't want to build now but may in the future. So it grants a licence to Mrs X to graze her horses on the land. That suits them because the land is kept in good order and they have someone on site keeping an eye on it. You might say Mrs X is getting free grazing in lieu of payment for looking after the land, so she is paying a rent in "money's worth". Mrs X finds she has too much grazing for her horses, so sublets to Mrs Z. So what?

Mrs X is on to a good thing because she has an income (rent from Mrs Z) for something she gets for nothing. Nobody has broken any laws. But Mrs X may only have a licence which can be terminated at any time with reasonable notice. She cannot sublet more than the rights she possesses so if Mrs X is given notice, Mrs Z will have to go too. Mrs Z is paying a lower rent in consideration of this insecurity.

If the current arrangement suits everyone, as it seems to do, what's the problem? Mrs Z (the OP) has no more or less rights than she had 7 years ago. She should just make sure she has a back up plan in place in case it all goes sour. She should keep her fingers crossed and hope she can continue as before. She should however be aware that the current state of bliss could cease at any time.

Of course, the above is all speculation, but it could be as things are....
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Most precedent grazing agreements prohibit subletting without consent from the Landlord because it has the potential to give rise to adverse possession...
 
Again, to clarify- I have been on the land ALOT longer than the woman who charges me rent.
Now, as for money being paid, I feel pressurised into it and I always assumed it was within my interests to pay, to keep a home for my horse. You could say I pay it for an easy life. Yes, she is also a bully.
Before this, the leaseholder wasn't at all bothered about rent, occasionally I would give her a bale of hay 'donation'. She would always stipulate it had to be a 'donation', for obvious reasons.

I have stopped paying many times, only to be hit with yet more home made invoices and comments about being in arrears. She also starts hitting me with all sorts of restrictions and comments about what I can and cant do.
For example, if horse out in a particular section, she will bring it out and physically MOVE it, until the rent is paid.

Thank you again for all of your advice -it has given me a lot more confidence to talk to her about it, and talk to the leaseholder, too.

I am going to request to see a copy of the lease document(s) (if I can!), and also look into adverse possession.
 
I don't really get why you'd give this woman any money at all.

This should be your plan of action.

- ring council and find out the name of the tenant. Register with them (council) your interest in the land, should it ever come up for re-letting in the future.

- go to official tenant (via council if they won't give out/confirm name) and inform them of the situation. Ask where they/you stand.

- tell lady who is demanding rent that you will be happy to pay - WHEN you see something official from the council stating that she has powers to evict you. If she fails to come up with this but keeps hassling you then get a letter sent to her from a solicitor officially telling her to jog on.

Tbh you've made a rod for your own back by paying her anything in the past. I can't believe you have. But you need to grow a pair here I'm afraid!

ETA - you have no claim for adverse possession here. The land belongs to the council.
 
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Patterdale said:
I don't really get why you'd give this woman any money at all.

This should be your plan of action.

- ring council and find out the name of the tenant. Register with them (council) your interest in the land, should it ever come up for re-letting in the future.

- go to official tenant (via council if they won't give out/confirm name) and inform them of the situation. Ask where they/you stand.

- tell lady who is demanding rent that you will be happy to pay - WHEN you see something official from the council stating that she has powers to evict you. If she fails to come up with this but keeps hassling you then get a letter sent to her from a solicitor officially telling her to jog on.

Tbh you've made a rod for your own back by paying her anything in the past. I can't believe you have. But you need to grow a pair here I'm afraid!

ETA - you have no claim for adverse possession here. The land belongs to the council.
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This ^^^
 
" tell lady who is demanding rent that you will be happy to pay - WHEN you see something official from the council stating that she has powers to evict you. If she fails to come up with this but keeps hassling you then get a letter sent to her from a solicitor officially telling her to jog on. "

I have already planned to do this. I think she will struggle to put forward a good argument for me continuing to respond to her invoices, especially when I bring the council into it.

-I have also contacted land registy.

God knows how she will react. She's greedy, behaves as if she owns the place, sometimes I think she forgets that she is no more the landowner than I am. She behaves very differently to me, as I've said in past posts, she will physically move horse out of paddock(s) if I don't pay 'rent', padlock gates etc. I paid it for an easy life, for both me and the horse. And I've always resented how she can control everything, with this behaviour.
 
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OP just be a touch careful, a slightly stroppy/ demanding woman who you're going to get into trouble has full access to your horses, if she moves them around without your consent anyway just be careful they don't get moved somewhere you can't find them if she gets really cross with you, people have done more in less agressive circumstances sadly!
 
Patterdale said:
I don't really get why you'd give this woman any money at all.

This should be your plan of action.

- ring council and find out the name of the tenant. Register with them (council) your interest in the land, should it ever come up for re-letting in the future.

- go to official tenant (via council if they won't give out/confirm name) and inform them of the situation. Ask where they/you stand.

- tell lady who is demanding rent that you will be happy to pay - WHEN you see something official from the council stating that she has powers to evict you. If she fails to come up with this but keeps hassling you then get a letter sent to her from a solicitor officially telling her to jog on.

Tbh you've made a rod for your own back by paying her anything in the past. I can't believe you have. But you need to grow a pair here I'm afraid!

ETA - you have no claim for adverse possession here. The land belongs to the council.
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Yes the land belongs to the council but as I have previously stated she will have a claim for adverse possession depending on whether the council has any idea she is in occupation of the land - that is why it is so important for landlords/their agents to actively manage land.
 
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