Counter rotated pedal bones - back pain?

[LadyBirdie]

Hi, my mare was displaying negative behaviour when ridden (pinning ears and bucking/kicking out as soon as asked to walk forward). We had the vet out and she found mild bilateral hind end lameness which was later diagnosed as counter rotated pedal bones through nerve blocks and x-rays. They also x-rayed her back as we suspected kissing spine but all clear. The vet thinks it’s putting strain on the tendons down the backs of her legs and causing back pain. My farrier put heel wedges on her hinds about a month ago. We were also pretty confident her saddle wasn’t fitting properly so I tried getting on bareback this morning to see if she seemed any happier but again as soon as I got on and she took a step forward she bucked and then threatened to rear.

My question is - has anyone experienced anything similar? How was it resolved? How long did it take? Feeling very disheartened as I’d hoped it would be a fairly simple fix and she’d be feeling better by now

 

[ycbm]

Has the vet scanned for PSD and has she been scoped for ulcers?

Both are likely follow ups to negative foot angles causing back pain.
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[LadyBirdie]

She was scoped clear for ulcers in August. We think she had them earlier in the year but she’s not currently displaying any other symptoms so vet wants to deal with one thing at a time but we have discussed having her scoped again.

Not been scanned for PSD, I’m not too familiar with the condition but she blocked sound at the fetlock and the lameness is very mild - only visible in trot on a hard circle. Vet hasn’t reassessed since wedges put on but I can’t see any lameness. It’s something I’ll ask my vet about. She did mention about doing an MRI of the leg to check for anything else going on which im hoping to have done soon.

 

[ycbm]

Are you insured? I wouldn't pay for MRI without a cheap ultrasound scan of the suspensories first, it's a really common condition these days and would be really common with a negative foot angle.

I get what your vet is saying about one thing at a time if it was skeletal, but if pain has given her ulcers then i can't see the sense of trying to get to the bottom of her bucking without sorting them out.

From what you are describing, the wedges might have sorted the pain and what you are now dealing with is ulcers.
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[nutjob]

A bilateral hind suspensory issue can result in a barely detectable lameness. Mine was sound until the suspensory was blocked but it could be seen clearly on ultrasound. A behavior problem was what caused me to think something was wrong. I also wouldn't go for MRI without first doing an ultrasound. MRI costs about 10 x as much and in my case I have to travel a lot further and leave horse there all day.

 

[Zoeypxo]

My horse has NPA in her front feet which was causing back pain and alot of other issues.
Wedges and pad’s unfortunately only worked temporarily so i have recently gone barefoot and finally seeing changes in foot structure and comfort, although its a much slower process

definitely worth scanning for psd and scoping for ulcers if behaviour does not improve
Mine reared alot when she had ulcers too

 

[AandK]

Yes had the same with my 25yo back in 2005. Went lame behind, had bone scan etc as sacroiliac was suspected but was fine. Blocked hind feet and he was a different horse. Had deep physio and wedge pads. Was fine with pads and regular physio until he had a chronic suspensory injury 3yrs later. Likely caused by a combination of too much work on a surface and the wedges. He had 5 months off to rehab and I took his hind shoes off. He never needed the wedges again. If I had one with the same issue, I’d go straight to barefoot rehab.

 

[sbloom]

Have a look at The Equine Documentalist (and consider doing the webinar he did last week on nerve impingement, posture and feet) and Progressive Equine Services on Facebook. I would suspect negative hoof pastern axis is a more significant problem, it's often ignored by vets, as is posture. Poor posture is part of compensatory movement patterns, currently thought by many (and there is a lot of good evidence) to be the cause of the majority of lamenesses.

I am a big fan of barefoot, for rehab and long term, but sometimes it's a challenge to fix the angles quickly enough to help the body and stop further issues.

 

[ycbm]

I get so cross if vets won't take any notice of a camped under stance until the horse goes lame. To me, camped under at the back is a time bomb waiting to go off.
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[misst]

I am pretty sure undiagnosed PSD lead to SIJ problems later in one of ours. My daughter is still sure that actually whole problem was triggered by poor front foot conformation and counter rotation in his fronts. He was not lame in front but moved better when nerve blocked. All his behavoural issues were due to discomfort - he just was not a horse that sucked it up and got on with it. It was only when we got a really really good vet to listen and block all feet and scan for PSD as well as xraying feet that we sorted him properly. Sadly I think long term damage triggered his SI joint problems and he was retired. Maybe speak to a vet who will listen.

 

[sbloom]

I am pretty sure undiagnosed PSD lead to SIJ problems later in one of ours. My daughter is still sure that actually whole problem was triggered by poor front foot conformation and counter rotation in his fronts. He was not lame in front but moved better when nerve blocked. All his behavoural issues were due to discomfort - he just was not a horse that sucked it up and got on with it. It was only when we got a really really good vet to listen and block all feet and scan for PSD as well as xraying feet that we sorted him properly. Sadly I think long term damage triggered his SI joint problems and he was retired. Maybe speak to a vet who will listen.

Hooves don't have much "conformation" as such, they're very elastic and change due to outside influences ie what we do with the horse. Too many horses are let down by our approach, and lack of understanding, of hoof function, correct HPAs, posture and compensatory movement problems. Any hoof balance issue will, at some point, almost inevitably lead to problems elsewhere.

 

[Goldenstar]

I get so cross if vets won't take any notice of a camped under stance until the horse goes lame. To me, camped under at the back is a time bomb waiting to go off.
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I agree with this it’s a huge red flag that something disastrous is about to smack you in the face .

 

[paddy555]

I agree with this it’s a huge red flag that something disastrous is about to smack you in the face .

I get so cross if vets won't take any notice of a camped under stance until the horse goes lame. To me, camped under at the back is a time bomb waiting to go off.
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by chance this came up on my e mails today. No one had apparently put two and two together? Haven't we thought this for a long while?


https://thehorse.com/1119366/correc...m_medium=Lameness+enews&utm_source=Newsletter

 

[sbloom]

by chance this came up on my e mails today. No one had apparently put two and two together? Haven't we thought this for a long while?


https://thehorse.com/1119366/correc...m_medium=Lameness+enews&utm_source=Newsletter

I think like many things it's been forgotten, brought back up by people like Yogi and Progressive Equine Services. The vet profession certainly seems to have overlooked it for a long time. I think the right postural groundwork should be the main focus as that improves the feet too, but often progress is limited by the hind feet. I still wonder if we might see long term issues from fixing angles so fast, but few signs of that yet.

The majority of horses that I see are at least slightly camped under behind, many of them significantly so, and almost all would have broken back HPA.

 

[tristar]

Have a look at The Equine Documentalist (and consider doing the webinar he did last week on nerve impingement, posture and feet) and Progressive Equine Services on Facebook. I would suspect negative hoof pastern axis is a more significant problem, it's often ignored by vets, as is posture. Poor posture is part of compensatory movement patterns, currently thought by many (and there is a lot of good evidence) to be the cause of the majority of lamenesses.

I am a big fan of barefoot, for rehab and long term, but sometimes it's a challenge to fix the angles quickly enough to help the body and stop further issues.

the first thing i look at is H P A

the way a horse stands at rest, stance, for me is good indicator of how it feels in its body, how its stands over its feet in the body posture it takes, ie full and relaxed or tense and held

 

[HelenBack]

I think like many things it's been forgotten, brought back up by people like Yogi and Progressive Equine Services. The vet profession certainly seems to have overlooked it for a long time. I think the right postural groundwork should be the main focus as that improves the feet too, but often progress is limited by the hind feet. I still wonder if we might see long term issues from fixing angles so fast, but few signs of that yet.

The majority of horses that I see are at least slightly camped under behind, many of them significantly so, and almost all would have broken back HPA.

We think my new horse has NPA, as in we haven't done x-rays but vet, farrier and I all think it's the case and x-rays probably wouldn't tell us much we can't see anyway.

I was choosing between barefoot and the 3D pads and found it difficult because barefoot I felt would be the better long term option but I expect it to take longer whereas the pads could improve the angles instantly. I did go for barefoot in the end on the basis that if it doesn't work out I'll try the pads after but was wondering whether that was a bit mean of me. It's a good point though about the long term impact of fixing the angles so quickly and the farrier said that some horses don't like the sudden change. It's too soon for me to say if the barefoot route is going to be effective or not but I'll stick with it for now and hope that slowly is a good way to go!

 

[sbloom]

At the moment the received wisdom is not to change the angles quickly, these two experts say DO change them fast, that it works. We'll see how it plays out, overall I really like what they're doing. I was a massive barefoot convert but fixing negative HPA can be slow, and sometimes very difficult, barefoot, so I'd still say barefoot wherever possible, but I'm more pragmatic having seen this type of work.

 

[HelenBack]

Yes I'm in the same camp as you. I prefer barefoot where possible and my other horse has been barefoot over three years now and won't go back to shoes. I'm being more pragmatic with the new one though and just want to do what's right for him, be that barefoot or shod. I'm happy to give the barefoot option a go and feel that a break from shoes at this time of year can't harm anyway. If I don't see the changes I want in a suitable time frame though or if I feel I need to shoe for practical reasons then I'll do so and go for the 3D pads. I really like what I'm reading about them and both my vet and farrier (who are both very pro barefoot) say they've seen really positive results with them.