Countryfile: abandoned horses etc

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

OK so know this has been done before, but watched Countryfile earlier this evening, where there was a feature on abandoned horses, and the presented reminded views of Princess Anne's comments (she is President of WHW which is something I didn't know).......... and her views were/are that if horses were included into the food chain, i.e. slaughtered for food; there might be an improvement of the situation as regards unwanted & abandoned horses in the UK - as then horses would be deemed "worth" something, i.e. as a food source rather than worthless.

The viewer was then shown an interview with the proprietor of Potters Abattoir in Somerset.......... all very nice, clean, and clinical. No harsh realities of blood & gore everywhere (sorry, being cynical here), who sends horse carcasses to the continent on a regular basis. Then the scene switched to a town where there were some chefs cooking up horsemeat, and asking members of the public to sample same, and various opinions on the topic were expressed.

Then the Humane Society expressed a contrary view, i.e. concern that as horses were "flight animals" it wasn't the same as slaughtering say cows/sheep etc., as horses are naturally prone to get far more stressed than a bovine animal simply due to their intrinsic make-up.

IMO it was a very well thought-out piece of journalism, giving good balance to either side of the debate.

I guess my main concern would be if horses WERE "officially" as it were, put into the food chain in the UK, is that the n'er do wells of society would then see horses as an immediate source of cash, i.e. steal from the fields, apply for a new passport, and then take the poor unfortunate animal to an abattoir and get easy money for the meat-price. Unthinkable, but it would be every horse owner's worst nightmare.

What did other people think?

 

[L&M]

I totally understand the Humane Society's pov and am against horse transportation abroad for slaughter. However if there was a horse meat market in this country, surely this problem would be resolved as the need for a long and stressful journey would be eliminated.

I am with Princess Anne on this - to make horses a more valuable commodity in my mind can only help improve the welfare and totally support the concept of eating horsemeat.

 

[Echo Bravo]

Pity they hadn't the guts to say the abandoned horses were mostly traveller bred and no I can't see putting horse meat on the British plate will make them more valuable, just get more being bred for the table.

 

[pines of rome]

I would also worry that this would encourage more horse thefts and some horses might not be given medication when they need it, so that they can go for meat!
I am also not convinced that they would be killed humanely and I would never eat horse as I would not eat dog or cat either! Will they suggest that next, with so many unwanted pets in this country!!!

 

[jrp204]

Rearing horses for meat would then put them under better welfare laws and be regulated by Animal health who have way more power than RSPCA etc. animals would be reared more along 'farm animal' lines so would be killed younger and bred to produce a more commercial carcass. I don't think it would increase horse theft, you would still need a passport for slaughter just as you would with cattle, without one the animal wouldn't go into the food chain reducing its value.
Live animal exports should not take place, we should support our abattoirs ideally increasing their numbers so animals of all kinds don't have to be transported so far.

 

[Rollin]

There was an article published on Southern CB website a few years ago explaining why slaughter is more traumatic for horses than other animals. The author said that horses will fight and fight to survive.

If you ride you will know how a horse tunes into your own emotions and feelings.

I for one won't ever approve of horses going to slaughter houses.

 

[flojo]

It was a very reasoned argument on both sides and I don't think that there is an easy answer to the problem.
I was concerned by the thought that some horses may be denied medical attention due to the fact that many drugs would rule the animals out of the food chain.

 

[jrp204]

It was a very reasoned argument on both sides and I don't think that there is an easy answer to the problem.
I was concerned by the thought that some horses may be denied medical attention due to the fact that many drugs would rule the animals out of the food chain.

An animal reared for meat would be treated differently, we can use painkillers in our sheep that doesn't stop them going into the food chain, maybe there is something else that horses can be given? You would be dealing with an animal that would likely be reared in a group with very little handling and would be slaughtered probably before it is 2 so hopefully would be less likely to require painkillers. As with other drugs or wormers with a meat withhold period any animal that was killed within the withhold the meat would be condemned or not go for human consumption.

 

[Echo Bravo]

But didn't the man from Potters say that the older horse produces the better meat.

 

[hackneylass2]

I agree with the points raised by Echo, Pines and Rollin.

My views are that the individuals who are turning out 'coloured cob' types will just breed more and more, and we all know that these unfortunates don't get the best care.

The passport system is no safeguard for horses, as has already been proved. I believe an abbattor 'facilitated' passports in some way not too long ago. How many posters on here have sent a horse to 'the abbattoir that is not Potters' and thought all was good...and are now perhaps cringing at the end their horse probably suffered? Maybe out of sight out of mind?

Horses do not mature and gain weight as quickly as beef cattle, because they have not been bred as meat producing animals.....and horsemeat is less valuable than beef, so where is the business sense in rearing them? Anyone who thinks that if horses were reared for meat here on a commercial scale they would enjoy better welfare is, IMO residing in cloud cuckoo land. There would just be more of the same. Low end breeders making a quick buck with no or little overheads and even less morals.

Potters work on a small scale, scale that up and see how humane things become... perhaps the people for horsemeat production might do well to familiarise theirselves with the work of Temple Grandin. As well as flight response, which I guess is present within all animals to a greater or lesser extent, the horse has one thing physiologically that puts it at a greater risk - its long neck. Think about it.

That said, I also think where do we go next? Cats, dogs...two more companion animals that serve us well. I think we can manage without another meat as we do have a decent range of them to choose from already. How many people would send their cat or dog away to be shot if there were a little money in it?

Of course, its one way to turn a 600 quid loss into perhaps a 200 quid gain when your old stager has to go. On a purely emotional basis, I do think that historically, we in Britain held the horse in much higher regard than that of our Continental cousins, I feel that if the horse is relegated as just another food animal, we will lose some of our historic, and yes, perhaps romantic, connections with the horse.

 

[dogatemysalad]

Reducing the number of horses bred for the racing industry might help reduce the number of surplus animals.

Using horses for horsemeat will not improve welfare. Withholding medication is inhumane. Horses are flight animals and refusing treatment for injury or illness is unacceptable.

They are difficult to slaughter because of their sensitivity and flight response.

My membership of the WHW is nearly due for renewal. Think I'll save my money and cancel it, as they've lost the plot.

 

[hackneylass2]

WHW is gone for me too.
As for Princess Anne... well I'm sure she quite happily eats horsemeat regularly and sends her discarded horses off to the abbattoir.
Wonder why Doublet was buried? She missed out on a few quid there didn't she!

 

[Queenbee]

I thought it was a very well presented piece, yes if we were to go down that route there would be hurdles to overcome and it wouldn't solve the current welfare issue in the short term but as a long term plan, as much as i love horses, I have to say in this current situation the equine world finds itself in I wouldn't be against it happening, I would actively support it. We simply can not keep going as we are, and this would bring some changes that may well benefit in the long run. I think hackneylass that your statement is a bit flippant, that's not to say I don't respect your views, but advocating such a movement does not mean you have to lead by example and send your horse off for slaughter, ebony was PTS, then burried on my OH's farm (now my ex OH but I know where she is) Ben will be put to sleep at home with those who love him around him when the time comes, but then I would never ever starve, neglect or badly treat any of my animals, I would always scrape together the money to give them the dignified end that they deserve. Others simply don't do this, they do neglect, they do sell on problems or give them away, or even turn them loose in pain and malnourished... For those people (as much as they should be the ones being shot) there needs to be another option, when faced with a bill for PTS of course they don't give a toss about the animal, they just move it on or leave it to waste away, anything rather than spending money on it, however if they could make money on it, then maybe, just maybe these horses would receive a different fate. No, it's not ideal, but tell me what you truly think is worse, long term suffering and pain - being neglected, starved, and dumped or a trip to the bullet man? To me it is a simple equation. It's not something any of us ever wanted to consider, but in all honesty if you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the entire equine community, for not respecting their animals better to stop this awful crisis happening in the first place.

 

[Dry Rot]

Are horses more difficult to slaughter than, say, red deer which are farmed commercially on a growing scale these days?

I don't like the thought of it, but something has to be done.

 

[eahotson]

I thought it was a very well presented piece, yes if we were to go down that route there would be hurdles to overcome and it wouldn't solve the current welfare issue in the short term but as a long term plan, as much as i love horses, I have to say in this current situation the equine world finds itself in I wouldn't be against it happening, I would actively support it. We simply can not keep going as we are, and this would bring some changes that may well benefit in the long run. I think hackneylass that your statement is a bit flippant, that's not to say I don't respect your views, but advocating such a movement does not mean you have to lead by example and send your horse off for slaughter, ebony was PTS, then burried on my OH's farm (now my ex OH but I know where she is) Ben will be put to sleep at home with those who love him around him when the time comes, but then I would never ever starve, neglect or badly treat any of my animals, I would always scrape together the money to give them the dignified end that they deserve. Others simply don't do this, they do neglect, they do sell on problems or give them away, or even turn them loose in pain and malnourished... For those people (as much as they should be the ones being shot) there needs to be another option, when faced with a bill for PTS of course they don't give a toss about the animal, they just move it on or leave it to waste away, anything rather than spending money on it, however if they could make money on it, then maybe, just maybe these horses would receive a different fate. No, it's not ideal, but tell me what you truly think is worse, long term suffering and pain - being neglected, starved, and dumped or a trip to the bullet man? To me it is a simple equation. It's not something any of us ever wanted to consider, but in all honesty if you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the entire equine community, for not respecting their animals better to stop this awful crisis happening in the first place.

That.In a perfect world it wouldn't happen.It's not a perfect world sadly.

 

[popsdosh]

Reducing the number of horses bred for the racing industry might help reduce the number of surplus animals.

Using horses for horsemeat will not improve welfare. Withholding medication is inhumane. Horses are flight animals and refusing treatment for injury or illness is unacceptable.

They are difficult to slaughter because of their sensitivity and flight response.

My membership of the WHW is nearly due for renewal. Think I'll save my money and cancel it, as they've lost the plot.

Let me tackle each of your objections in order .
Firstly how is the racing industry responsible for this oversupply of horses reducing the numbers bred will merely reduce the racing population so the industry as a whole contracts inwards as the horses that cannot/will not race will still be a fixed percentage. At least the racing industry has finally got off its backside to do something about the ones not good enough .Also if I am totally blunt several of those horses are better off dead than ending up with some of the cretins who buy them at the bottom end and have no idea how to keep them!

Using horses for meat will improve horse welfare as they will come under different legislation .I think you all think that if they go into the food chain there will suddenly be a breeding explosion. The animal will be worth little more as the demand is not there so why would people breed to this end. However the big benefit will come in that owners will be offered an economical end for their animal so maybe encouraging them to actually do the right thing for them. All this clap trap about not being able to use drugs is scaremongering as my cattle are treated with whatever they need including anti inflamatories and still go into the food chain. I repeat again under this one this approach will stop some of the neglect that results from owners who see the cost of disposal being a large hurdle to a decent and timely end for their horses!!

Horses are no more difficult to slaughter humanely than any other species the facilities just need to be designed properly to accommodate them.

To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.

 

[planete]

A huge 'like' for popdosh's post.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

All this clap trap about not being able to use drugs is scaremongering as my cattle are treated with whatever they need including anti inflamatories and still go into the food chain. I repeat again under this one this approach will stop some of the neglect that results from owners who see the cost of disposal being a large hurdle to a decent and timely end for their horses!!

Horses are no more difficult to slaughter humanely than any other species the facilities just need to be designed properly to accommodate them.

To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.

great post.

 

[suestowford]

I guess my main concern would be if horses WERE "officially" as it were, put into the food chain in the UK, is that the n'er do wells of society would then see horses as an immediate source of cash, i.e. steal from the fields, apply for a new passport, and then take the poor unfortunate animal to an abattoir and get easy money for the meat-price. Unthinkable, but it would be every horse owner's worst nightmare.

This worries me too, particularly when you look at the poaching of red deer which is becoming very common on Exmoor.

 

[fatpiggy]

WHW is gone for me too.
As for Princess Anne... well I'm sure she quite happily eats horsemeat regularly and sends her discarded horses off to the abbattoir.
Wonder why Doublet was buried? She missed out on a few quid there didn't she!

Why make personal comments about someone you don't know at all? What good does that do? SHe is completely entitled to her opinion, and she is also entirely within her rights to use an abbatoir too. If you can't have a civilized discussion without throwing insults about, don't bother to start.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Princess Ann was just opening up the debate, which needed doing. Even if it isn't feasible at least its been considered and discussed. There are horses being deliberately drowned ffs, let alone all those poor old/lame souls who are being rehomed because their owners won't step up-all avenues must be explored.

 

[Rollin]

Are horses more difficult to slaughter than, say, red deer which are farmed commercially on a growing scale these days?

I don't like the thought of it, but something has to be done.

Hello, In the dim and distant past, I seem to remember a documentary which showed very special slaughter of deer. Use of marksmen and a spiral holding shute which reduced stress.

 

[rascal]

I agree something needs to be done about unwanted horses, but I also think putting them on uk plates would lead to more stolen horses. Ours are freeze marked and most are chipped, but for some slaughterhouses that wouldn't protect my horses.

 

[PolarSkye]

To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.

At the risk of being unpopular - I agree with this wholeheartedly.

P

 

[debserofe]

I would also worry that this would encourage more horse thefts and some horses might not be given medication when they need it, so that they can go for meat!
I am also not convinced that they would be killed humanely and I would never eat horse as I would not eat dog or cat either! Will they suggest that next, with so many unwanted pets in this country!!!

If horse meat was to be sold and eaten here then there would be stricter adherence to the rules and checking of passports so it may actually prevent horses being stolen and sent to abbatoirs in countries where, in some cases, the rules around transportation and slaughter of animals is not as strict.

 

[Cortez]

Let me tackle each of your objections in order .
Firstly how is the racing industry responsible for this oversupply of horses reducing the numbers bred will merely reduce the racing population so the industry as a whole contracts inwards as the horses that cannot/will not race will still be a fixed percentage. At least the racing industry has finally got off its backside to do something about the ones not good enough .Also if I am totally blunt several of those horses are better off dead than ending up with some of the cretins who buy them at the bottom end and have no idea how to keep them!

Using horses for meat will improve horse welfare as they will come under different legislation .I think you all think that if they go into the food chain there will suddenly be a breeding explosion. The animal will be worth little more as the demand is not there so why would people breed to this end. However the big benefit will come in that owners will be offered an economical end for their animal so maybe encouraging them to actually do the right thing for them. All this clap trap about not being able to use drugs is scaremongering as my cattle are treated with whatever they need including anti inflamatories and still go into the food chain. I repeat again under this one this approach will stop some of the neglect that results from owners who see the cost of disposal being a large hurdle to a decent and timely end for their horses!!

Horses are no more difficult to slaughter humanely than any other species the facilities just need to be designed properly to accommodate them.

To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.

This is the most sense I have ever seen/heard on this topic on here.

 

[Cortez]

I agree something needs to be done about unwanted horses, but I also think putting them on uk plates would lead to more stolen horses. Ours are freeze marked and most are chipped, but for some slaughterhouses that wouldn't protect my horses.

The only way to put horses on UK plates is if people want to buy the meat in the first place, which I predict will not happen due to cultural preferences. Therefore the demand will not increase, therefore the stealing of horses will be no more of a problem than it is now. This argument is spurious; the market is simply not there.

 

[splashgirl45]

agree with you cortez, a very sensible post....as deer are also very sensitive and they have come up with a way to reduce stress, we need someone to design something similar for horses, I do remember seeing something about the deer (may have been countryfile) and that sort of thing would be particularly good for the unhandled animals ...something needs to be done about all of the poor neglected horses and ponies ....

 

[Wundahorse]

A thought provoking piece of journalism,but agree more needs to be done to tackle to root cause of equine welfare,and this means targeting the very people who are creating much of the problem ; Travellers. Where we are,there are many very poorly bred coloured's that look as if they are not bred for any purpose. Somewhere,WHW or the RSPCA needs to get to grips with this increasing problem.
I can see no market for horse meat,other than a niche one.
Also agree Horses take a long time to develop muscle,and those of a much lighter build will not be that useful for the meat trade.Can't see any abattoir keeping a horse for 2/3/4 years while they grow and develop.

 

[Dry Rot]

Hello, In the dim and distant past, I seem to remember a documentary which showed very special slaughter of deer. Use of marksmen and a spiral holding shute which reduced stress.

My question was rhetorical. I live in Scotland where deer farming is not that uncommon. I also know deer farmers personally. Slaughter presents no problem at all. It is done quietly and humanely and on the premises.

Now, if Potters could be encouraged to franchise…. They do seem to have the problem licked.