Cortez
Tough but Fair
I suspect that most of us have actually eaten horse meat, if you recall the not-so-recent scandals re "beef" lasagne, etc......
Countryfile: abandoned horses etc
- Thread starter MiJodsR2BlinkinTite
- Start date
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
My point was not needing a breakdown of cost involved .It was merely pointing out that the cost of disposing of a horse is twice what it cost for an over 4yo cow that can only be incinerated and this also includes the cost brain sampling and testing! I just dont see the justification for this. The carcases from these cows are rendered and then used to fuel power stations.
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
No for one I have never eaten horse meat and I cook everything from scratch pity more people don't do it, maybe they would enjoy their food more and as for the rabbit situation many people stopped eating rabbit when the mxiy came in, as many rural folk use to trap and eat what they caught and when you started seeing skinny rabbits with swollen eyes not able to move drink or eat, people stopped eating and eating rabbit died there and then, breeders couldn't sell as many people didn't want to know, the only thing that has kept the rabbits going is as pets.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
Are you sure? Have you never eaten out? I cook from scratch too and I'm very careful who I buy my meat from . . . but I do enjoy a burger from a van when out at competitions and have been known to eat out everywhere from Michelin starred restaurants to little local curry houses . . . odds are I've consumed horsemeat at some point - and, if you have eaten out, you too.
P
siennamum
Well-Known Member
Most local traveller families are still indiscriminately breeding. Why are we having to even discuss cultural and infrastructure change to accommodate the preferences of groups of people who are responsible for this problem.
The animals we see suffering daily in the news seem to do so because of political correctness IMO. I get sick of it, slaughter the horses wholesale, properly enforce a passport scheme or similar. People can eat horsemeat if they want, the ones abandoned & starving are not fit for consumption anyway.
The animals we see suffering daily in the news seem to do so because of political correctness IMO. I get sick of it, slaughter the horses wholesale, properly enforce a passport scheme or similar. People can eat horsemeat if they want, the ones abandoned & starving are not fit for consumption anyway.
Alec Swan
...
A good post siennamum.
Another point that we could consider. I haven't read this thread in its entirety, and the point may have already been made, but were these horses sheep, or cattle, even those without ear-tags, they would be rounded up, sold or placed with a responsible person, fed and got to the stage of being 'Fit for Slaughter', and then they'd go in to 'A' food chain, and whether that would be for the Pet Trade, or for Human Consumption, would be immaterial.
The problem is that these animals are worthless, indeed it's worse than that, they're a costly liability, which explains their abandonment.
If you want to know who to blame for this deplorable state of affairs, do your research and come back to us and advise us just who it was who campaigned, in such a vociferous manner, to prevent the slaughter of horses. Seek out those who campaigned for the ridiculous 'Clause 9' on a horse passport, and who by underhand means had the use of Bute barred from entering the human food chain. Whilst your at it, seek out those who flatly refuse to support a humane and dignified end for our equines, and I will show you those who are responsible for this disgraceful mess.
Yes, I feel very strongly about the matter, and in all my attempts to encourage the restitution of a previously satisfactory system, so all that I meet with are the spineless. I've given up.
Alec.
Another point that we could consider. I haven't read this thread in its entirety, and the point may have already been made, but were these horses sheep, or cattle, even those without ear-tags, they would be rounded up, sold or placed with a responsible person, fed and got to the stage of being 'Fit for Slaughter', and then they'd go in to 'A' food chain, and whether that would be for the Pet Trade, or for Human Consumption, would be immaterial.
The problem is that these animals are worthless, indeed it's worse than that, they're a costly liability, which explains their abandonment.
If you want to know who to blame for this deplorable state of affairs, do your research and come back to us and advise us just who it was who campaigned, in such a vociferous manner, to prevent the slaughter of horses. Seek out those who campaigned for the ridiculous 'Clause 9' on a horse passport, and who by underhand means had the use of Bute barred from entering the human food chain. Whilst your at it, seek out those who flatly refuse to support a humane and dignified end for our equines, and I will show you those who are responsible for this disgraceful mess.
Yes, I feel very strongly about the matter, and in all my attempts to encourage the restitution of a previously satisfactory system, so all that I meet with are the spineless. I've given up.
Alec.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I totally agree ,but just need to point out that cattle or sheep without ear tags cannot enter any food chain. In the case of cattle unless the animal is registered within 28 days of birth and tagged at the same time it is impossible to sell for meat the only outlet being for rendering .
luckily it looks like from next year horses may come under the same agency for the control of passporting then things will tighten up!
The Bute thing is a different issue and I totally agree with that being banned in the food chain ,Bute was originally developed to relieve arthritis in humans but was withdrawn after several deaths and heart issues. However there are other anti inflamatories that can still be used in horses ie meloxicam or finadine which would not preclude horses from the food chain as long as the withdrawal periods are adhered to.
luckily it looks like from next year horses may come under the same agency for the control of passporting then things will tighten up!
The Bute thing is a different issue and I totally agree with that being banned in the food chain ,Bute was originally developed to relieve arthritis in humans but was withdrawn after several deaths and heart issues. However there are other anti inflamatories that can still be used in horses ie meloxicam or finadine which would not preclude horses from the food chain as long as the withdrawal periods are adhered to.
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dogatemysalad
Well-Known Member
'Most local traveller families' ? It is unacceptable to write such discriminatory non-facts about a specific group. Of course there are some that are bad, just as some are excellent.
I see more indiscriminate breeding coming from the general equestrian population. Some of which is not indiscriminate, only disposable.
Alec Swan
...
Phenylbutazone (Bute), was as you say, designed for human usage. At the dosage rate, and for humans there was a risk to a very small percentage of those who were users. In the infinitesimally small dosage which is used for horses, and considering that the retained amount of the chemical, would be further 'watered down', so the risk to human life is so small as to be negligible, and of no consequence.
The claim that Bute, or it's minimal residual levels, would be a risk to human life or well being, was the necessary leverage needed, by the campaigners at the time, and to prevent or bring to an end the 'Trade' in equines for human consumption. Coupled with that was the page in our modern horse passports whereby any owner, at any time, could have an animal removed from the food chain and so deny any future owner anything other than costly disposal costs. I'm not even sure that 'Clause 9' is actually legal in that I suspect that the ruling could, and perhaps should, be challenged in a Court, but that's another matter!
Alec.
The claim that Bute, or it's minimal residual levels, would be a risk to human life or well being, was the necessary leverage needed, by the campaigners at the time, and to prevent or bring to an end the 'Trade' in equines for human consumption. Coupled with that was the page in our modern horse passports whereby any owner, at any time, could have an animal removed from the food chain and so deny any future owner anything other than costly disposal costs. I'm not even sure that 'Clause 9' is actually legal in that I suspect that the ruling could, and perhaps should, be challenged in a Court, but that's another matter!
Alec.
siennamum
Well-Known Member
I disagree. I think you are falling a victim to political correctness. I could improve my sentence my adding the word 'seem', but most local traveller families have stallions & colts running with mares and herds of mares who are heavily infoal with yearlings running in the herd. I'm not saying there aren't excellent traveller families, just that most local (to me) are breeding indiscriminately. How is that discriminatory?
I can also state that many white neighbours of mine drive vans or are known to frequent the local. That is not discriminatory, just a statement of fact.
It's about time we stopped being afraid to state facts in case they offend, the consequences could be that we will have a crisis for hundreds of poor starved horses up and down the country when the bottom drops out of the illegal horsemeat trade......
dogatemysalad
Well-Known Member
Have you got statistics to prove your 'facts' ? I live (and have lived) in counties with large traveller communities and I would disagree. Perhaps they are just more visible than amongst the rest of the horse owning community.
Political correctness is not something I've been accused of before. It's made me smile though.
siennamum
Well-Known Member
There is a camp in our village, families there have 3 herds where breeding is continuing unabated.
There are numerous in foal mares tethered on other sites I have passed recently - all local. It is no different to other years. I'm referring to local traveller families, maybe in other parts of the country things are different.
There are numerous in foal mares tethered on other sites I have passed recently - all local. It is no different to other years. I'm referring to local traveller families, maybe in other parts of the country things are different.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
AS far as I am aware any new owner or indeed the present owner can lift that clause subject to a 6 month withdrawal period!
Queenbee
Well-Known Member
Well, there's a lot of poor people in the uk at the moment :/
Houndman
Well-Known Member
Yes. I am absolutely certain that if horse meat were made available to the general public at a lower price than beef, it would sell. Might not appeal to everyone, but it would still sell.
dogatemysalad
Well-Known Member
You're probably right, after all people eat anything from takeaways and the frozen cabinet. However, rabbit hasn't reached the mass market even thought it used to be available in large supermarkets.
Houndman
Well-Known Member
Rabbit is only cheap if its in its unprepared state. If you have to pay someone to joint, trim and package it, you are paying for extra labour and packaging so it's no longer cheaper than other meats.
Alec Swan
...
Good points made by both of the above quoted posters. The only reason why horse meat is as cheap as it is, is because the processors cut corners. Horses have the problem, from the viewpoint of meat production, in that it has always only ever been of secondary interest. The bone-to-meat ratio is so poor, as to make the animal an unviable commercial proposition. Sheep, for instance are bred for their meat and their wool, and cattle for meat, milk production and hides. Horses are bred for entirely different purposes.
Alec.
Pigeon
Well-Known Member
Introducing horses into the foodchain is like putting a plaster on an axe wound. We need to look at thoughtless breeding, and of course, what happens to racehorses when their career ends...
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
I would say most young racehorses that don't make the grade one way or the other do go into the so called meat market just like any other horse what ever breed or make. But the pits end is the travellers ponies who are bred with no thought, their thinking is an empty mare is an empty space, the colts go for meat. I bought a 4 month old foal 3 years ago from English travellers I know, and he has been nothing but trouble and a lot of money since I've owned him. He is out off a little welsh coloured mare about 13hh x Clyesdale (must have been a young colt) he has a slipping stifle and several other problems bless him, I do admit I love him to pieces, but as a riding horse not going to make it, he's going to be a field orniment and lucky for him that I have the space and money to keep him for the rest of his life. But I think I'm one of the stupid ones I felt sorry for so bought him, if I'd thought with my head I'd have gone for a young racehorse or arab.
3OldPonies
Well-Known Member
This is my thought as well. Especially since there is going to be no commercial benefit in rounding up skinny, disease riddled abandoned and neglected ponies and horses for the food chain, they wouldn't be passed fit for consumption. Whereas field ornaments like my well cared for oldies would possibly become prime targets for thieves.
3OldPonies
Well-Known Member
I've read a few more posts now and something has struck me. Houndman and several others have referred to the cost of PTS. So a suggestion to consider, what if the equine charities, instead of whinging that they are overloaded and their welfare offices saying (saw this in an article ages ago) that they are finding the constant recommending that animals be PTS extremely stressful why don't they start a subsidised PTS service? I'm sure that there are many owners who may be in financial dire straits would potentially take this up rather than leave an old or sick animal in pain or abandoning it completely. Obviously there would have to be constraints to stop people taking the mick out of such a service, such as a basic means test or similar to confirm that the owner couldn't afford the cost and there would have to be a connection to a rendering service, hunt or zoo or whatever but it might go some way to helping the current problem without creating a market for horsemeat.
Spook
Well-Known Member
I must confess to not trawling through this thread...... but are cattle and sheep not also "flight animals"? ~We eat them don't we? I agree that some cattle are flightier than others just the same as horses. Stress is not exclusive.
amandap
Well-Known Member
True.
Cattle and sheep are managed differently though so this may explain the less potentially explosive behaviour. They are used to being herded and being in confined chutes and areas. Flight animals can also freeze when stressed I believe.
Also most of us on this forum are more aware of stress signs in horses and identify with them because of our personal relatioships with them. A different mind set is required for farming animals v pets.
I am not saying Farmers are less caring btw.
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costin
New User
In my country, this type of stories are quite regular, although organizations dedicated to animal protection tries to change the way authority imply in this issue
The common scenario is that a farmer buys a horse in the spring, intensively uses it in agricultural activities, when autumn comes and he is in no need for the animal, simply leaves it on a field to starve. Local authorities can apply fees for bad treatments applied to animals, but they fear they would lose perfect people for voting process, so the poor animals have to suffer, to be tortured for people`s selfish desires
The common scenario is that a farmer buys a horse in the spring, intensively uses it in agricultural activities, when autumn comes and he is in no need for the animal, simply leaves it on a field to starve. Local authorities can apply fees for bad treatments applied to animals, but they fear they would lose perfect people for voting process, so the poor animals have to suffer, to be tortured for people`s selfish desires
Alec Swan
...
Where is the distinction, for you, in finding it acceptable for a horse to end up as flesh supplied to a zoo, or a pack of hounds, but then it being unacceptable for a legitimate trade in horse meat for other purposes? I'm assuming now from your last six words, that you would be opposed to the idea of a market for horse meat.
Are you able to accept the concept that if horses are given an end value, and that if there is a properly run and managed abattoir system, which is monitored, that this would bring, if not to an end, at least a huge reduction in the welfare problems?
The idea that the major charities, which are of phenomenal wealth, and being run by accountants, having every intention of hanging on to that wealth, and offering a freebie pts service, is a daydream, I'm sorry to tell you. The bulk of our welfare charities have no interest, whatsoever, in seeing an end to the problem of horse welfare, I'm equally sorry to tell you. They are very well aware that to support a legitimate disposal service which should be, if properly organised, self-funding, will damage their fund raising abilities, and as they are very well aware, then so we should be too!!
Before anyone leaps to the defence of our major equine charities, just answer yourselves this, if we didn't have a problem, would these charities exist, and would they be as wealthy as they appear to be?
Alec.
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jrp204
Well-Known Member
If horses were kept for their meat they would be treated the same, in a herd, they would soon get used to going into a race as they would be introduced to handling equipment from newborn, the same as lambs and calves do. Agree, a different mindset is required to farm, our animals are our living, we know all of our sheep individually (we breed pedigree sheep and some commercial) but our hearts don't rule our heads and we also don't humanise them which I think is a major issues with horse owners.
A market for horse meat would mean Animal Health would become involved and they do have power, unlike the welfare charities. This could only be a good thing.
amandap
Well-Known Member
Yes but this wouldn't cover the waste horses used for leisure and sport but might reduce herds of poor quality horses. Then again, farming under regulations costs money so I expect some would still breed quantity out in the sticks for the leisure market. The price of horse meat would shoot up.
jrp204
Well-Known Member
Effectively, leisure animals would become 'cull' the same as an old cow or sheep so would still fall under AH if they were going to slaughter or into the food chain. Yes, costs would be involved but maybe they need to be to help regulate and stop this indiscriminate breeding and to increase welfare?
amandap
Well-Known Member
Ah I see. Most sport and leisure couldn't go in the food chain though under current banned drug rules, recording and passport system, they'd have to go for factory use. Are you meaning they should all come under AH anyway whether farmed or leisure?
I still see two types of horses if farming horses was viable, so 'good' equine slaughter must be part of any plan.
ps. There's that old chestnut of regulating breeders/breeding!
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