Couple of very novicey breeding questions..

[cobden99]

I have a sec C mare who I adore but I think she may end up being too small for me. Im thinking about breeding a foal from her (she is 3 now), but there are a couple of things I would like to know. So :
She is 13:1, the stallion is 16hh (it would be AI). I would like to end up with something at least 14:2. Is it true that it doesnt matter how big the stallion is, the foal never grows too big for the mare as the size of the mares womb restricts the size of the foal ? Or is that rubbish.
Secondly, is it true that a foal 'usually' takes after one or the other parent - ie you rarely get a perfect hybrid of the two ?
Here is the link to the stallion I like :
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10437942&time=1178660254&z=nar5jE

Feel a bit foolish asking these questions but hopefully people who have bred a lot of foals will have heard it all before ..

 

[volatis]

Well first off a lovely choice of stallion, he has some very nice part bred Trakehner foals on the ground this year I understand. Can I ask why you selected him as it is an unusual choice, especially as he stands in ireland.

As for breeding a maiden mare for the first time, well I use the rule of thumb that I would go 1 hand bigger, but would take into account both sire and dams build. If your filly was a very roomy filly, broad with a good length to her back and the stallion was a blood type who wasn't known for throwing big foals, then I would consider something over 15hh for a 13.1, but whether I would risk going to 16.0hh I'm not sure. I have heard enough horror storied from well respected breeders about the risks of a mare trying to deliever a foal that was too large.

 

[brackenhappy]

i could be wrong and if someone wants to correct me that fine!!! but for a young maiden mare the height of yours i wouldnt use a stallion as big as 16hh as it may pose difficulties for her foaling. i know the size of the foal is resticted to the size of the mares womb but it may still be too big for her to deliver safely. i have had a foal before but this is my first time in actual breeding bracken for myself she was bought not in foal and one popped out 6 months later!!! i have found though that the people here are really friendly and the advice is very good. i also bought a book by janet lorch called from foal to full grown which i find very useful as well.

 

[cobden99]

Oh dear thats what I was afraid of, particularly for a first foal

Re : her parents, she is a Sec C x Sec D, so her dam is under 13:2 but her sire is 14:2.

Quite a few reasons for this stallion really

I know the owner of the stud, she had a connemara mare off me and is a lovely lady.
Out of all her stallions at stud he is the smallest ! (apart from the conemaras).
I know he has a lovely temperament, and has performed well at his few outings.
I wanted to add height but thought the Trakehner may be slightly calmer than a TB cross.
I like his colour - and my mare is also chestnut with white markings.

Still sounds like it could be a bit risky though from what you have said.

 

[S_N]

Yes it is true, that they reach their genetic potential once they have been born, but it's not something I would want to risk with my own mare.

My old horse, Topper (many people on here will remember him), was a Shire x TB, but IMO he was bred the wrong way - out of a 15.1hh TB and by an 18.1hh Shire. He had no end of problems - mainly joint related.

 

[S_N]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to add height but thought the Trakehner may be slightly calmer than a TB cross.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trakehners are known to be pretty sharp cookies - lovely people, but sharp. Personally, I'd go for the TB or TB cross.

 

[cobden99]

Yes I have heard that before - that you are supposed to put blood on bone as opposed to the other way round..
Well she certainly has plenty of bone - it just looks like I need something smaller to add the extra height and athleticism. I was going to say quality but she has that already - although I would say that, she's my baby

Shame, becase he is a lovely stallion.

 

[the watcher]

He is a lovely stallion but I would agree with those who think the difference in size is too much, especially for a first foal.
The secret to successful breeding, as I understand it, is to make small changes with each cross - the outcome is more easy to predict and you aren't going to end up with a foal that is an odd assortment of bits that don't fit together. If you look around you might find a small TB stallion (I'm guessing you would be looking for a sprinter type of 15.1 or so) that may give you the extra height you are after.

It is a risky game, TBH if the mare you have isn't right for you, and never will be, it would be safer to buy in a foal or yearling so you can see what you are getting and sell your mare on once broken. She will be a perfect size for somebody.

 

[cobden99]

Sounds sensible, particularly if am trying to increase height - I suppose I could put her to a nice welsh X TB but then end up with something at 14hh that wouldnt be what I wanted anyway.
This breeding thing is a long-term malarkey isnt it !
She is being reserved for a smaller almost-family member if I look stupid on her - not that they know that yet

 

[henryhorn]

I really wouldn't use such a big stallion on such a small mare. probably a 15.2 hh is the maximum and you should get a 14.2 hh out of that combination.
I find the second question more difficult to answer, all the stock by our late stallion were instantly recognisable as they had a "look" of him about them no matter what colour, shape or size.
Chocolate's youngsters all have his nice eye and good movement, and a fab walk that I recognise as his.
I've got two full sister mares who we have used to the same stallions every time, the resulting foals are similar but different yet both have identical genes.
The Matinee offspring are very different in shape and size. Our Chocx babies are similar sized and colours, but very different faces.
I would go and look at the stallion's offspring for starters, see how some of his traits pass on and others may not.
And really think about that big stallion, yes the mare does accommodate to some degree, but his penis may well damage her if he is well endowed and a bit clumbsy, and you may lose her and the foalif it turns out to be huge at birth.
I'd go smaller..

 

[cobden99]

Thats an interesting point because it ties in with a post I was reading earlier (from Tia I think), about whether too many average colts are being kept entire to breed from - and I do agree that you really need to see their stock before you can decide if they are good enough to stay entire or not. I wonder how many stallion owners would do that and then make the decision to geld ? Or would they blame the mare ...
When I last visited the stud I was wandering around looking at the youngstock and having a conversation with my friend (as you do) about what I would like to take home. I picked out three that I particularly liked - a foal, a yearling and a three year old. When we got back to the house the owner told us they were all by the same stallion but out of different mares - so he obviously passed on something I liked, although I couldnt put my finger on what it was !
Yes I have decided that the Trakehner, although lovely, is not a suitable groom for my baby

 

[snurse]

I regular breed from my 13.3hh pony using a 16hh sports horse stallion. However, she's hardly a maiden, she's also a very sturdy well-built mare, and she's watched all the time at foaling in case of difficulties. He does throw big foals with big joints. Last but one was hard work for her, but she was late (over-cooked it!) and it was big. Last one was easy. AS far as looking like one or other parent, it seems true. My old mare had 2 for me - one looked just like her although it had its sire's sharpness, the other looked just like dad. The pony mare (mentioned above) - yearling is the spitting image of dad (obviously without the stallion build) and the foal is turning out exactly like a bigger version of mum.

 

[ashbank]

I think you're wise to abandon the idea of using that stallion on your mare - as you and others have said, he is a lovely horse, but a bit big for a 13.1 mare.

I am sure some people would do it, and I am sure some of these people are lucky and get a foal safely born, but IMHO, it's just not worth the risk.

It's not so much the size of the womb that matters anyway, but the size of the birth canal. If her pelvic canal is narrow, a large foal may not get through it safely - especially if the presentation isn't spot on, which it often isn't 100%.

 

[cobden99]

Hi folks - thanks very much for all the sensible advice, I do appreciate it. Lovely though he is, he obviously isn't the right choice for my mare. Here she is after being told of her reprieve :

Arranged marriage ? Moi ?? I think not .....

 

[ashbank]

She is cute! I'm not sure what you want the foal to be like, but I would consider an Arab or a TB for her, or of course an Anglo.

 

[htobago]

Your mare is gorgeous! I know a 15.1/15.2 chestnut Arab who would love her

- but you would still only get about a 14.2 or so from this match, when it sounds as though you really want something bigger. So probably best, as you've said, to buy your next horse rather than breeding it!