Covering Certificate Question

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flyingcolors

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Can anyone explain to me why British Warmblood Studbooks accept the registration of foals and issue papers/passports without their application being supported by a valid covering certifcate from the Stallion owner?

As we are on the topic of standards set in Germany in comparison to the UK, here in Germany no studbook will regsiter a foal without an official covering certifcate.
 
Sorry, haven't a clue but must say I wouldn't be happy about it.
How on earth can you 'guarantee' the breeding is as stated if the passport's not been verified by the authorities? Wonder how many people think their horse is by Joe Bloggs and it's by who knows what instead!
 
Flyingcolours....agree with what you are saying here. Does the valid covering certificate in Germany have to be from an official breed society, or can the stallion owner make one up for themself? As I know of several stallions who are not graded or no longer graded and the stallion owners just make up their own ones, and these are also accepted here in the UK by some Studbooks.
 
What? I am in shock!
A stallion has to be registered at an EU recognized association, so that the stallion owner gets the correct covering list and covering notes. How can someone make a note up himself?

Hang on - that is a joke, isn't it??????
 
Am sorry Pendragon.....its no joke.
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There are many ungraded stallions in the UK, or ones that have failed stallion gradings, and the owners just make up their own certificates. These are then handed to the mare owners and the subsequent foals are then registered through some breed societies (as some of the Studbooks have an "Open Studbook" policy, which means that they will register ALL stock whether by graded/un-graded stallions etc).

There are many many stallions in the UK who are not graded, failed gradings or people are just using them on their own mares to produce homebred stock.

A lot of mare owners in the UK are not worried about using these kind of stallions, and while this happens it means that there were always be an area in the market for these types of stallions.
 
No, this is a total different story.

I did NOT give out covering certificates but 4 foals were apparently given papers from the British WB Association without me signing or giving out the covering certificates as three of these breedings have not been paid for! This is against EU law and rules!

PS The covering certificate is from the Association with which the stallion is entered with and paid the fees for, we cannot make our own that is impossible.
 
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No, this is a total different story.

I did NOT give out covering certificates but 4 foals were apparently given papers from the British WB Association without me signing or giving out the covering certificates as three of these breedings have not been paid for! This is against EU law and rules!

PS The covering certificate is from the Association with which the stallion is entered with and paid the fees for, we cannot make our own that is impossible.

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Flyingcolors have you spoken to the breed association in question?? I have to be honest and say that what you have said does not come as a shock to me! You would be amazed at some stories!
 
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Well, you have such stallions in Germany as well, but these stallions are mostly registered into stallion books II (without performance), so that their offspring gets a pedigree, although its status will still be pre-book.
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Pendragon, the foals out of the ungraded stallions etc are put into Foundation Studbooks also within the UK.....but many people are not bothered by this, in fact there would not be many people who actually study the passport/breeding papers to know what this means, all they worry about it having a passport and breeding papers (where applicable).
 
The answer lies in the Commission Decision 96/78

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Article 1

1. To qualify for entry in the main section of the stud-book of its breed registered equidae must:

- be descended from parents entered in the main section of a stud-book of that same breed and have a pedigree established in accordance with the rules of that stud-book,

- be identified as foal at foot according to the rules of that stud-book, which at least should require the covering certificate.


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Obviously studbooks do not want to become involved with disputes between stallion and mare owners where stud fees have not been paid to the stallion owner however they do have the right to decline registration of an animal if a covering certificate is not provided at the time of registration. I am assuming from my own interpretation of the wording that if they do register an animal without a covering certificate into its main stud book, then they could be in breach of EU legislation but I guess legal advice would need to be sought to clarify that this is indeed the case.

Evidently and returning once again to the same decision 96/78 Article 1

1. To qualify for entry in the main section of the stud-book of its breed registered equidae must:

- be descended from parents entered in the main section of a stud-book of that same breed and have a pedigree established in accordance with the rules of that stud-book,

Therefore if a studbook lists a number of recognised studbooks, or "breeds" in its guidelines the studbook must by law register those animals into its main studbook (Register) providing it is accompanied by a covering certificate. The legislation does not stipulate from where and by who the covering certificate should come from but if one is provided by the stallion owner the animal must be registered.

My interpretation of it all is that if no covering certificate is provided the Studbook has the right to decline registration of the animal and legally MUST decline it.

If no satisfactory response is obtained from the studbook after lodging a formal complaint in writing within six months, then a formal complaint can be submitted to the EU commission, they will then investigate and should the studbook be found to be in breach of the legislation they may be fined, or at worst have their PIO rights revoked.

Hope this helps.
 
I have just spoken to them and they are very astonished and will try to find out how they could establish papers. I wonder what will happen once they find out there are no covering certificates from me at all.

I hate to be cheated, especially from people that claim to be your friend.
 
Indeed it happens in Germany, Holland, France etc the UK studbooks are no different from those on the continent as that is what EU law dictates, progeny from ungraded parents are simply registered i.e. in the the Cheval De Selle register of the SF, book II of the Hanoverian, or the Reg B of the KWPN.

As it stands, the majority of progeny sired by a stallion that is approved or licensed by a British Stud book will often find itself being registered into the same book within the main book as ungraded stallions in the continental studbooks giving them no greater status out with the studbook with which they are licensed or approved.

The latter generally has no effect within the UK, however foals sired on the continent by these stallions are at a disadvantage if paperwork is of importance to the breeder.

The EU laws are put in place to prevent discrimination of fair trade between member states and yet the continental studbooks are evidently able to do so as the laws stand.

We do have a voice but changing laws is a long and tedious process and the British politicians that represent us when these decisions are in the hands of the EU lawyers often have little understanding of how studbooks operate and fail to grasp how we are penalised.

@ Flying colours I have no idea how this has happened but if you have been affected in some way contacting the studbook in question would be the first step.
 
I'm not being funny or smarmy about this at all, don't think that, but perhaps the policy of no covering certificate or mare allowed home/semen not sent unless it is paid for - even between friends - needs to be heeded then things like this shouldn't happen and nobody would be out of pocket.
I do hope you get this sorted to your satisfaction, it leaves a very nasty taste in your mouth when it's so called friends too.
 
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Am sorry Pendragon.....its no joke.
crazy.gif


There are many ungraded stallions in the UK, or ones that have failed stallion gradings, and the owners just make up their own certificates. These are then handed to the mare owners and the subsequent foals are then registered through some breed societies (as some of the Studbooks have an "Open Studbook" policy, which means that they will register ALL stock whether by graded/un-graded stallions etc).

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Or, if they can pass the vetting, they opt for Weatherbys Non-Thoroughbred Section VII status, where you will find many of the stallions that have been failed grading or refused covering permission by their correct (original) studbook <sigh>

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There are many many stallions in the UK who are not graded, failed gradings or people are just using them on their own mares to produce homebred stock.

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At least the progeny from these will almost all be prohibited from taking part in the Futurity in future years. It may be a small step but it could help to concerntrate the mare owner's minds a bit. But by then the foals will probably be on the ground and the damage will have been done. :-(

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A lot of mare owners in the UK are not worried about using these kind of stallions, and while this happens it means that there were always be an area in the market for these types of stallions.

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Sadly true, but at least presumably flyingcolours' stallions were graded somewhere (being based in Germany) perhaps ZfDP, so at least the mare owners made a responsible breeding decision in the first place. However, the fact that they were not able to come up with the funds to pay for the semen doesn't help her cash flow much and means that they were actually totally irresponsible for deciding to breed at all. If you can't afford to pay the covering fee how on earth can you afford to raise the foal correctly?
 
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At least the progeny from these will almost all be prohibited from taking part in the Futurity in future years. It may be a small step but it could help to concerntrate the mare owner's minds a bit. But by then the foals will probably be on the ground and the damage will have been done. :-(

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Ciss how will you be able to know those stallions who are ungraded/failed etc if the youngstock are still registered with an Open Studbook?
 
Or, if they can pass the vetting, they opt for Weatherbys Non-Thoroughbred Section VII status, where you will find many of the stallions that have been failed grading or refused covering permission by their correct (original) studbook <sigh>

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There are many many stallions in the UK who are not graded, failed gradings or people are just using them on their own mares to produce homebred stock.

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At least the progeny from these will almost all be prohibited from taking part in the Futurity in future years. It may be a small step but it could help to concerntrate the mare owner's minds a bit. But by then the foals will probably be on the ground and the damage will have been done. :-(


But dont you think it is odd that these stallions that you are trying to exclude have had very highly scoring youngstock at the futurity this year so actually whose loss is it going to be.
Future Illusion (not having a dig here at all but making a point)
Is one that if for any reason doesnt grade will be excluded and yet he has produced Elite foals and indeed the Res Champion.
Ringo is another who produced many 1st premium winners and anothe who will be excluded.
I am not passing judgement on any of the stallions named here btw.
The other thing is that most sport horse stallions wouldnt go and hide on the Weatherbys NTR VII regisater now as they wont allow new stallions to cover by AI so a bit pointless if you want to compete it and AI.
As you know because we have had this conversation in person i have a Weatherbys NTR stallion but not a VII stallion mine is Weatherbys by his stud book but he will excluded as well which is sad as i think he has a lot to offer and certainly comes from a much more proven family than many so called eventing stallions.
At least my stallions mother was proven ,sound and talented and its a shame for us that my stallion had a near fatal accident so cant be graded.
But i honestly dont think we should be persecuted because of that.
We all seem to get tarred with the same brush regarding ungraded etc but there are often exceptions to the rule.
BTW my stallion gets covering certificates from weatherbys and his stock can be registered with whoever you like.
 
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Ciss how will you be able to know those stallions who are ungraded/failed etc if the youngstock are still registered with an Open Studbook?

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Not quite sure what you mean by Open studbooks. Which are they? If they are ones that issue Section X or similar to the progeny of two ungraded parents then they will be immediately identified as such. As for the others I thik it will just have to be a case of keeping our eyes open or asking NED to introduce a search element for graded stallion status into the entry form ...
 
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But dont you think it is odd that these stallions that you are trying to exclude have had very highly scoring youngstock at the futurity this year so actually whose loss is it going to be. Future Illusion (not having a dig here at all but making a point) is one that if for any reason doesnt grade will be excluded and yet he has produced Elite foals and indeed the Res Champion.
Ringo is another who produced many 1st premium winners and anothe who will be excluded.
I am not passing judgement on any of the stallions named here btw.

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As most people know I do not condone the use of ungraded stallions in sports horse studbooks (except for TBs where the rules of licencing and inspection have always been different becuase of the demands of racing) and it need to be born in mind that these two ungraded stallions have been carefully promoted by their use on top class mares (sometimes leased to the stallion owner for just that purpose) and the successes that this brings with it. But do we know / have we any evidence that stallions promoted in this way are actually capable of improving the mare (which is the role of the stallion in a wider breeding context) becuase the mare was so good to begin with? No we don't, and surely that is what informed stallion choice and grading is all about. As the Futurity has to be viewed in trhe wider context of improving British breeding, allowing it to be used for such short-term outcomes is not acceptable any more and personally I firmly believe that this change of rules is therefore the correct one.

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The other thing is that most sport horse stallions wouldnt go and hide on the Weatherbys NTR VII regisater now as they wont allow new stallions to cover by AI so a bit pointless if you want to compete it and AI.
As you know because we have had this conversation in person i have a Weatherbys NTR stallion but not a VII stallion mine is Weatherbys by his stud book but he will excluded as well which is sad as i think he has a lot to offer and certainly comes from a much more proven family than many so called eventing stallions.

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Actually I don't think he will be exclused as the NTR is his studbook of origin and he has been approved by them -- as has his pedigree -- so that would put him in the same category as (say) a Welsh Cob licenced by WPCS but not by SPSS. Section VII's that have mother studbook other than NTR are a totally different matter.

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At least my stallions mother was proven ,sound and talented and its a shame for us that my stallion had a near fatal accident so cant be graded.
But i honestly dont think we should be persecuted because of that.
We all seem to get tarred with the same brush regarding ungraded etc but there are often exceptions to the rule.

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And don't assume in a rush to judgement that you are being excluded now either <sigh>

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BTW my stallion gets covering certificates from weatherbys and his stock can be registered with whoever you like.

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Well, certainly not 'everywhere' as I am sure others will be bound to post contradictions to that, so don't over do it with claims like that here (very rash!)
 
Actually I don't think he will be exclused as the NTR is his studbook of origin and he has been approved by them -- as has his pedigree -- so that would put him in the same category as (say) a Welsh Cob licenced by WPCS but not by SPSS. Section VII's that have mother studbook other than NTR are a totally different matter.

Well actually that is differant to what i was told in a a very long conversation with Jan Rogers as the BEF didnt figure the differance between NTR stallions and NTR VII stallions unless the rules have been changed which i was told they wouldnt be.

The one thing i do agree with you about is that the futurity has been used to showcase stallions with stock by them that have been very professionally produced and out of excellent mares like you say no true indication that the stallion will be an improver of mares.
 
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Not quite sure what you mean by Open studbooks. Which are they?

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The SSH is one such Studbook, and will register stock whether by graded/ungraded/failed grading stallions. They just go into different parts of the Studbook, but all stock will get registered in one way or another.

So I just wondered how the BEF would know how to tell those youngsters apart from the others?
 
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The SHB is the same. The passports all look identical, whether it is a basic passport or a main stud book passport.

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It’s really farcical when you think about it. Because for somebody to grade their stallion it can cost around £500 in the UK to go through the grading (which may/may not include x-rays + 5 stage vetting), plus the Studbooks also want the stallions out competing, and to see progeny etc. So the stallion owner has to pay out quite a considerable amount of money to do all this.

Then you have someone with an ungraded stallion (for whatever reason before I am jumped on..
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), where it can munch grass quietly in a field, cover several mares, and the stock can all get registered. The owner does not necessarily have to have the stallion out competing etc, so have no big financial outlay.

And the only difference between the two is the colour/type of passport and/or papers for the youngstock.

The people who purchase the youngstock won’t really care which part of a Studbook the youngster is in, unless they are breeding fanatics, and as long as the youngster has a passport and details of breeding they will be happy.

I know of a few people with ungraded/failed grading stallions who also say that they are not bothered because these stallions are making the same amount of money from those that are graded, and that mare owners are not bothered because the youngstock can be registered regardless. Plus they feel that the youngstock are as good quality as those that are graded. (as has been mentioned above by Sallyf).

However the only way I can see the BEF "policing" (for want of a better word) the stallions, then they would have to have an up-to-date list of stallions graded with each breed society.
 
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Actually I don't think he will be exclused as the NTR is his studbook of origin and he has been approved by them -- as has his pedigree -- so that would put him in the same category as (say) a Welsh Cob licenced by WPCS but not by SPSS. Section VII's that have mother studbook other than NTR are a totally different matter.

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Well actually that is differant to what i was told in a a very long conversation with Jan Rogers as the BEF didnt figure the differance between NTR stallions and NTR VII stallions unless the rules have been changed which i was told they wouldnt be.

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Hmm could be a bit of a misunderstanding there -- will see what I can do to get it resolved. Perhaps we can include in the entry form a question like 'If resident in the UK into which section of which studbook was the sire graded/licenced and when?' That should do the trick if the system can cope with it -- or perhaps it will stop such entries even being made without resort to the NED system which would be even better :-)

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The one thing i do agree with you about is that the futurity has been used to showcase stallions with stock by them that have been very professionally produced and out of excellent mares like you say no true indication that the stallion will be an improver of mares.

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Which of course is why stallion progeny assessments in Europe are based either oon one (or several) complete annual cohorts of foals or a random group selected by blind number by the inspection panel. That stops such practices in their tracks!
 
Actually i think it is a three tear system really .
There are graded stallions out there who obviously pay to be graded vetted etc

Then there are stallions such as both of mine that have full stud book papers with a society that doesnt grade them but expects that stallions that are no good wont cover any mares so self regulateing.
They issue full covering certificates and we have to pay quite a considerable amout of money for them plus have them re bloodtyped ete etc before they entitled to be called breeding stallions.
BTW my covering certs for my GSB stallion are £260 a year so dont think we get it cheaply.

Then there are the un anything stallions who get away without having to pay anything as far as registration etc goes.
They are the ones that get away cheaply.
 
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