Covering Certificate Question

You see i would be more than happy to have my stallions stock looked at and this was something i talked to Jan about perphaps getting my stallion approved by the quality of stock he produced.
It would in my mind give him extra credence.
I am all for the grading system really its just that my stallion was being prepared and had been looked at as stallion potential by an SHB judge when he sadly tried to kill himself
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.
His mother was graded and i have an entire son of his that i would like to grade when he is old enough.
Its just sometimes that you feel that you are being alienated and it isnt always your fault.
i know that my horse is the exception to the rule but that just makes it harder.
 
If a stallion is to succeed at a grading and then in competition, he surely has to be expertly - even professionally- produced, at great expense. A horse that doesn't get this advantage doesn't pass or doesn't win. So how is this financially dependant advantage different from using good mares to "prove" the stallion? It seems odd to demand that the young stallion's mares shall be second class, in order to show how good he is himself.

I would have thought, too, that if he is only covering good mares and his stock are faulty in some way, it shows he is likely to be to blame; it leaves him with no place to hide; so that to a discerning judge it would be MORE obvious that the stallion is falling short, not less.

I also feel that something like the futurity ought not to press for exclusivity in this way; if the grading system is any good, graded animals will walk away with the prizes anyway; they will be better because their sire & dam have been superior animals and able to grade successfully. I cannot see why it should be necessary to try to squeeze out animals that are bred from ungraded stock - if they are less good than their rivals then that should show, in the animal, on the day. If this isn't the case, then they deserve their chance.

People have a lot of reasons for not grading their animals; injury, mistrust of some of the shenanigans that have often been highlighted on here, with horses being applauded by one body and dismissed by another; some breeders are breeding good stock which just don't fit the (subjective) ideals of any particular society; some can't afford the huge financial input to make their stock competitive at a grading.

If good animals are artificially excluded, then IMO the system is not working.
 
I think the point that Ciss was trying to make was that certain stallions BEF results had been helped by the fact that there owners had invested in large amounts of money in top class mares to show case the stallion .
But that it would be better to view a whole cross section of foals from differant mares not just ones proffesionally produced and selected for the futurity.
Having been to watch a futurity for the first time this year it was certainly very apparent at the one i went to which for them is good advertising.
Rightly or wrongly its not my place to comment on as it would be controvertial which i hope im not i just try and deal in facts.
Sadly some of us dont have those sort of funds to throw at these things but then standing and marketing a stallion successfully has often been about the size of the budget and not the quality of stallion standing.
 
From experience I know that some stallion owners buy up 'faulty' young stock and dispose of them so that only the good stuff remains, thus ensuring the 'good' name of the stallion. (One of Belgian's TOP sires started his breeding carrier in this way!)

From experience I know that some stallion owners will pay the 'quality' mare owner to use the stallion in question thus ensuring that 'quality' foals with good pedigrees etc appear in the judging ring and ensuring that the stallion is in the public eye.
 
@ flyingcolors: Personally I would write the Studbook involved and demand that they revoke the Passports and not release them until the studfees due are paid. Also send a copy of the correspondence to the European Commission.

Why should unscrupulous people be rewarded for their dishonesty?
 
Surely this is normal? It seems to be so in racing; if your mare is good enough you can negotiate a concession; the stallion owner needs your mare to give his stallion a chance.

Surely it has ALWAYS been about advertising? Even gradings are about advertising in that the best produced & presented horses do better...

It just seems so negative to demand that the stallion should breed poorer stock when he need not. It goes against everything that a breeder would wish to do. I don't think this is always about money, either; it can be just about choice, commonsense and a breeder's skill- and not putting something in foal for just the sake of it. Money might help (money always does) but I suspect that selecting good mares isn't as money-dependant as some other aspects of campaigning the stallion.

I think what the breeder really needs is information; if you have the proper data in front of you you can tell when a stallion has been favoured by high class mares and when he is doing a good job with more ordinary material. I'm thinking here of the sort of stuff you get in a TB sales catalogue, where the information on the dam line is hugely detailed and gives you a good idea of both the calibre and the life chances of the mare's family.

What we need is the NEDs database...

Despite this amount of information for TBs, the concessions for good mares are still given; so I wonder if a stallion does need good mares to show what he really CAN do in producing a world beater; and just "improving" mares that are average is maybe the wrong thing to aim for or insist on.
 
quote 'mistrust of some of the shenanigans that have often been highlighted on here, with horses being applauded by one body and dismissed by another'

hear hear!
whilst the efforts of some have to be applauded (at least the BEF and SHB classes are trying to improve on british breeding), personally i will use my own judgement when looking at graded / ungraded stallions in the uk/ mares / papers / covering certs / etc / etc in britain. for the simple reason, breeding in the uk is disorganised, fragmented, political and often like flogging a dead horse (!)
im not suprised at the original post. it shouldnt happen, but it does in britain. until we have a single organisation responsible for ALL breeding / papers / passports etc it will continue to happen.
 
This was not to get into a fight about ungraded or graded stallions. In Germany it is very easy to identify, graded stallions are book 1 and non graded are book II. If this is different in your country then it is a problem and you should do something to identify it better as people outside Britain may not even know they are buying stock from non graded stallions. I know of two non graded homozygous Pintos that are promoting their stallions as approved stallions overseas where people do not know. One of them even discriminating the two APPROVED homozygous stallions wherever he can. But this was not about that matter.

Here is the story so you may understand better:

I sold ONE frozen semen breeding to a client/friend. He begged for as many doses as possible to really obtain a pregnancy. I released him several doses with the written agreement that every additional pregnancy to be paid with another stud fee. One foal was born and I was told about. Then I asked about the other semen and got told that he could not obtain any further pregnancies. About a year ago I found out that he had indeed had another foal and now found out he had two more and all got papers from a British Association without me establishing a covering certificate nor giving him any further or additional AI documentation as I did not even know about further breedings so how could I. The two mares have been entered into further stud books in the meantime and have had foals themselves. I am really disgusted by this happening and being lied to so badly. I also wonder what kind of paperwork he may have submitted to obtain all these papers???
 
Flyingcolours - I am aware that most organisations now require DNA parentage testing as proof of parentage, thus superseeding the requirement for a covering certificate.... maybe the organisations that the resulting foals (from the unpaid coverings) were registered with, were done so in this way?? It is just a thought, as this is surely the only way to "credit and prove" the foal's bloodlines? Whichever organisation provided the passport would have no idea of the situation of unpaid fees, and as long as parentage is 100% certain then that PIO would surely be within it's remit to provide the correct paperwork and put the animal in the deserved section/studbook?
 
No, the EU law clearly stipulates that a covering certificate has to be provided to establish papers for a horse. Anyone can read it online. The DNA is just an extra.
 
@flyingcolours: Please let us know about the outcome and how this British breeding society will handle things.
I would be very interested in finding out how the "breeder" in question received papers for his foals.
Production of frozen semen is expensive enough and, except for the Warmbloods being used a lot, does not really pay off for the stallion owner. I would not like to face the same problem one day maybe finding out that I cannot do anything about it.

Your specific case is a real slap in the face of every serious horse breeder!
 

Then you have someone with an ungraded stallion (for whatever reason before I am jumped on..
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), where it can munch grass quietly in a field, cover several mares, and the stock can all get registered. The owner does not necessarily have to have the stallion out competing etc, so have no big financial outlay.

this labels me(above) my new stallion has never been presented for grading, which is a great shame as his previous owner never wanted him as a public breeding stallion, he was just for her to compete in dressage on. he got to medium, then he was given to students to learn on. he is 14yr now and the stud books i have contacted to try and get him graded with are not interested as the say he is to old? even his own register, but all his foals are eligeble for part bred trakehner papers, and yes he is out munching grass, costing me very little, but he is for me and my mares are all graded or have competed to a high level in competition.
 
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