Cows stuck on cargo ship - who can help

That’s exactly what my husband was,…and everything you say brings back so many memories, we were in partnership with a farmer and our shop was on the farm…I still have knives, well two…his steel knit apron…
One thing, I used to get dreadful hay fever and would go into large walk in freezer and it would clear!!
Unlike you I love beef and was delighted to find this butcher as I said….
We live in a different world now….
Sorry this was in reply to Adorable Alice…
 
Marshpiper said:
That’s exactly what my husband was,…and everything you say brings back so many memories, we were in partnership with a farmer and our shop was on the farm…I still have knives, well two…his steel knit apron…
One thing, I used to get dreadful hay fever and would go into large walk in freezer and it would clear!!
Unlike you I love beef and was delighted to find this butcher as I said….
We live in a different world now….
Sorry this was in reply to Adorable Alice…
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Wonderful memories. I think it needs to be remembered that housewives in my fathers era had the skills to cook and recognise all cuts of meat and get the best out of it. Father used to give cooking tips out in the shop, yet he never ever entered the family kitchen, not even to return his plate after dinner ! He ate his own meat every day of the week apart from Monday which was fish and chip day. He held the view that no meat is tough if the animal was not stressed or terrified at the point of killing. Something I always remember when I cook for my husband and the meat is tough, or maybe my cooking ability is crap. Who knows.
 
On a tangent, the book Sitopia by Carolyn Steele is a great exploration of what is wrong with our food system, its wider impact, and how it could be improved.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Wonderful memories. I think it needs to be remembered that housewives in my father’s era had the skills to cook and recognise all cuts of meat and get the best out of it. Father used to give cooking tips out in the shop, yet he never ever entered the family kitchen, not even to return his plate after dinner ! He ate his own meat every day of the week apart from Monday which was fish and chip day. He held the view that no meat is tough if the animal was not stressed or terrified at the point of killing. Something I always remember when I cook for my husband and the meat is tough, or maybe my cooking ability is crap. Who knows.
Same here, absolutely no abuse, stress whatsoever allowed in our local slaughter house, and so true re cheaper cuts of meat…in fact the guy I am going to now says it’s only older people like me ask for fat to be left on roasts etc….
I cook or used to cook shin, oxtail or stewing steak in my slow cooker overnight on slow or medium, have you tried that, with a spoonful of bisto powder….comes out melt in mouth….
Still cook small eye of silverside in slow cooker, chuck in carrots towards the end….heaven
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Burnerbee said:
An all too frequent event. You can, if you’re not already, become veggie and not support the meat trade.
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That's the only ethical, intelligent,informed choice. I do wonder how many meat eating horse owners on here would happily eat horse, or have? Their own horse? If not, why not?

Social conditioning and speciesism are extremly powerful, and profitable, forms of mind control

No animal, ever, wants to stand in line with their family, watch them being killed , then willingly suffer the same death ,for any humans' plate.

And before anyone says they are stunned first, without knowing that stunning then killing has to be done inmediately on each unfortunate, tightly constrained, terrified individual , and all the rest witness each one until it's their turn ...and stunning, by the legal definition, is very fleeting, literally seconds, and doesn't render the poor individual fully or even anywhere near unconcious, and that many individuals can see ,feel & hear everything, they just can't fight for their lives fully, desperately , though most try... Hope that clarifies.

I volunteered to do the vet checks in abbatoirs as a newly qualified vet and a lifelong vegetarian, ethics that very,very few meat eaters ever have.

Everyone should have to experience the reality of the modern,industrial,traumatic abbatoir for at least one full day, to be informed enough to actually form opinions on the horrific meat industry, " so called " local /high welfare/ RSPCA assurred" cliches included, as they all are transported to be killed in exactly the same hellish places.

No such thing as truly " local" dead animals sold as " food". That would be highly illegal ,punishable by a 5 year prison sentence, unlimited fines and lifetime ban on keeping any animals.

The days of local farmers raising, knowing personally, killing their own animals on site then selling them like the commodities they are to them, are long , long gone.

This has been illegal for decades, even though a few old timers still do it by illegally anally electrifying to death turkeys and other unfortunate birds in some well hidden backyard shed, and these hell holes are traced back as the source of so many festive human salmonella & e.coli infections , fortunately most have been put out of business .



And of course it's cheaper to be vegetarian or vegan than to eat flesh...completely irrational to say otherwise! . Or do the flesh eaters not have vegetables on their plates ,as well as death?

You can grow your own veg in plant pots, easy ,free and organic. That concept is hardly rocket science either.

55 years veggie or vegan, 30 years the latter. A cow is a horse is a pig is a goat , all individuals who bond with us in exactly the same ways, if ethical people give them the chance. Animal behavioural scientific evidence abounds. Billions exploited into existence, very few ever even see grass in certain extremely capitalist industrialised countries, inc UK.

Entitled, nostalgic, completely out of touch, irrational "local farms" people are naiive and conpletely uninformed on this . Even they have to admit how few cows, in particular, sheep, pigs ,all of them, we see out in fields now conpared to the 70s & 80s...and thankfully flesh consumption is reducing ,but that 20% reduction in the UK , in a bigger population, doesn't account for how few cows are in fields, inc on "local farms" now. So where are they?

On industrialised ,concrete, unspeakably cruel, battery meat and dairy "production units", in the millions in UK , in the billions in US.

So the hand wringing over the 2 500 poor souls stuck on that ship is extremely misplaced. That happens regularly ,it's so common , monitors try to raise media interest every week, but nobody is interested. Far too much money to be made globally out of commodities who ,after all, are "just burgers" to most, "steak" to the privileged few. This tragic, but not unusual case has been reported by anti Muslim , right wing , anti Halal agitators. The animals are nothing more than a vehicle for racism, very few actually care enough to not eat their kin.

Because, of course, they have to be live exports to be bled to death. But Halal deaths for individuals and standard UK deaths for animals are all unethical. One is not a "cruel" death and one sone kind of naiive , "kind", willing death. Both are cruel and horrific.

The UK only banned live transport for slaughter in May 2024. Live transport for breeding for the meat industry is still legal in the UK though. This involves hundreds of thousands of animals and is a loophole that still results in the ,cheaoer, live transport of all species, 95% of them female, to their deaths, just now with an additional few hours to days stuck on the lorry on a "breeeding " for meat farm, where paperwork is fraudulently stamped to say AI has been performed, before they get to the slaughterhouse. It's cheaper to do that than to meet the legal minimums of slaughter regulations in UK.



If you take offence at this, that's your severe cognitive dissonance, ego , very uninformed , nostalgic fairy story opinions and deeply installed social programming speaking. All easily evolved by forming intelligent, aware, scientifically evidenced ethics.

Spend a day or a week in reality, in a slaughterhouse, see horses being slaughtered in their dozens, eat them, then declare your , actually informed opinions,along with your sociopathic complete lack of empathy , conscience and gluttony.

But then, too many on here probably still whip , kick, force and tightly control their own horses,who never have any choice in their entire lives, and still have massive cognitive dissonance about their own ignorance on horse behaviour, ethical treatment, equine emotional health and no doubt there will even be a few who have absolutely no problem in devouring their own horses once they have no other"use" to exploit.

This is well worth a ban from this pro hunting, pro horse exploitation, antiquated, irrelevant, dusty old dinosaur publication.

Hunt Sabs Assoc Advisor, Animal Aid, Vegan Vets, Equine Ethology Science lecturer, Bitless & Tackless, Ethical Equine Behavioural Science , Ban Horse Sports, Defra & RCVS retired Vet.

This writing is my own personal, scientifically evidence based , informed view. My professional ethics do reflect my personal ethics as I have refused to work in any "traditional" ie uninformed or abusive, or exploitative animals as commodities settings for 25 years.
 
Leah3horses said:
That's the only ethical, intelligent,informed choice. I do wonder how many meat eating horse owners on here would happily eat horse, or have? Their own horse? If not, why not?

Social conditioning and speciesism are extremly powerful, and profitable, forms of mind control

No animal, ever, wants to stand in line with their family, watch them being killed , then willingly suffer the same death ,for any humans' plate.

And before anyone says they are stunned first, without knowing that stunning then killing has to be done inmediately on each unfortunate, tightly constrained, terrified individual , and all the rest witness each one until it's their turn ...and stunning, by the legal definition, is very fleeting, literally seconds, and doesn't render the poor individual fully or even anywhere near unconcious, and that many individuals can see ,feel & hear everything, they just can't fight for their lives fully, desperately , though most try... Hope that clarifies.

I volunteered to do the vet checks in abbatoirs as a newly qualified vet and a lifelong vegetarian, ethics that very,very few meat eaters ever have.

Everyone should have to experience the reality of the modern,industrial,traumatic abbatoir for at least one full day, to be informed enough to actually form opinions on the horrific meat industry, " so called " local /high welfare/ RSPCA assurred" cliches included, as they all are transported to be killed in exactly the same hellish places.

No such thing as truly " local" dead animals sold as " food". That would be highly illegal ,punishable by a 5 year prison sentence, unlimited fines and lifetime ban on keeping any animals.

The days of local farmers raising, knowing personally, killing their own animals on site then selling them like the commodities they are to them, are long , long gone.

This has been illegal for decades, even though a few old timers still do it by illegally anally electrifying to death turkeys and other unfortunate birds in some well hidden backyard shed, and these hell holes are traced back as the source of so many festive human salmonella & e.coli infections , fortunately most have been put out of business .



And of course it's cheaper to be vegetarian or vegan than to eat flesh...completely irrational to say otherwise! . Or do the flesh eaters not have vegetables on their plates ,as well as death?

You can grow your own veg in plant pots, easy ,free and organic. That concept is hardly rocket science either.

55 years veggie or vegan, 30 years the latter. A cow is a horse is a pig is a goat , all individuals who bond with us in exactly the same ways, if ethical people give them the chance. Animal behavioural scientific evidence abounds. Billions exploited into existence, very few ever even see grass in certain extremely capitalist industrialised countries, inc UK.

Entitled, nostalgic, completely out of touch, irrational "local farms" people are naiive and conpletely uninformed on this . Even they have to admit how few cows, in particular, sheep, pigs ,all of them, we see out in fields now conpared to the 70s & 80s...and thankfully flesh consumption is reducing ,but that 20% reduction in the UK , in a bigger population, doesn't account for how few cows are in fields, inc on "local farms" now. So where are they?

On industrialised ,concrete, unspeakably cruel, battery meat and dairy "production units", in the millions in UK , in the billions in US.

So the hand wringing over the 2 500 poor souls stuck on that ship is extremely misplaced. That happens regularly ,it's so common , monitors try to raise media interest every week, but nobody is interested. Far too much money to be made globally out of commodities who ,after all, are "just burgers" to most, "steak" to the privileged few. This tragic, but not unusual case has been reported by anti Muslim , right wing , anti Halal agitators. The animals are nothing more than a vehicle for racism, very few actually care enough to not eat their kin.

Because, of course, they have to be live exports to be bled to death. But Halal deaths for individuals and standard UK deaths for animals are all unethical. One is not a "cruel" death and one sone kind of naiive , "kind", willing death. Both are cruel and horrific.

The UK only banned live transport for slaughter in May 2024. Live transport for breeding for the meat industry is still legal in the UK though. This involves hundreds of thousands of animals and is a loophole that still results in the ,cheaoer, live transport of all species, 95% of them female, to their deaths, just now with an additional few hours to days stuck on the lorry on a "breeeding " for meat farm, where paperwork is fraudulently stamped to say AI has been performed, before they get to the slaughterhouse. It's cheaper to do that than to meet the legal minimums of slaughter regulations in UK.



If you take offence at this, that's your severe cognitive dissonance, ego , very uninformed , nostalgic fairy story opinions and deeply installed social programming speaking. All easily evolved by forming intelligent, aware, scientifically evidenced ethics.

Spend a day or a week in reality, in a slaughterhouse, see horses being slaughtered in their dozens, eat them, then declare your , actually informed opinions,along with your sociopathic complete lack of empathy , conscience and gluttony.

But then, too many on here probably still whip , kick, force and tightly control their own horses,who never have any choice in their entire lives, and still have massive cognitive dissonance about their own ignorance on horse behaviour, ethical treatment, equine emotional health and no doubt there will even be a few who have absolutely no problem in devouring their own horses once they have no other"use" to exploit.

This is well worth a ban from this pro hunting, pro horse exploitation, antiquated, irrelevant, dusty old dinosaur publication.

Hunt Sabs Assoc Advisor, Animal Aid, Vegan Vets, Equine Ethology Science lecturer, Bitless & Tackless, Ethical Equine Behavioural Science , Ban Horse Sports, Defra & RCVS retired Vet.

This writing is my own personal, scientifically evidence based , informed view. My professional ethics do reflect my personal ethics as I have refused to work in any "traditional" ie uninformed or abusive, or exploitative animals as commodities settings for 25 years.
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I know this will offend many, but I could not agree more with what you've written.

Apart from you deserving a ban from the forum for posting it.
 
HaplessHorse said:
Actually, that’s not necessarily true, I had a teacher who desperately wanted to be veggie and completely morally disagreed with the consumption of meat, but she had a medical condition (can’t remember what) which meant that she physically had to eat meat. She was rather bitter about it. Apparently, it’s not as uncommon as it would seem, either, which makes sense because humans are omnivores. I would also suspect that medication for such a condition wouldn’t be available on the NHS as it doesn’t NEED expensive medication to treat, as one can just add a bit of meat to one’s diet.

I also find that, in supermarkets, free-range British meat (particularly beef) is becoming more available for lower prices. It only seems to be marginally higher priced than the cheap stuff, which can make all the difference to those having to count penny-by-penny, but for many it is affordable.
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There is absolutely nothing in meat that cannot be provided by vegan supplements. Scientific evidence has proved this beyond this kind of old wives tale a few people used to repeat. Anaemia is a condition that meat eaters are not immune to either. In fact, the highest levels of genetic ,life threatening aplastic anaemia are found in countries with the highest rates of animal flesh eating eg Kenya, Nigeria, Jamaica.

There are over 2 billion humans throughout history who never ate animal flesh. And the rest only ate it as an intermittent supplementation until very recently in terms of the history of human evolution.

The only species who need meat to live are the big cats. Every single other species are omnivores. Omnivores can and do thrive without flesh for the majority of their lives. Look at the biggest land animals like bears and gorillas, who have the biggest "carnivore" teeth ..huge grizzly bears live on fruits and berries 90% of their lives. Fish is their, very briefly seasonal, supplementary flesh. They only rarely predate other mammals.

Gorillas are 90% herbivore. Once or twice a year they may catch and eat an individual of much smaller monkey species. That's about a mouthful of flesh per member of the group, at the most.

There are millions of us alive and kicking today who have never freely chosen to eat flesh. I"m 57 , no flesh whatsoever for 55 years. No dairy either, for 30. We , and all the many elite professional vegan athletes , and your old teacher person, can all thrive without flesh, in fact health rates are better in the UK for vegans.

In the olden days, some people didn't understand how to ensure they were getting adequate B12 and iron , so the myth arose that they " needed" flesh.

Scurvy was also common in certain situations until relatively recently, especially on flesh heavy diets.

That myth of people " needing meat" was rejected a long time ago, as balanced dietary knowledge has evolved, the high protein ,b12 & iron levels of certain plants, seeds & nuts have been established and ,in the Western world there is no reason for any nutrition deficiency whatsoever now, as scientific supplements exist if someone lacks the knowledge or time of how to get everything from whole vegan foods.

55 years no fleah, still not dead from some mythical deficiency. There are millions of us out here.
 
palo1 said:
This, many times over! Meat and food more generally is expensive in a number of ways but you can either pay the cost of decent, environmentally sane, traceable foods and pay up front, or you can pay in human and animal misery (if you eat animal products) and in degrees of environmental irresponsibility. Nothing comes without all of these costs tbh. That is true of a diet including meat and vegetarian and vegan foodstuffs. And absolutely everything else we buy too.

Buying UK grown food at the very least reduces transportation costs and is extremely likely to be absolutely what you think it is, safe and if animal based, have a decent basic level of welfare guaranteed. That may not be sufficient for some folks of course and dietary choices are personal. Grass fed UK lamb and beef are probably 2 of the most environmentally sound, high welfare meats possible but probably best in limited quantities. Venison is also sustainable and ethical and often cheap if sourced directly from licensed hunters. I understand this may not appeal to many but it's worth considering.

Our lamb goes direct to slaughter - no long journeys, no markets, no long chain of producers. The lambs have spent their whole lives on grass, eating mountain herbs and being an element of local biodiversity including red listed birds, amphibians and rare plants and fungi. They are part of a soil regenerative system and every part of those lambs sold by a butcher are totally traceable. But yes, will cost more at the butcher for that provenance.
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All unfortunate individuals killed for their flesh in the UK all legally have to be killed in the same abbatoirs. It doesn't matter how many mountain herbs they've at least at access to for the brief few weeks or months of their lives, they all see,smell & hear the horrors of their families being killed in front of them.

No animal ever wants to die for your profit, or any humans' plate. No matter how you dress it up, it is sociopathic to try to make the reality of actually what every individual suffers and how they try to fight for their lives before they are stunned for a few seconds then slaughtered. Stunning by definition is extremely fleeting, a few seconds of anything from no effect whatsoever, to full sensory awareness but paralysed, to anywhere between. Each sees all their family go through this horror in front of them, tightly held captive because they fight so much to flee the bloodbath.

No animal for sale is legally killed on site at any "local farm" in the UK. As a profiteer of animals as nothing but commodities, you should know this.

But as you walk away from the live,innocent beings who only exist because you profit from them, you happily send them off, terrified, to their brutal deaths , you're not even there at their end.

What the hell do you know about witnessing the horrors of the abbatoirs?

Also, trivialising the legal requirements around Venison Dealers , the Food Standards Agency laws and various other laws on the sale of killed deer is just pro hunting propoganda, in reality members of the public have to check a multitude of legal requirements to check the "licensed hunter" and themselves are acting legally. This is due to lethal salmonella cases from, cowboy bloodthirsty hunters flogging their victims around pub back rooms , unlicensed guns, illegal hunting with dogs ,all the usual with such ilk.
 
Regardless of dietary ethics, I cannot believe that anyone truly believes that animals in a slaughterhouse are not absolutely terrified. I know an electrician, who is a very unsentimental, practical chap. He went to do a job in an abattoir and came out a vegetarian.
I was also appalled to see so may animals still being transported during our awful hot summer. The temperature for the animals unfortunate enough to be in the middle must have been unbearable. 30° is way too high a threshold.
 
Leah3horses said:
If you are saying "both your neighbours" are killing animals big enough for "roasting joints" on their farm for you to consume, that is highly illegal. 5 year prison sentence, unlimited fines, lifetime ban on keeping all animals.

As I very much doubt you live between two highly regulated, Defra inspected abbatoirs.

Boasting on a public forum about your privilege, entitlement ,ignorance, speciesisn and ,at best, sheer naiivete may have just landed you and especially "both your neighbours" in very deep trouble.

Freedom of information act request and complaint, with your comments screenshot ,for now, as sufficient evidence to H&H, and specific officers at both Defra & Dept of Food Safety incoming , the latter two who do not hesitate with legal investigations and prosecutions.
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I think you are entirely missing the point.

No one has said anything anywhere about home slaughter. These farms use local slaughter houses, which very sadly are becoming harder to find.

The discussion has been about the distance to slaughter, especially in relation to these poor cows on the ship.

I do understand that you are very anti-meat and this is clearly a very emotionally charged topic for you, but I would recommend trying to read the thread in the same manner that you'd like your own posts to be read - without presumption and with a level of comprehension and accuracy.
 
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On Monday afternoon I am taking a sheep to my local butcher. It will be put in a well bedded pen with other sheep the same age. On Tuesday morning it will walk through a door and end its life. On Friday I will be collecting a frozen pack of joints from my sheep. No stress except to my pocket - my freezer cannot freeze down a full sheep quick enough, hence him packing it and freezing at extra cost to me.

As to eating horse, there used to be an excellent horse butcher down Bridge Street in Goole. His main trade was the ships using the port but locals also supported his shop. The shop is long gone, along with at least five other butchers shops in Goole.
 
Leah3horses said:
All unfortunate individuals killed for their flesh in the UK all legally have to be killed in the same abbatoirs. It doesn't matter how many mountain herbs they've at least at access to for the brief few weeks or months of their lives, they all see,smell & hear the horrors of their families being killed in front of them.

No animal ever wants to die for your profit, or any humans' plate. No matter how you dress it up, it is sociopathic to try to make the reality of actually what every individual suffers and how they try to fight for their lives before they are stunned for a few seconds then slaughtered. Stunning by definition is extremely fleeting, a few seconds of anything from no effect whatsoever, to full sensory awareness but paralysed, to anywhere between. Each sees all their family go through this horror in front of them, tightly held captive because they fight so much to flee the bloodbath.

No animal for sale is legally killed on site at any "local farm" in the UK. As a profiteer of animals as nothing but commodities, you should know this.

But as you walk away from the live,innocent beings who only exist because you profit from them, you happily send them off, terrified, to their brutal deaths , you're not even there at their end.

What the hell do you know about witnessing the horrors of the abbatoirs?

Also, trivialising the legal requirements around Venison Dealers , the Food Standards Agency laws and various other laws on the sale of killed deer is just pro hunting propoganda, in reality members of the public have to check a multitude of legal requirements to check the "licensed hunter" and themselves are acting legally. This is due to lethal salmonella cases from, cowboy bloodthirsty hunters flogging their victims around pub back rooms , unlicensed guns, illegal hunting with dogs ,all the usual with such ilk.
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Abbatoirs DO differ, as well you know. Many, but not all abbatoirs use gas gondalas for pigs which is so appalling that the practice is due to be modified in some way. Our local abattoir does not use this method and has only a small number of animals at a time. That may not be the most common model but it exists, is available and it is inaccurate and disingenuous to suggest otherwise. But yes, killing animals is unp!easant. You are taking the life of a complex, sentient being and that deserves, IF you want to do that, respect, care and commitment to the least stressful end possible. I know that much. I have seen our lambs slaughtered, as well as the subsequent abattoir processes. The vast majority of people in the UK, who have little or no contact with livestock generally only care about what they want to eat and how to acquire that cheaply. I understand and respect your viewpoint about animal welfare, ethics and meat consumption and have myself been both vegetarian and vegan. I understand and am interested in human dietary needs and choices as well as the planetary boundaries around food production and consumption.
I do think the consumption of mountain herbs in our(and other) lambs makes a difference too, because being able to graze freely in a flock on rough pasture/upland gives those animals a life that enables them to express their natural behaviours with very little human interference other than for essential welfare (worming, foot treatment). Their lives are shortened and ended by us but whilst the they are alive we do our best for them. In a model where meat eating is widespread and industrialised, I believe this is better, more ethical, environmentally wiser.

I would respectfully request that if you engage in discussion where there are a wide range of viewpoints and experiences, you do so without making assumptions and without spurious or hysterical accusation of illegality or sociopathy.
 
palo1 said:
Yes, and your earlier point about people struggling to fundamentally survive is also right. It is possible to eat cheaply and more healthily and ethically but that also takes knowledge, energy and often time; commodities that most people struggle with. I think my comment was more aimed at the community here really tbh though I know horse ownership doesn't necessarily = affluence!
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Not affluence in terms of being rich, but if you can afford a horse or even to ride regularly then it the big scheme of things you are very affluent compared to those really struggling.
 
Marshpiper said:
I am a senior citizen on the basic state pension and also pension credit, I count every penny, my nearest super shop a litre of milk in a plastic bottle 1.45, farm cheaper..the meat from the butcher I mentioned is cheaper than the supermarket, as are his ready meals, buying a ready meal for one, is cheaper than buying all the ingredients to make them….
I have a dog, he gets a good quality dog food…..
I think you saying that people on here having horses etc is not remotely representative is possibly harsh….I know people who have horses, indeed different animals who give up all sorts of things to keep their horses….
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There are people who cant afford to turn the heating on. People who rely on food banks just to eat. I live with and amongst these people and its their reality. They couldnt dream of having the money to keep a horse. they have nothing to give up.

They on the whole dont have cars so are very limited to where they can buy food. But tbh most of them are fed by the food bank. So they get what they are given and make the best of it.

I'm stuck here till I finish my degree in April, my neighbours arent getting out. It was minus 2 last night with a feels like temp of lower. I'm very lucky I have a diesel heater. I have the knowledge and skill to get it and get it running cheaply, and also a car to go and buy diesel to fuel it. It broke last night. I managed to fix it, had I not then I live in a static caravan with no heating, no insulation and electricty I pay 70p a kwh for, I couldnt have run an electric heater all night. I know at least 2 of my neighbours have no means to run any sort of heater. I cannot imagine how cold they are.

Thats just the people here, the situation is repeated up and down the country. To those people having a car is a pipe dream never mind a horse. There are lots more better off but counting every penny to pay bills and feed kids. So yes, having a horse is a sign of being affluent, no matter what you give up to have it.
 
Leah3horses said:
That's the only ethical, intelligent,informed choice. I do wonder how many meat eating horse owners on here would happily eat horse, or have? Their own horse? If not, why not?

Social conditioning and speciesism are extremly powerful, and profitable, forms of mind control

No animal, ever, wants to stand in line with their family, watch them being killed , then willingly suffer the same death ,for any humans' plate.

And before anyone says they are stunned first, without knowing that stunning then killing has to be done inmediately on each unfortunate, tightly constrained, terrified individual , and all the rest witness each one until it's their turn ...and stunning, by the legal definition, is very fleeting, literally seconds, and doesn't render the poor individual fully or even anywhere near unconcious, and that many individuals can see ,feel & hear everything, they just can't fight for their lives fully, desperately , though most try... Hope that clarifies.

I volunteered to do the vet checks in abbatoirs as a newly qualified vet and a lifelong vegetarian, ethics that very,very few meat eaters ever have.

Everyone should have to experience the reality of the modern,industrial,traumatic abbatoir for at least one full day, to be informed enough to actually form opinions on the horrific meat industry, " so called " local /high welfare/ RSPCA assurred" cliches included, as they all are transported to be killed in exactly the same hellish places.

No such thing as truly " local" dead animals sold as " food". That would be highly illegal ,punishable by a 5 year prison sentence, unlimited fines and lifetime ban on keeping any animals.

The days of local farmers raising, knowing personally, killing their own animals on site then selling them like the commodities they are to them, are long , long gone.

This has been illegal for decades, even though a few old timers still do it by illegally anally electrifying to death turkeys and other unfortunate birds in some well hidden backyard shed, and these hell holes are traced back as the source of so many festive human salmonella & e.coli infections , fortunately most have been put out of business .



And of course it's cheaper to be vegetarian or vegan than to eat flesh...completely irrational to say otherwise! . Or do the flesh eaters not have vegetables on their plates ,as well as death?

You can grow your own veg in plant pots, easy ,free and organic. That concept is hardly rocket science either.

55 years veggie or vegan, 30 years the latter. A cow is a horse is a pig is a goat , all individuals who bond with us in exactly the same ways, if ethical people give them the chance. Animal behavioural scientific evidence abounds. Billions exploited into existence, very few ever even see grass in certain extremely capitalist industrialised countries, inc UK.

Entitled, nostalgic, completely out of touch, irrational "local farms" people are naiive and conpletely uninformed on this . Even they have to admit how few cows, in particular, sheep, pigs ,all of them, we see out in fields now conpared to the 70s & 80s...and thankfully flesh consumption is reducing ,but that 20% reduction in the UK , in a bigger population, doesn't account for how few cows are in fields, inc on "local farms" now. So where are they?

On industrialised ,concrete, unspeakably cruel, battery meat and dairy "production units", in the millions in UK , in the billions in US.

So the hand wringing over the 2 500 poor souls stuck on that ship is extremely misplaced. That happens regularly ,it's so common , monitors try to raise media interest every week, but nobody is interested. Far too much money to be made globally out of commodities who ,after all, are "just burgers" to most, "steak" to the privileged few. This tragic, but not unusual case has been reported by anti Muslim , right wing , anti Halal agitators. The animals are nothing more than a vehicle for racism, very few actually care enough to not eat their kin.

Because, of course, they have to be live exports to be bled to death. But Halal deaths for individuals and standard UK deaths for animals are all unethical. One is not a "cruel" death and one sone kind of naiive , "kind", willing death. Both are cruel and horrific.

The UK only banned live transport for slaughter in May 2024. Live transport for breeding for the meat industry is still legal in the UK though. This involves hundreds of thousands of animals and is a loophole that still results in the ,cheaoer, live transport of all species, 95% of them female, to their deaths, just now with an additional few hours to days stuck on the lorry on a "breeeding " for meat farm, where paperwork is fraudulently stamped to say AI has been performed, before they get to the slaughterhouse. It's cheaper to do that than to meet the legal minimums of slaughter regulations in UK.



If you take offence at this, that's your severe cognitive dissonance, ego , very uninformed , nostalgic fairy story opinions and deeply installed social programming speaking. All easily evolved by forming intelligent, aware, scientifically evidenced ethics.

Spend a day or a week in reality, in a slaughterhouse, see horses being slaughtered in their dozens, eat them, then declare your , actually informed opinions,along with your sociopathic complete lack of empathy , conscience and gluttony.

But then, too many on here probably still whip , kick, force and tightly control their own horses,who never have any choice in their entire lives, and still have massive cognitive dissonance about their own ignorance on horse behaviour, ethical treatment, equine emotional health and no doubt there will even be a few who have absolutely no problem in devouring their own horses once they have no other"use" to exploit.

This is well worth a ban from this pro hunting, pro horse exploitation, antiquated, irrelevant, dusty old dinosaur publication.

Hunt Sabs Assoc Advisor, Animal Aid, Vegan Vets, Equine Ethology Science lecturer, Bitless & Tackless, Ethical Equine Behavioural Science , Ban Horse Sports, Defra & RCVS retired Vet.

This writing is my own personal, scientifically evidence based , informed view. My professional ethics do reflect my personal ethics as I have refused to work in any "traditional" ie uninformed or abusive, or exploitative animals as commodities settings for 25 years.
Click to expand...

It is absolutely not cheaper to eat a healthy vegetarian diet than it is to live on processed crap. You clearly need to spend a week in the reality of people before ranting like this.

Your post would have had so much more impact if you had chosen to not use inflammatory language. Its this sort of thing, usually from vegans, that means people just stop listening and dismiss all attempts to discuss reasonable alternatives and just dismiss it as militant vegan nonsense.
 
I'm Dun said:
It is absolutely not cheaper to eat a healthy vegetarian diet than it is to live on processed crap. You clearly need to spend a week in the reality of people before ranting like this
Click to expand...


A while ago someone pointed out that in Iceland a pack of 20 sausages cost the same as 4 apples - £1.99 If you're feeding a family and on a really tight budget it's not the apples that will make a meal. Prices are a bit different today but the differential still applies.

Cheap meat burgers are less than veggie burgers and in this case neither will be particularly healthy.

Eating good quality meat is expensive, buying cheap processed meat products is not.

Pulses are great but you have 3 options, tinned with additives, jarred no additives but expensive, dried cheap to buy but take a long time to cook which is expensive.
 
I'm Dun said:
It is absolutely not cheaper to eat a healthy vegetarian diet than it is to live on processed crap. You clearly need to spend a week in the reality of people before ranting like this.

Your post would have had so much more impact if you had chosen to not use inflammatory language. Its this sort of thing, usually from vegans, that means people just stop listening and dismiss all attempts to discuss reasonable alternatives and just dismiss it as militant vegan nonsense.
Click to expand...
Leah3horses said:
That's the only ethical, intelligent,informed choice. I do wonder how many meat eating horse owners on here would happily eat horse, or have? Their own horse? If not, why not?

Social conditioning and speciesism are extremly powerful, and profitable, forms of mind control

No animal, ever, wants to stand in line with their family, watch them being killed , then willingly suffer the same death ,for any humans' plate.

And before anyone says they are stunned first, without knowing that stunning then killing has to be done inmediately on each unfortunate, tightly constrained, terrified individual , and all the rest witness each one until it's their turn ...and stunning, by the legal definition, is very fleeting, literally seconds, and doesn't render the poor individual fully or even anywhere near unconcious, and that many individuals can see ,feel & hear everything, they just can't fight for their lives fully, desperately , though most try... Hope that clarifies.

I volunteered to do the vet checks in abbatoirs as a newly qualified vet and a lifelong vegetarian, ethics that very,very few meat eaters ever have.

Everyone should have to experience the reality of the modern,industrial,traumatic abbatoir for at least one full day, to be informed enough to actually form opinions on the horrific meat industry, " so called " local /high welfare/ RSPCA assurred" cliches included, as they all are transported to be killed in exactly the same hellish places.

No such thing as truly " local" dead animals sold as " food". That would be highly illegal ,punishable by a 5 year prison sentence, unlimited fines and lifetime ban on keeping any animals.

The days of local farmers raising, knowing personally, killing their own animals on site then selling them like the commodities they are to them, are long , long gone.

This has been illegal for decades, even though a few old timers still do it by illegally anally electrifying to death turkeys and other unfortunate birds in some well hidden backyard shed, and these hell holes are traced back as the source of so many festive human salmonella & e.coli infections , fortunately most have been put out of business .



And of course it's cheaper to be vegetarian or vegan than to eat flesh...completely irrational to say otherwise! . Or do the flesh eaters not have vegetables on their plates ,as well as death?

You can grow your own veg in plant pots, easy ,free and organic. That concept is hardly rocket science either.

55 years veggie or vegan, 30 years the latter. A cow is a horse is a pig is a goat , all individuals who bond with us in exactly the same ways, if ethical people give them the chance. Animal behavioural scientific evidence abounds. Billions exploited into existence, very few ever even see grass in certain extremely capitalist industrialised countries, inc UK.

Entitled, nostalgic, completely out of touch, irrational "local farms" people are naiive and conpletely uninformed on this . Even they have to admit how few cows, in particular, sheep, pigs ,all of them, we see out in fields now conpared to the 70s & 80s...and thankfully flesh consumption is reducing ,but that 20% reduction in the UK , in a bigger population, doesn't account for how few cows are in fields, inc on "local farms" now. So where are they?

On industrialised ,concrete, unspeakably cruel, battery meat and dairy "production units", in the millions in UK , in the billions in US.

So the hand wringing over the 2 500 poor souls stuck on that ship is extremely misplaced. That happens regularly ,it's so common , monitors try to raise media interest every week, but nobody is interested. Far too much money to be made globally out of commodities who ,after all, are "just burgers" to most, "steak" to the privileged few. This tragic, but not unusual case has been reported by anti Muslim , right wing , anti Halal agitators. The animals are nothing more than a vehicle for racism, very few actually care enough to not eat their kin.

Because, of course, they have to be live exports to be bled to death. But Halal deaths for individuals and standard UK deaths for animals are all unethical. One is not a "cruel" death and one sone kind of naiive , "kind", willing death. Both are cruel and horrific.

The UK only banned live transport for slaughter in May 2024. Live transport for breeding for the meat industry is still legal in the UK though. This involves hundreds of thousands of animals and is a loophole that still results in the ,cheaoer, live transport of all species, 95% of them female, to their deaths, just now with an additional few hours to days stuck on the lorry on a "breeeding " for meat farm, where paperwork is fraudulently stamped to say AI has been performed, before they get to the slaughterhouse. It's cheaper to do that than to meet the legal minimums of slaughter regulations in UK.



If you take offence at this, that's your severe cognitive dissonance, ego , very uninformed , nostalgic fairy story opinions and deeply installed social programming speaking. All easily evolved by forming intelligent, aware, scientifically evidenced ethics.

Spend a day or a week in reality, in a slaughterhouse, see horses being slaughtered in their dozens, eat them, then declare your , actually informed opinions,along with your sociopathic complete lack of empathy , conscience and gluttony.

But then, too many on here probably still whip , kick, force and tightly control their own horses,who never have any choice in their entire lives, and still have massive cognitive dissonance about their own ignorance on horse behaviour, ethical treatment, equine emotional health and no doubt there will even be a few who have absolutely no problem in devouring their own horses once they have no other"use" to exploit.

This is well worth a ban from this pro hunting, pro horse exploitation, antiquated, irrelevant, dusty old dinosaur publication.

Hunt Sabs Assoc Advisor, Animal Aid, Vegan Vets, Equine Ethology Science lecturer, Bitless & Tackless, Ethical Equine Behavioural Science , Ban Horse Sports, Defra & RCVS retired Vet.

This writing is my own personal, scientifically evidence based , informed view. My professional ethics do reflect my personal ethics as I have refused to work in any "traditional" ie uninformed or abusive, or exploitative animals as commodities settings for 25 years.
Click to expand...
I'm interested to hear how people can grow 'free' organic food in any situation.

For the majority of people growing anything would be a hobby and the actuality of growing any quantity of food which could supplement a diet to any meaningful degree is completely unrealistic. How do you acquire an allotment or pots, seeds, compost (organic or otherwise), and water, for free? Gardening clubs and seed swaps are pretty inaccessible to most people and at a very small scale.

Most fruit and veg do better outdoors and legumes are tricky in the UK. Herbs are a possibility... I say this as someone struggling to actually grow meaningful amounts of fruit and veg on a farm where the ground is already paid for, the water is free, muck from cattle and horses is freely available though with a cost at source. I can't afford compost so have to make it which takes space and time. I'm incredibly privileged in those resources which are out of reach of probably over 95% of the UK population. Seeds are harvested as much as possible and I don't grow in pots. My fruit and veg are still financial luxuries (and with my level of skill and living at altitude, actually something of a financial liability...). Food is not guaranteed and it's very hard work which I actually don't always enjoy. I'd be better off working more hours and buying other people's produce. Most people don't have capacity for either. So, I guess a pot of supermarket basil will have to meet their needs as long as they have something to eat with that!

It's utterly delusional to assert that people can grow their own food for free.

ETA - apologies @I'm Dun - not sure why your post is included here: it wasn't intended!
 
Leah3horses said:
If you are saying "both your neighbours" are killing animals big enough for "roasting joints" on their farm for you to consume, that is highly illegal. 5 year prison sentence, unlimited fines, lifetime ban on keeping all animals.

As I very much doubt you live between two highly regulated, Defra inspected abbatoirs.

Boasting on a public forum about your privilege, entitlement ,ignorance, speciesisn and ,at best, sheer naiivete may have just landed you and especially "both your neighbours" in very deep trouble.

Freedom of information act request and complaint, with your comments screenshot ,for now, as sufficient evidence to H&H, and specific officers at both Defra & Dept of Food Safety incoming , the latter two who do not hesitate with legal investigations and prosecutions.
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you are very misinformed about FOI requests.
FOI requests are for requesting information from public bodies not private businesses. Also personal information about others is EXPLICITLY EXCLUDED and cannot be shared even by public bodies under GDPR legislation.
 
nutjob said:
On the price of food, I was reminded of this thread


Obviously things have increased in price but still quite a feat back then. Not the healthiest of vegan diets relying on very limited selection of different foods but no meat products of any quality able to be included in the super budget experience.
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A very different but also interesting read about food/choices is the journalist Louise Gray's book 'The Ethical Carnivore'. For context, she is an environment journalist having worked across the broadsheet newspapers and was, I think a vegan prior to writing the book. It's an interesting read and reflects both real contexts and those with a high level of privelege.
 
nutjob said:
On the price of food, I was reminded of this thread


Obviously things have increased in price but still quite a feat back then. Not the healthiest of vegan diets relying on very limited selection of different foods but no meat products of any quality able to be included in the super budget experience.
Click to expand...

I remember that.

Not very healthy, didn't include store cupboard basics or energy costs. I could use up that budget just turning the oven on.
 
conniegirl said:
you are very misinformed about FOI requests.
FOI requests are for requesting information from public bodies not private businesses. Also personal information about others is EXPLICITLY EXCLUDED and cannot be shared even by public bodies under GDPR legislation.
Click to expand...

Yes, very true. And equally to clarify evidence sufficiency, it actually relates to the likelihood that evidence presented would enable a successful prosecution.

Me saying that 'the price of mince, steaks and roasting joints of beef from both of our neighbours is less expensive than from the local co op and Waitrose' isn't remotely sufficient evidence that anyone is illegally slaughtering animals. It's a very wild leap to make, especially given that the rest of the paragraph talks about farm shops.

But I note that the original post has now disappeared. That may be the poster's doing or perhaps forum admin if they did in fact receive that complaint.

Either way, @Leah3horses , I hope you stay but perhaps consider tempering your delivery of your messages. As you are a qualified vet, I would venture that your approach to giving opinions must be more measured and scientific in that sphere, and I'm sure you'd have a lot of valuable information to share. Differing opinions on the ethics of eating meat are interesting and useful contributions when considering those crisis moments like these poor stranded cows.

Whilst I don't agree that championing locally produced meat equates to boasting on a public forum, I accept your point about privilege - I am aware that I am very fortunate, especially in comparison to the kinds of decisions that @I'm Dun outlines.

And I'll take under consideration your accusations of entitlement, ignorance, speciesism. I probably do feel that humans are entitled to choose to eat meat and, whilst I have visited a slaughterhouse before, I have never actually witnessed anything being killed in a slaughterhouse so it is true that I don't have specific knowledge of that part of the process. Am I speciest? I did actually consider this when we had the wasps nest in the roof of the hay barn. I ended up leaving it and the wasps have since died on their own I think. I think I try not to be but that at a default most humans value the lives of spiders differently to elephants, and most animals probably have a similar hierarchy. Naivety? Maybe.
 
Leah3horses said:
There is absolutely nothing in meat that cannot be provided by vegan supplements. Scientific evidence has proved this beyond this kind of old wives tale a few people used to repeat. Anaemia is a condition that meat eaters are not immune to either. In fact, the highest levels of genetic ,life threatening aplastic anaemia are found in countries with the highest rates of animal flesh eating eg Kenya, Nigeria, Jamaica.
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You can't compare aplastic anaemia, which as you've mentioned is largely genetic as well as autoimmune or chemically induced, to iron deficiency or B12 deficient anaemia which are not exclusively diet related. It's a bit of a odd arguement to make.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
But I note that the original post has now disappeared. That may be the poster's doing or perhaps forum admin if they did in fact receive that complaint.
Click to expand...

I complained. For the first time that I ever remember I sent a PM to admin asking them to look at posts as it was so far out of line and so utterly weird that they really did need to step in.
 
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