Cows stuck on cargo ship - who can help

I'm Dun said:
I complained. For the first time that I ever remember I sent a PM to admin asking them to look at posts as it was so far out of line and so utterly weird that they really did need to step in.
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Yeah, threatening FOIs and prosecution, especially for a fairly benign comment, was a bit far, even for this forum.

This discussion reminds me of the philosophical point made by the show "The Good Place." Essentially, no one in the modern world can get to The Good Place because the global supply chain and geopolitics are so interlinked and so complicated and so convoluted that no one can live a completely moral life. Even if you buy an organic apple, say, that apple could have been grown by someone exploiting migrant workers, who had to flee a war caused by the government of your country, which you voted for, etc. etc. You can only do your best - whatever that means to you - within whatever means and resources you have.

For what it's worth, OH and I made an attempt to grow our own veg in our tiny garden, but we live in the wrong climate for most things. I mean, if you made caring for plants in a greenhouse into your full-time job, you might be able to grow enough to sustain yourself and never have to go to the supermarket....But it's safe to say that most people can't do that, even if they have gardens. Nevermind the ones living in tenements.

Oh, and I really like eating meet. I am definitely going to The Bad Place.
 
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minesadouble said:
Some valid points made but not in the most amenable manner.
As an aside I've noted that previously Leah3horses has stated she is a Veterinary Nurse rather than a Veterinary Surgeon.
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That just makes it even worse if they werent telling the truth. What has gotten into people at the minute? It feels like the world has gone a bit mad
 
I'm Dun said:
I complained. For the first time that I ever remember I sent a PM to admin asking them to look at posts as it was so far out of line and so utterly weird that they really did need to step in.
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I will also admit to button pushing. It was so out of line.
Ive only button pushed once before and whilst not as bad as that time i felt it was warranted
 
Leah3horses said:
I volunteered to do the vet checks in abbatoirs as a newly qualified vet and a lifelong vegetarian, ethics that very,very few meat eaters ever have.
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minesadouble said:
Some valid points made but not in the most amenable manner.
As an aside I've noted that previously Leah3horses has stated she is a Veterinary Nurse rather than a Veterinary Surgeon.
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Definitely stated she's a vet here, I don't recall her previous posts.

ETA - ah just saw the posts above. You're absolutely right.
 
They have made some very ambiguous statements in the past too.
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And here is a screen shot of a search for leah3horses and the word vet.
In top post (this thread) they claimed to be a vet, and then 2 post before is claiming to be a senior vet nurse
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I'm Dun said:
It is absolutely not cheaper to eat a healthy vegetarian diet than it is to live on processed crap. You clearly need to spend a week in the reality of people before ranting like this.
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I haven't got anything very useful to add to this thread, you have all done a stellar job of saying anything I might have thought. However, I have to say the above is so very true. The past few weeks hoping for some health improvements I have been sorting out my diet and amongst most things changing to eating far less meat of any kind to eating lots more veggies and fruit. I am probably only having meat once a week now.

I assumed it would encourage me to stick to the diet as I would notice quite a nice little money saving on the weekly shop. Unfortunately not the case, the price of veg and fruit here in Ireland has actually cost me more on my weekly shop week on week than my usual choice of almost daily meat consumption. Lucky me I can actually afford it, but I have great sympathy with all low income families having to find the money somewhere to offer their children healthy eating habits with more fresh fruit and veg and wholemeal options. Slightly off topic but worth mentioning I think.
 
Leah3horses said:
No animal, ever, wants to stand in line with their family, watch them being killed , then willingly suffer the same death ,for any humans' plate.

And before anyone says they are stunned first, without knowing that stunning then killing has to be done inmediately on each unfortunate, tightly constrained, terrified individual , and all the rest witness each one until it's their turn ...and stunning, by the legal definition, is very fleeting, literally seconds, and doesn't render the poor individual fully or even anywhere near unconcious, and that many individuals can see ,feel & hear everything, they just can't fight for their lives fully, desperately , though most try... Hope that clarifies.

I volunteered to do the vet checks in abbatoirs as a newly qualified vet and a lifelong vegetarian, ethics that very,very few meat eaters ever have.

Everyone should have to experience the reality of the modern,industrial,traumatic abbatoir for at least one full day, to be informed enough to actually form opinions on the horrific meat industry, " so called " local /high welfare/ RSPCA assurred" cliches included, as they all are transported to be killed in exactly the same hellish places.
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As someone who has actuallly worked in an abattoir in operations management I do not recognise your description at all.
The animals absolutly Cannot see each other whilst the stunning/slaughter process happens, that WOULD be illegal.
They are herded into a line yes, but at the front of that line is a full solid barrier that swings closed behind each one. An animal is not allowed to enter that closed pen until the previous has been dispatched, removed for processing, the area swilled and the gun/bolt reloaded. Stunning is not momentary, it renders the animal fully unconcious, it is not momentary or fleeting, the animal is dispatched very quickly after stunning.
They absolutly cannot see, feel or hear anything

You need to go get actual experience in an abattoir, not watch a few PETA videos and then pretend you are a vet.
 
nutjob said:
On the price of food, I was reminded of this thread


Obviously things have increased in price but still quite a feat back then. Not the healthiest of vegan diets relying on very limited selection of different foods but no meat products of any quality able to be included in the super budget experience.
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I just went through to see the cost comparison and the meal plan I did with the beef curry and the porridge oats has increased from £9.99 to £19.66 and you only get 500g beef not 650g.

For the first meal plan I did with the jam and spagehtti it's gone from £9.95 to £14.49 - and actually it's only because half of it is Asda which is the only one that has gone up by 1p or 2p, not doubled in price.
 
conniegirl said:
As someone who has actuallly worked in an abattoir in operations management I do not recognise your description at all.
The animals absolutly Cannot see each other whilst the stunning/slaughter process happens, that WOULD be illegal.
They are herded into a line yes, but at the front of that line is a full solid barrier that swings closed behind each one. An animal is not allowed to enter that closed pen until the previous has been dispatched, removed for processing, the area swilled and the gun/bolt reloaded. Stunning is not momentary, it renders the animal fully unconcious, it is not momentary or fleeting, the animal is dispatched very quickly after stunning.
They absolutly cannot see, feel or hear anything

You need to go get actual experience in an abattoir, not watch a few PETA videos and then pretend you are a vet.
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I didn’t recognise the description either but decided it was too much to write/try to quote on a phone while also being susceptible at taking people at face value. Even from a purely monetary perspective stressed animals make for bad meat that spoils quickly.

Maybe not a sociopath then …
 
We eat a lot of venison. OH shoots them. He brings them home, I have learnt basic butchery skills. Something I never thought I would be able to do, but if I want to eat meat, then i should be able to do it.

Very little of what OH brings home is wasted. The dogs have bones, I get off all the meat I can, and scraps are made into mince.

The deer he brings home are living wild, bang and gone without knowing a thing about it.
 
ester said:
I didn’t recognise the description either but decided it was too much to write/try to quote on a phone while also being susceptible at taking people at face value. Even from a purely monetary perspective stressed animals make for bad meat that spoils quickly.

Maybe not a sociopath then …
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There are some abbatoir experiences that are horrific (gas gondolas for eg) and sadly abuse also happens but at a normal, well run abbatoir the despatch of livestock is calm and efficient. It could be better but it is, as others have said, bad for quality to have stressed animals. As the production of meat in the UK is industrialised and highly competitive it is very difficult to do things that really might improve the lot of animals in the food chain; more small and local abbatoirs, less travelling and less steps in the chain of production as well as longer lives spent in less intense growth and with more pasture provision for eg.

It's not entirely surprising that there are issues of empathy towards livestock when the majority of the population have no real contact with them, except to see pictures on packaging. That is, in part, a consequence of a largely urban population, many of whom are fully signed up to a consumerist philosophy so food has to compete in the budget with carpets, sofas, kitchens, clothing, holidays, entertainment etc
 
ester said:
I didn’t recognise the description either but decided it was too much to write/try to quote on a phone while also being susceptible at taking people at face value. Even from a purely monetary perspective stressed animals make for bad meat that spoils quickly.

Maybe not a sociopath then …
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I worked in a butchers for years and every so often we would get very dark, sticky beast in and it was always assumed it was stress that caused the difference in meat. It didn’t last and couldn’t be hung for the 21-28 days. A lot of it got minced. There is no benefit to stressed animals.

I will add no, I wouldn’t eat horse but wouldn’t eat grubs either. 🤷🏼‍♀️
 
ester said:
Yeah that’s pretty serious misrepresentation View attachment 169384
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conniegirl said:
They have made some very ambiguous statements in the past too.
View attachment 169385View attachment 169386

View attachment 169387

And here is a screen shot of a search for leah3horses and the word vet.
In top post (this thread) they claimed to be a vet, and then 2 post before is claiming to be a senior vet nurse
View attachment 169388
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I think the Liverpool Vet School will be totally horrified at this behaviour
 
conniegirl said:
As someone who has actuallly worked in an abattoir in operations management I do not recognise your description at all.
The animals absolutly Cannot see each other whilst the stunning/slaughter process happens, that WOULD be illegal.
They are herded into a line yes, but at the front of that line is a full solid barrier that swings closed behind each one. An animal is not allowed to enter that closed pen until the previous has been dispatched, removed for processing, the area swilled and the gun/bolt reloaded. Stunning is not momentary, it renders the animal fully unconcious, it is not momentary or fleeting, the animal is dispatched very quickly after stunning.
They absolutly cannot see, feel or hear anything

You need to go get actual experience in an abattoir, not watch a few PETA videos and then pretend you are a vet.
Click to expand...
As I posted before my late hubby was a butcher, we had a shop…what I didn’t say was I was the person who collected the animals from the farms and took them to our local abattoir, I won’t name it as very sadly like lots of other small exceptionally well run abattoirs it no longer exists….The one animal I refused to collect was pigs, why? because they had to go to another abattoir which was not well run….and I doubted welfare was a high priority….its also gone now…
I read the now deleted post and thought it was more of a rant…
I did see what happened at the first place and all animals were treated correctly and, as said in the above post they could not see what was happening and died quickly,,,,
My husband was 100 per cent against live transportation of cattle, to quote him “the only correct way was animals going for meat, was that they went out on the hook”
Totally different if expensive breeding cattle were exported, they are or should be cared for properly
 
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palo1 said:
There are some abbatoir experiences that are horrific (gas gondolas for eg) and sadly abuse also happens but at a normal, well run abbatoir the despatch of livestock is calm and efficient. It could be better but it is, as others have said, bad for quality to have stressed animals. As the production of meat in the UK is industrialised and highly competitive it is very difficult to do things that really might improve the lot of animals in the food chain; more small and local abbatoirs, less travelling and less steps in the chain of production as well as longer lives spent in less intense growth and with more pasture provision for eg.

It's not entirely surprising that there are issues of empathy towards livestock when the majority of the population have no real contact with them, except to see pictures on packaging. That is, in part, a consequence of a largely urban population, many of whom are fully signed up to a consumerist philosophy so food has to compete in the budget with carpets, sofas, kitchens, clothing, holidays, entertainment etc
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As a sort of aside I was funded by the English beef and lamb executive (who take a slaughter levy)

The vast majority of projects funded by them and the pig version running at the same time as mine were behaviour/husbandry based. Followed by digesters. I was a bit odd one out 😅.
 
TheresaW said:
We eat a lot of venison. OH shoots them. He brings them home, I have learnt basic butchery skills. Something I never thought I would be able to do, but if I want to eat meat, then i should be able to do it.

Very little of what OH brings home is wasted. The dogs have bones, I get off all the meat I can, and scraps are made into mince.

The deer he brings home are living wild, bang and gone without knowing a thing about it.
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We should eat a lot more venison. There are far too many wild deer, damaging habitats and being pushed into urban surroundings. The next bad winter we have there will be a lot dead from starvation sadly.
 
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