CPL and EMS - management and feed

[MrsMozartleto]

One of our liveries was diagnosed with CPL and EMS end of last week. Poor lad. So, much reading about how best to manage. This is where we've got to so far:

He's had a blanket clip with all legs off (he was heavily feathered, which was his owner's preference). I've ordered some blades for my clippers - how often should his legs be clipped off?

A medicated leg wash. I couldn't find the pig oil so have ordered and it should be here tomorrow.

Have ordered Hilton Herbs' Marigold and Cleavers.

Looking for the right cinnamon (apparently there are two types).

He's out 24/7/365.

Not worked as retired.

Vet booked to determine which mite treatment.

Vet happy for him to be out as the grass is dying off. We'll set up a small track system, and have small-ish paddocks that he can move around, come Spring.

Need a feed base of some sort - but what? Does managing one cause an issue with managing the other.

Any help would be most marvellous!

 

[SEL]

The CPL Facebook group is excellent btw

I use Simple Systems hay cobs as a base feed. Low sugar / starch is great for both conditions and they both need movement so hopefully managing one won't give you an issue with the other

I generally let M grow feather over winter then I'd sedate for removal around Spring. Vet might not recommend it but I used a wash with ivermectin based cattle wormer for the mites and piriton if he was itching madly. I also found linseed made him worse

 

[MrsMozartleto]

Thank you SEL, much appreciated. I was about to order linseed, will hold off.

I've been told cinnamon is good for the EMS, and the marigolds & cleavers for the CPL. I'm hoping the two don't combine to make an issue.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Thank you SEL, much appreciated. I was about to order linseed, will hold off.

I've been told cinnamon is good for the EMS, and the marigolds & cleavers for the CPL. I'm hoping the two don't combine to make an issue.

My cob can't tolerate linseed. She doesn't have CPL but her legs were sore and itchy when she had linseed

 

[MrsMozartleto]

Thank you Pearl. Will definitely stay away from it!

 

[tda]

Agree the CPL group is very good, loads of info and a tried and tested formula of treatment and management.

A friend's pony has been diagnosed recently with EMS and it appears restriction of grass is the key to management at the moment for her

 

[MrsMozartleto]

Thank you tda. I thought the grass would be a no-go, but vet says is okay for now. Spring will be another matter, so the planning is afoot to put a small track system in. Not sure how will deal with a pony that will stand at a hay station and eat until it's gone, then move onto the next one, so a couple of months to figure that one out.

 

[tda]

Thank you tda. I thought the grass would be a no-go, but vet says is okay for now. Spring will be another matter, so the planning is afoot to put a small track system in. Not sure how will deal with a pony that will stand at a hay station and eat until it's gone, then move onto the next one, so a couple of months to figure that one out.

Yes my friends pony has been having blood tests to monitor a level of something (cant remember what) and she spent the last few months building up to be out overnight, but levels raised again so back to a couple of hours. Pony also has arthritis so it's a real dilemma.
They are hoping to put a track round the field .
Lots of small hay stations spaced far apart! And a bossy field mate !

 

[MrsMozartleto]

tda it'll probably be the insulin levels that's being tested. Will suggest to owner that he has bloods done again in a month's time. We're keeping a close eye on him - weight (his body is doing the weird weight distribution thing so it's interesting trying to find ways to track it), and how his ouchy leg (the one that started the investigations) is moving and at rest.

 

[fankino04]

The retired EMS one I look after is on a woodchip track to avoid grass, weighed soaked hay in piles and then straw to keep her belly full without giving too much hay.

 

[MrsMozartleto]

fankino thank you. He'll have a companion or two, so the weighed hay will be more difficult, however they're weight watchers as well so the general idea will work.

 

[Equi]

Please don’t use pig oil on a CPL horse. Oil will make the legs more greasy, which is going to make the legs even worse.

A moisturising/medicated/dandruff shampoo, a good moisturiser like cetraben or diprobase and if there is any sign of itchy legs get the vet to inject for mites.

 

[Wizpop]

Injections for mites aren’t always effective. Some mites, often the ones involved in CPL, feed ofn the crusts and scurf so need a topical treatment that contains Fipronil. Fiprotec on Amazon for dogs- I pipettes per leg does the job, repeated after 3/4 weeks at about £12 a time. I know this through my own experience and by following the advice on the FB CPL group which is excellent.

 

[Red-1]

Rigs had both when he came, although the CPL creases are not too bad.

I clip every week and wash with shampoo after, making sure to get down to skin as opposed to crud. I make sure there are no scabs daily, I do use pig oil or other products that are greasy as they can help to lift any scabs in-between times. I don't clip if there are scabs as this is painful. If it goes out of control, I would wash/oil/massage daily until it is back in hand.

The oils etc do make the area appear more cruddy as they lift the crud. The trick isn't in the application of the products though, it is in the massage. If you simply apply oils etc then the skin will get very congested. I apply the product then massage. If it is bad, then I would do twice a day and shampoo more often. I have used a human psoriasis shampoo when he first came, then Head and Shoulders, now a very mild one. Once the skin is back nicely, he can even take a rubber curry every morning after applying the oil, which keeps the skin from getting thick. This is only once it is under control though.

I found P45 from Trinity Consultants helpful initially.

As for the EMS, Rigs was in the hundreds on bloods, but now is in single figures! It has taken a long time, and he has to be skinny.

 

[Highmileagecob]

EMS is basically type 2 diabetes. If you can stop the constant intake of large quantities of food and find a way of slowing him down, it is better than restricting food. Double netting, grazing muzzle etc. to mimic trickle feeding, or turn out on sparse ground. Your vet will probably inject with Dectomax, which will eventually kill mites but not until the formula has leached into the skin debris, which is typical mite fodder. A good selenium based shampoo will remove the skin debris and mites. Repeat on day 5 and day 10 to clear any hatchlings, and be sure to rinse well. Good luck, it is a difficult situation but persevere - it does get better. Are you able to exercise him daily? Exercise reduces insulin and I found I had to ride daily whatever the weather to keep Old Dobbin stable.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

Simple Systems are about to launch a new product called MalleMash which is aimed at horses with Mallanders, Sallanders, CPL and dry skin problems. No details on their website yet but a few suppliers are already advertising it as coming soon.

My friend is happy with their Lucie nuts for her CPL horse.

 

[abbijay]

Simple Systems are about to launch a new product called MalleMash which is aimed at horses with Mallanders, Sallanders, CPL and dry skin problems. No details on their website yet but a few suppliers are already advertising it as coming soon.

My friend is happy with their Lucie nuts for her CPL horse.

Wow, I'm really surprised at a CPL case being on an alfalfa based product, I assumed the high protein would have been a no-no. I had a conversation with someone this week who had no idea that Lucie nuts are made from Lucerne which is another name for Alfalfa and therefore not recommended

 

[SEL]

Thank you tda. I thought the grass would be a no-go, but vet says is okay for now. Spring will be another matter, so the planning is afoot to put a small track system in. Not sure how will deal with a pony that will stand at a hay station and eat until it's gone, then move onto the next one, so a couple of months to figure that one out.

I do know a small cob muzzled on a track because she pigs out at the hay stations!

Mine do not have hay stations. In spring when grass is restricted hay goes out am/ pm and when it's gone they can nibble at bits of grass and hedge. Even that didn't keep them slim with this year's grass growth.

You should be fine feeding cinnamon alongside marigold & cleavers

 

[MrsMozartleto]

Thank you all for sharing your experience and knowledge. I've not been good at replying properly, life a bit full on, but I am reading and taking it all in.

The Marigold & Cleavers arrived today. The Cinnamon is on its way. My vet didn't specify which barrier to use.

 

[MrsMozartleto]

All the supplements and lotions have arrived. Started him on the Marigold & Cleavers yesterday, which was tolerated very well, though was just a sprinkling, and now the cinnamon will be added.

A quick question if I may - the vet says he wouldn't be lame with 'just' the CPL and wants to investigate further, i.e. nerve block that first leg (near fore), xrays (as still thinking potentially lami related).

I don't see how they can, currently, be needed - the near-fore swells below the knee. He sometimes stands with that leg pointed forward but slightly to the side, with the leg straight.

He's out 24/7/365.

He is mainly sound but sometimes stands as above and doesn't move for a good 15 minutes or so. When this is happening his leg is swollen below the knee.

The rest of the time he's either as sound as a pound, or maybe 1/10ths lame, and he moves just fine.

One Danilon helps when he's ouching and the swelling goes down and his legs look equal.

I'm feeling a bit stumped at the moment as to the best way to help the lad.

 

[marmalade76]

X-rays and nerve blocks for a retired pony? No way!

 

[MrsMozartleto]

X-rays and nerve blocks for a retired pony? No way!

His owner would go for it if she could be told there's good cause and what's suspected. At the moment the references to chronic lami don't seem to fit the way his leg is swelling.

Interestingly he's, so far, better in the field paddock than anywhere else. He's still having a good hoon about when he feels like it.