Crate training - enlighten me

quirky

quirky

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 January 2008
Messages
9,849
Location
Purdah
Visit site
Firstly, I have crated my GSP's but only for travelling.

I am crating the IG puppy for safety reasons more than anything, he is so very small compared to the GSP's.

Anyway, I have a crate with a bed and some newspaper and a bowl of water.

He has spent 4 nights in it and he is getting progressively worse. He goes in quite happily (he was crated with his Mum and siblings) both during the day if we pop out and at night. In the day, he has been in it for 1 1/2 hours on one occasion and less than an hour on two occasions when we popped out.

1st night, he cried for about 15 mins part way through the night but we ignored him and he dropped back off. He woke at 5:15am :cool:, which was a little early but I wasn't too bothered as he'd been a good boy.

2nd night, he cried when he went in, again for about 15 mins and then again about 2am for the same amount of time. Ignored again and he was ok. We woke him when we got up. He had both pooped and weed on his bedding :(.

3rd night, the GSP's woke him when they barked and he howled and whined, ended up waking up my daughter. Sat up with him and played a while, then put him back. Not a happy boy but dropped off after a short while.

Last night, he was crying and howling about midnight, just over an hour after he'd been put in :eek:. Left him a while but he didn't let up, so went down. OMG, there was crap everywhere. All over his bed, on his upturned water bowl, all over his paws, chest, legs ..... and me :mad:!!! He'd even got in on the radiator behind the crate. How can something so little spread it so far :confused:?? Both he and I were 'Miltoned' to within an inch of our lives last night.

So, the problem I have, he doesn't seem to bother that he soils his bedding. If he wets it, he'll happily sleep in it, if he poops on it, he is less keen.

During the day, we are still trying to master doing it on paper, so he doesn't really associate his paper in the cage with the toilet.

So, is this going as you would expect?
Am I doing something wrong?

Help much appreciated :).
 
I know other people who are far more knowledgeable than me will comment on the crate training issue.

My input is about toilet training on newspaper. I have had a fair number of puppies, and I don't think any have been clever enough to understand the difference between paper inside a crate and paper outside a crate - it is all paper to them. My puppies learn that the correct place to go to the loo is outside in the garden, they learn this by being taken outside (a lot) and praised when then go to the loo. I try to make it a game. They all have mistakes, but I have never believed in trying to teach them it is OK to mess on newspaper, I think it confuses them.
 
Hopefully Cayla will be along soon, she is the resident crate expert. A couple of things to be going on with, firstly if you do go down to him try not to have him out and play with him, take him out to do his business and then straight back in the crate. It sounds as if he has too much space in their and that is why he is messing it, is there any way you can section a smaller part of the crate off for him. I agree about the paper, if you are newspaper training he doesn't know it is wrong to use it in the crate. How old is he, you really can't expect a young pup to go through the night without accidents at first I am afraid. Does he spend time in the crate when you are at home or is it just when you leave him, if the latter try putting him in for a short time when you are around, if the crate is in the kitchen pop him in there whilst you are cooking or similar, he should see the crate as his place of choice not a place he is banished to. My GSD at 2 years still has her ginormous crate in the kitchen because it is where she chooses to sleep, in fact the 2 of them take it in turns. Good luck, and it does sound like it is early days so hopefully you will see an improvement soon.
 
Why not try him out of the cage? He most likely needs canine company, he's young and scared. Personally I hate cages, I've bought up many puppies safely, cleanly and happily without resorting to them so if he's that distressed why not try him out of it? Put him in it with the door open and let him decide where he's happier? Just my opinion.
 
Sounds like he needs more toilet breaks during the night than you are currently offering him. Most dogs will avoid soiling where they sleep, but if he is having frequent accidents it just means he needs more opportunities to go to the toilet through the night. When he cries, pick him up, take him outside, give him an opportunity to go to the toilet and then pop him back in his crate. As others have mentioned do not play with him or give him a lot of attention, this is just an opportunity to go to the toilet.

Personally I also don't use paper for toilet training as I think it confuses them. The garden is for toilet, the inside is clean.
 
MurphysMinder said:
A couple of things to be going on with, firstly if you do go down to him try not to have him out and play with him, take him out to do his business and then straight back in the crate. It sounds as if he has too much space in their and that is why he is messing it, is there any way you can section a smaller part of the crate off for him. I agree about the paper, if you are newspaper training he doesn't know it is wrong to use it in the crate. How old is he, you really can't expect a young pup to go through the night without accidents at first I am afraid. Does he spend time in the crate when you are at home or is it just when you leave him, if the latter try putting him in for a short time when you are around, if the crate is in the kitchen pop him in there whilst you are cooking or similar, he should see the crate as his place of choice not a place he is banished to. Good luck, and it does sound like it is early days so hopefully you will see an improvement soon.
Click to expand...

I have to get him out to clean all his mess up, then we have lots of foot biting and leaping round, so even if I don't want to play, Stanley has other ideas :rolleyes:.
He does spend time in the crate when we are around. If he falls asleep on the floor, we pop him in there with the door open. He can come out as he pleases.
Newspaper training - hmm, I can see the point being made by you and others. Maybe I should change and whip him outside frequently. The reason I have avoided this is he is an Italian Greyhound and the weather is wild, I don't want him catching a chill.

jsr said:
Why not try him out of the cage? He most likely needs canine company, he's young and scared. Personally I hate cages, I've bought up many puppies safely, cleanly and happily without resorting to them so if he's that distressed why not try him out of it? Put him in it with the door open and let him decide where he's happier? Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Well, he is a 1Kg Italian Greyhound and my other dogs are 25Kg GSP's, so I am loathe to leave them to bed down together. So, for the moment he has to be kept separate for his own good.

Booboos said:
Sounds like he needs more toilet breaks during the night than you are currently offering him. Most dogs will avoid soiling where they sleep, but if he is having frequent accidents it just means he needs more opportunities to go to the toilet through the night. When he cries, pick him up, take him outside, give him an opportunity to go to the toilet and then pop him back in his crate. As others have mentioned do not play with him or give him a lot of attention, this is just an opportunity to go to the toilet.

Personally I also don't use paper for toilet training as I think it confuses them. The garden is for toilet, the inside is clean.
Click to expand...

Thing is, by the time I've got downstairs, he has already soiled. When wiping it up, it's not warm, so must've been done a while ago.
Last night was the first time it had been spread about, every other time it has been neatly to the side. I don't expect him not to toilet, I'm just surprised he chooses to do it in his bed.
So, are you saying I should put my alarm on to get him up and put him out before he has the opportunity to soil?
 
Take the water out and take the newspaper out.

When i first get pups or dog they are in and out of the crate every hour.

In for 10 minutes. Out and straight into the garden to pee.

Your going for a shower? Pup goes in the crate.
Your vacuuming? Pup goes in the crate
Your going to get milk from the front step? Pup goes in the crate.

In and out all day.

As for at night. I take away the water at least an hour before bed time.
Out to pee the second before going in the crate at night.

Some pups will need a midnight pee break.

Others will sleep until around 6am but you shouldn't really expect him to hold it more than 5 hours or so at night.
 
quirky said:
Well, he is a 1Kg Italian Greyhound and my other dogs are 25Kg GSP's, so I am loathe to leave them to bed down together. So, for the moment he has to be kept separate for his own good.
Click to expand...


But he's still a dog, just cos he's little doesn't mean they'll hurt him anymore than they would hurt a puppy of their breeding or size? I have a pack, mixture of tiny to large and they all cope very well without being locked away separately. The fat girl doesn't sit on the 5kg JRT so I unless your other dogs are aggressive then why do you think they would harm the puppy? I've recently added a very frail and timid whippet puppy to the pack, at no point did I think he would be harmed by the others, infact their interaction and attention has made him thrive (too much actually he's a sod now!) .

As I said only my opinion, I prefer my dogs to have freedom than be caged.
 
agree with katielou

i have whippets and use a crate..ok not so much leaving them in now as they are older..but they go into crates in the car which imo the safest

crate traing a pup can take some time,agree taking the water away

or maybe move the crate near your bedroom where he can still hear you then gradually move further away,so he knows your there

maybe look in the whippet forum or K9 forum as many have IG they may give you some advice
the crate ought to be a sage area for him to go to not for punishment..good luck

i dont agree having dogs in bed at night with you
 
jsr said:
As I said only my opinion, I prefer my dogs to have freedom than be caged.
Click to expand...

Thats your opionion and obviously not that of the OP.
After seeing tiny spindly dogs that have been killed by bigger dogs. Not because they are aggressive but just excited or playing i will disagree with you.
 
katielou_houston said:
Thats your opionion and obviously not that of the OP.
After seeing tiny spindly dogs that have been killed by bigger dogs. Not because they are aggressive but just excited or playing i will disagree with you.
Click to expand...

Must live in a safe old world me then cos I've never seen any tiny spindly dogs killed by playful bigger dogs. :confused: But then again I suppose dogs that are used to interacting naturally as a pack are more controlled and understanding than those shut away.
 
I have a 65kg mastiff x choc doberman and when we got our cocker bitch puppy at 7wks there was no way we would have left them together; he is such a warm, cuddly love-sponge that she just loved to snuggle in to him. He sleeps so deeply and rolls over in his sleep and it was too much of a risk. We started with a Graco baby pen so she was safe when we were doing things around the house or couldn't give her our full attention. I was so worried about her I bought a baby monitor and she cried for 10mins on night one, then never again; what a waste of £20 that was!

She used the paper in the pen, but we were still having accidents around the house, so we decided it was 'outside' only for all business and our job to reinforce this. We used the word 'tiddles' and lots of praise. plus regular, regular visits to the garden. Coupled with this we also bought a puppy cage, which is much smaller than the baby pen. Not one accident since.

She is now 8months and goes to her cage at night; we see a prison-like cage, but the dogs see a comfy, secure cave-like den. I would keep going with the cage and make no fuss of the dog when it goes in or out of it. Do make sure it is small enough though; too much space and their instinct to keep clean doesn't work.
 
jsr said:
Must live in a safe old world me then cos I've never seen any tiny spindly dogs killed by playful bigger dogs. :confused: But then again I suppose dogs that are used to interacting naturally as a pack are more controlled and understanding than those shut away.
Click to expand...

Funny you should say that because actually it was a pack of large dogs at the dog park who were not crated they lived outside who killed a min pin.

And you won't get very far here with that attitude either.
 
Before crates were invented my mum had l/c chis as well as GSDs, they lived happily together but tragically one of the chi bitches was killed. A couple of the shepherds were bombing round the garden and they literally just bowled her over and broke her neck :(. I totally understand why the OP is reluctant to leave her IG with the bigger dogs, hopefully the advice given on here will help solve the crate problem for her.
 
When people stop thinking of, or worse, actually using crates as 'cages' or a device to 'shut dogs away' rather than just another form of bed or kennelling or a safe place for a dog to go which helps with stability and routine for those dogs and owners that need it, then it wouldn't be so divisive.
 
CaveCanem said:
When people stop thinking of, or worse, actually using crates as 'cages' or a device to 'shut dogs away' rather than just another form of bed or kennelling or a safe place for a dog to go which helps with stability and routine for those dogs and owners that need it, then it wouldn't be so divisive.
Click to expand...

Amen to that!
 
tb h this thread only emphasises to me that they are somewhere to shut the dog away... when you go out of the room.
Which is fine, but don't try and sell them as not partially about that. Yes they do keep the dog safe. They would keep children safe too. I am not for crates but can see why this pup could be kept separate from the other dogs using them. I suspect using paper in the crate is part of the issue.
 
The people I know who use crates successfully, their dogs actually go in there of their own accord all the time, they are never 'shut away' because it has been emphasised to them that it is a pleasant place to be, like any other bed or kennel.
I have never, ever, shut or locked my dog in his kennel, the door is always open, because I've never had to. It's comfy, it's safe, it has a roof and a rug in it, he knows it is where he goes to sleep or chill out. A crate is simply an indoor kennel.
This kind of thing has now been harnessed to prevent destructive behaviours, chewing etc, soiling the house, it's not rocket science if done properly. It doesn't work for all dogs but it has helped a lot of them, and their owners.
 
jsr said:
But he's still a dog, just cos he's little doesn't mean they'll hurt him anymore than they would hurt a puppy of their breeding or size? unless your other dogs are aggressive then why do you think they would harm the puppy?
Click to expand...

I don't think my bigger dogs would harm him deliberately but if they were to roll onto him, that'd be enough to do him serious harm, if not kill him.
It's not worth not crating him, it'd be very upsetting for the whole family to have to deal with a squished pup.

Right, I've taken on board the paper and water advice, I shall put that into action and see how we get on :).
 
My pup is currently fast asleep in his crate next to me in the living room. I think they are a wonderful invention - but I totally agree they should not be used as punishment. Dexta didnt like going into his at first, but now he knows he gets nice things in there - his teddy, his dinner, occasionally some treats - so he is more than happy to go in. And he definitely knows that it's where he goes when he's sleepy! :D
 
We will be crate training our pup who arrives in about 3 weeks time.

We didn't crate train our border collie and she got into all sorts of trouble when our back was turned - especially at night
 
If I'd had a crate, I wouldn't have had a £1500 vets bill when we went to stay with my parents and he got into the bin... and more importantly, he wouldn't have needed an operation in the first place.

Vive les crates:cool: The door is never shut now when we're at home, but it means I can keep him safe wherever we go, and it gives him his own little nook. It's certainly the first place he takes a bone or his kong to, so he can't feel too hard done by:rolleyes:
 
Only going to add when H was 8 week old he went out twice a night (once a wee, once for a poop), he reduced that himself to once a night at 9 weeks, and then went all night at 10 weeks.

Only other thought have you given him a heat pad or hot water bottle? Something warm to snuggle up to might help settle him.
 
Not only did Evie love her crate, but Buffy chose to share it with her. Don't think they see it as a place of punishment.:p


IMG_0746.jpg
 
We must have been SO lucky. Our MS pup at 7 weeks went to bed in her quite small crate the first night, no accidents then out for a wee at 6 am. It is hard work. We seem to live in the kitchen and are constantly watching her. She goes out when she wakes, when shes played, when shes eaten and every hour. She is now 16 weeks and we still live in the kitchen, but she does now ask to go out and we have only had about 5 wees in the house and those were our fault for not watching her. This weekend she moved into a big crate so a lot more room for her and she is still good. She likes her crate it is her bedroom but if we venture into the lounge we just shut the door and she is fine. When she is tired she will wander in there herself and crash out. I think they are great but like everything else if used correctly.
 
another suggestion if not doing already
cover the crate with a sheet/blanket so it looks like a den

heat pads,water bottles can help aswell

also another reason for crateing,if they are used to it they wont be distress if ever needed to stay at the vets..

its for saftey aswell as comfort
 
Crates when used correctly are a god sent, and they have saved many a dogs life, including the many thousands in rescue, we use them and we crate train every single rescue we get in (a lot) why? because we are dealing with a lot of dogs of different ages, sizes, breeds? and a huge percentage of dogs are handed in, for believe it or not SEPERATION ANXIETY, destruction, barking and using the home as a toilet, instead of putting in an exerxcise routine and crate routine, they would rather see them slide into a yellow bag.

I have to say I also have a pack of dogs, the only one crated, (the puppy) I would never leave her unsupervised with a mature deerhound or a 50kg akita, she is a puppy with energy and if she got a snack from one of those for there need to be left alone and hers to play or seek attention, she would be disfigured for life (or could) should I say, its not about knowing what your dog will or won't do, it's about knowing "the capability" of the dog in an unsupervised situation.
I have seen and dealt with many a dog death and it suprises me still that people leave defencless small puppies with bigger adult dogs 1, becauser the adult deserves peace if is so wishes 2, there is room for injury/fatality
We have had dogs in here work/vets with some horrendous wounds, broken bones, and dead, we once had a decapitated puppy in (older dog took it's head clean off) im thinking they where wanting us to re attach (bit late for that):rolleyes:
Someone I knew once also had 3 dogs, they had always lived together, and believe it or not it was the 12 month old pup and 5 year old adult dogs that ripped the 3 year old X breed to shreds, (it was a blood bath) the 2 dogs where covered in the others blood it was gasping for it's last when the owner arrived home and I was the one upon her request to take the 2 dogs to be put to sleep (it was heartbreaking), the owner was traumatised and is to this day. (who knows? was it a play fight gone wrong)?
I have also seen (esp with lurchers/whippets) seen alot of broken limbs, due to accidents occuring whilst they where left alone with no crate, and dogs with holes through their tongue from electricution, and one with a broken neck from jumping off a chest freezer onto a tiled floor, also puppies hung from kitchen cabinets by their collars.

More interestingly I also know of a dog thats was attacked whilst having an epileptic fit (it's natural for dogs to attack when one is acting irratic, and vocalising pain) the dogs was killed.
So there are many sceanrios where things can go wrong in an unsupervised situation.

Anyway back on topic, the crate helps to create a routine whereby you can toilet train your puppy, prevent seperation anxiety, keep the puppy safe when unsupervised, create a travel routine using the same crate, give a mature dog time out, and belive it or not it helps your dogs stress levels no end when staying in a vets over night if it's already been trained to a crate and when your puppy/dogs goes to stay in anew environment for any reason, i.e holidays, as the environment changes but their little den/crate remain the same.

Back on track, to the OP, I would advise you carry on as you are, it sounds pretty normal, but a few pointers, have a last meal cut of time? my current rescue have their last meal at 6pm and they hold till 9.am even then they dont make a peep, its just me getting up to let them out.
Make the meal the lightest of the day, have the puppy spend time int he crate during the day as Katie Suggests, an hour out and an hour in, in the beginning this is the basis of the routine, whislt out tire the puppy with playtime, then crate for a stupulated period to encourage rest and time spent in crate drained of energy, use a thisk blanket for covering the crate, always throw a treat in (I use chicken breast) everytime I call the little rescue terrorists:D they now know and rush in there, then blanket goes over and its quiet time.
If im going out then they get a pigs ear/stuffed kong with dry food and sardines.
The crate should be as small as you can get it and I would advise a plastic bed that covers the surface of the crate, it will catch any pooper and its easy to clean and encourages them to stay cleaner/hold (in the beginning) when anxious they will pass, but it will stop, and as suggested I would place puppy out clean crate and place pup straight back in and cover crate.
Use and old blanket and cut it up, so you can chuck it our as its wrecked:D
Try a DAP diffuser near the crate also, and dont forget teddy bear and a heat pad may help as suggested (esp for the breed):rolleyes::D get both in washable form:D

You can try the 2 crate routine, 1 in bedroom and 1 downstairs for now, this means when pup stirs u will hear the difference between stressy/need a wee or just oving around and can place it out quicker and when you move pup downstairs it will be holding longer and wont know the difference between crates esp if you use cover for both crates.

During the day if you are having problems toilet training (smaller breeds generally take longer to train) always keep the puppy in the same room, you cannot correct a mistake (I.e take puppy to garden when you see the signs of needs to pass) if they are not in the smae room or wondering in the house.
Puppy pads or newspaper can be good as a guide, as in a puppy will generally make their way towards it, so placing it at the door of exit, gives a guide for the puppy and a cue "Im heading for the pad/paper mammy":D you then release the puppy to designated toilet before it does business on the pad/paper.
The idea is for them not to pass on them but to use them as a guide.


I have a puppy guide, if you have not already got one, send me an e.mail addy and I will send one to ya.:)
 
katielou_houston said:
Funny you should say that because actually it was a pack of large dogs at the dog park who were not crated they lived outside who killed a min pin.

And you won't get very far here with that attitude either.
Click to expand...

Ahhh Oh so it was dogs 'supervised' by humans that were allowed to kill a dog then? Nothing to do with a dog in it's home being squashed while it slept with it's pack members? That makes shoving my dogs in a cage even more sensible?? :rolleyes:

And won't get very far where exactly?? :confused:

Obviously I'm a very bad owner and very lucky that my many dogs over the last 40 odd years have never squashed/eaten/ripped apart/sat on/shat on/played to death or mauled the teeny tiny precious ickle poopies. FFS they are DOGS they have lived for many many years without being locked away in cages. Go to the zoo if you want to see an animal locked away. Bloody fashion and human convience has ALOT to answer to.

We can all sprout stories of dogs injured. HEY OMG a dog I once knew got run over by a car....STOP TAKING YOUR DOGS FOR WALKS THEY MIGHT GET RUN OVER!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

End of subject as far as I'm concerned cos quiet frankly anyone moronic enough to believe all the drivel isn't worth the effort.
 
Not sure if it is worth the effort of a reply, but can I just say it really peeves me when older people use the line "I have had dogs for x years " as a reason to not consider change. Imho we can never stop learning, using those dread words, I have lived with dogs for over 50 years and so many things have changed for the better over those times. Years ago we didn't use crates for pups, and apart from the house training issues, they are so much safer when left crated, no more worries about chewing electric wires, or getting underfoot when you are cooking etc.
Just wanted to point out that not all us "oldies" have such entrenched views.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top