Cremello TB Electrum

[magic104]

Pg 10 H&H - Interesting to see how well he does & how many join him in the register

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10491348

 

[Truly]

There are less than 20 cremello TB's in the World at the moment..Electrum in the UK, two in Germany and the rest in Canada and the US.
They are registered (apart from Electrum) incorrectly as another colour and will have to apply to their own countries jockey club stud books to have their colours corrected.
The USJC don't seem to be as helpful as Weatherby's and the cremello TB owners over there having a hard time getting the USJC to admit the the International Stud Book Committee approved the colour...as last I was told.

We are hoping Electrum does well

he is only a yearling so it is early days but he ticks all the boxes so far

It will be hard for some to accept his colour as us English have always had some prejudice against cremellos..including myself to be honest!
But a good horse is never a bad colour so they say and I experienced this at his first yearling sporthorse class at Herts County this year..the judge pulled him in 6th intially and after he did the triangle she placed him 2nd and she told me when he entered the ring she didn't like his colour but when he stood in front of her she really liked him

There will definitely be some prejudice in showing with some judges but hopefully when he is older and in ridden competitions he will be able to prove himself.
Also as the UK is understanding colour genetics more nowadays and cremellos, palominos and buckskins are being bred purposely into the sporthorse/TB breeds the quality is improving all the time and hopefully the old way of thinking will change

 

[Penniless]

As breeders ourselves (and breed mainly for racing) wouldn't you be best getting your boy into a racing yard and racing him for a spell? Surely that would be the only way TB racing breeders would accept his colour. Unless he proved himself on a racetrack, I really can't see many TB people accepting him as a sire for racing.

(We're not anti-coloured racehorses - we've got a registered chesnut mare - who looks as if she's had a white paint pot splattered all over her. When we took her off to stud, the stud grooms stood with their mouths open at her colouring. Our stud vet was so keen to see her first foal when it was born this year to see if that came out coloured. It was in fact a chesnut filly but she does have white flecks all over her).

Wish you good luck with your boy though and if you do decide to race him, be sure to let us know.

 

[magic104]

I think it interesting because TB's if graded into the stud books are permitted to use on WB's & still be registered into the relevant stud book. I am sure I read that the BWB dont accept Cremello as a colour (No Albino’s or Cremello’s are eligible for entry). Now I feel this is wrong, especially as there are classes for Palomino's and the best way to breed a Pally is to put a chestnut to a Cremello. So surely this rule is going to have to be amended especially if a Cremello TB passes his grading.

On this particular TB, does Electrum have enough proven TB breeding for racing? I could be wrong but nothing stands out in the 1st few generations as having proved themselves on the racetrack. As he is US bred I am probably wrong in that assumption. I for one am interested so see how well he does in what ever career he takes on. Best of luck & another option for anyone wanting to breed a palomino.

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it interesting because TB's if graded into the stud books are permitted to use on WB's & still be registered into the relevant stud book. I am sure I read that the BWB dont accept Cremello as a colour (No Albino’s or Cremello’s are eligible for entry). Now I feel this is wrong, especially as there are classes for Palomino's and the best way to breed a Pally is to put a chestnut to a Cremello. So surely this rule is going to have to be amended especially if a Cremello TB passes his grading.

On this particular TB, does Electrum have enough proven TB breeding for racing? I could be wrong but nothing stands out in the 1st few generations as having proved themselves on the racetrack. As he is US bred I am probably wrong in that assumption. I for one am interested so see how well he does in what ever career he takes on. Best of luck & another option for anyone wanting to breed a palomino.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slightly off topic, but it constantly irritates me

Why is it that the world constantly ignores the BUCKSKIN horse, it is after all, created with the same gene as the palomino.

As you have quite rightly said magic104 there are classes for Palominos, but I have NEVER seen a class for the BUCKSKIN horse

I also don't understand why Cremello's are not accepted into certain studbooks, after all it is only a colour, nothing to do with a breed standard surely.

OK rant over

 

[Enfys]

Being a pedigree junkie I always look up lines, all the palomino and cremello tb's I have come across go back to the stallion Milkie. But where did he come from?! According to Allbreeds (not always correct, I know) the dam and sire of Milkie were regulation dark tb's. (As were the sire and dam of the buckskin Lucky Two Bits)


Personally, I go along with the old 'A good horse..' adage.

Cruiseline, I agree with you about the Buckskins. I used to be on a Show Committee and every year we had the same argument, Coloured classes? Being small, we had to go for the money spinning classes, but I always wanted duns/buckskins included, but always got shot down. It seemed very unfair, and every year I had owners saying "But what about US?"

 

[magic104]

At local level anyway a Buckskin would be shown in the "Odd coloured" cat which includes Palominio's, Cremello's, Dun's etc. I dont think there is anything wrong with have a colour preference, no different to having a breed preference IMO. My 1st horse was a few spot & TBH he put me off anything light in colour because of the work involved in getting him clean for shows. Every grass, every poo stain showed up!! I would never dismiss a horse because he was light coloured, but it just would not be a preference. I love the golden Palomino's, to me that is an attractive colour, but I would not go for one just because I liked the colour. I love black, but again for a stallion he would have to have more to offer then that. As for the Cremello colour it could be something to do with genetics, isn't there a condition that a lot of blue eyed Dalmations have that causes them deafness?? I dont know enough about colour genetics so I am just wondering as surely there must be a reason for it. So perhaps someone with some experience on this can help.

 

[magic104]

Milkie's dam (Tootsie T) is recorded as being a buckskin her sire Chestnut & her dam Brown. Deer Lodge the sire recorded Bay with both sire & dam being Bay. Again we need a genetic expert to comment.
http://www.rtm-anglo-arabs.com/Milkie.html

 

[volatis]

The 'bays' may well have been dark or sooty buckskins. Seeing as the US JC would not have recorded the colour buckskin anyway, just looking at historical data actually tells you very little. They could have been green with pink spots and I bet they would still be registered as bay!

 

[Truly]

Hi Penniless,
I am considering him sending him racing but as you know it's hard enough with one that has the best racing lines close up to be successful on the race course.
If I did send him racing it would be as an older horse on the flat possibly after he has evented.
I am seriously considering sending my palomino colt foal racing but not as a 2yo..he is out of a winning race mare..I plan to cover her with Electrum next year too.
But I think the best way to get racing folks interested would be to get his stock out racing rather than himself...lots to think about as they are both just babies still

Cool about your mares colouring

..the Americans love that colouring!..it's the sabino (a white gene) gene..it can hide and when both sire and dam carry it , it can express itself wildly and the foals can be born all white (maximum sabino)..there are several in the US, France and Australia that have been successful race horses

Electrums dam sire is a maximum sabino called 'Bright White' and his sire was called 'Puchilingui'

Check this link for some amazing colours and click on the links at the bottom for others http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Cool_and_Unusual_Thoroughbreds.html

Hi Cruiseline , you made me laugh because at my riding clubs local show in September they had a coloured class with no buckskins..but my rant was that a Haflinger was entered because they thought it was palomino and evidently has palomino on it's passport..I explained it was genetically impossible as it was a light chestnut with a flaxen mane! Once you start to understand genetics little things like that really make you mad lol..Love your boy btw

Hi magic104,
I don't think many registries or stud books understand colour genetics and you'd hope with newer blood running them they will eventually arrive in the 21st century and realise that cremellos share the same colour gene as palominos and buckskins and therefore should be allowed in..it's ridiculous really as you couldn't say a horse is the wrong shade of chestnut so we won't let it in our stud book lol

Hi Enfys,
There are two known lines..one is the 'Milkie' line and the other is the 'Glitter Please' line..Electrum sire is from the Glitter Please line and his dam from the Milkie line.
There are lots of theories of where the cream gene came from and some say from other breeds before DNA testing was about and some say hidden from horses for generations turning grey or very dark buckskins that appear bay...who knows for sure?
Any horses pedigree can be queried because it has only been since they introduced DNA testing for parentage that we can be absolutely sure.
Only a couple of years ago there was a major mix up with two stallions..I think I remember correctly two stallions in Ireland were exported to Australia and Turkey..they only realised they had the wrong horses when the Australian vet checked the DNA! Imagine the mix ups before DNA!

Dalmations and white cats that are deaf have nothing to do with cremellos..totally different genes..same as some chestnut horses have blue eyes..if a different gene to cremello.
Cremellos still have colour pigmentation, it's just doubly diluted..they don't sunburn as some believe..it's white areas that have no pigmentation that sunburn and only if a cremello has a very wide blase that is hardly visable will it sunburn..same as a chestnut with a white blase will get sunburn.
Electrum does have a blase but a fairly narrow one..you can't really see it unless he is wet..same as a grey horse when wet shows up it's white socks and blase if it has them

There is also no such thing as albino in horses.

I only researched colour genetics about 4 years ago and I've found it fascinating and totally addictive

 

[magic104]

"Dalmations and white cats that are deaf have nothing to do with cremellos..totally different genes.."

I only mentioned the Dalmation bit, because I am at a loss to understand why a colour would be barred. I understand CB's are bay & Suffolks are chestnut, but that is one colour in different shades. Most other breeds come in all sort of colours, so therefore why shouldn't something like a Cremello crop up & if so the reasoning behind not recognising it. I dont understand the logic, but perhaps it is just an outdated rule that needs changing.

 

[KarynK]

I have attempted to have this out with several breed societies that fail to recognise the cream gene. They fail to realise that one copy of this gene produces Palomino, golden buckskins, dark buckskins and black buckskins, though in the latter two colours it is VERY hard to tell if they have the gene (A simple genetic test can help here). They also fail to recognise that they are NOT duns! So if a horse inherits two of these genes the coat and pigment including that in the eye is double diluted and you get the “Blue eyed creams”. The TB industry are coming round and the AQHA also recognise double dilutes.

Basically a breed would need to have cream in it in order to recognise it so something like Cleveland’s and Suffolk’s would not recognise it as it has not been part of the breed, but something like Iberians and even Lipizzaner could well have it hidden under grey and therefore when it does pop up then they need to recognise it! Or like in the new forests it clearly hides to the untrained eye behind dark coat colours.

My question is how the hell can you recognise a horse of a breed that is buckskin or palomino then say that because a horse has two copies of one colour gene it is not eligible to be registered? Or in the example below accept a buckskin call it a dun then deny registry to a palomino who is only different because it is a chestnut underneath! Once you accept you have single dilutes in a breed surely you cannot legally disbar doubles of that same gene, especially now we have a genetic test for it!


A good example of colour inheritance problems such as these are found in the New Forest Pony, who introduced a cull of chestnut stallions with light mains and tails (i.e. they have the flaxen gene) thinking them responsible for “Blue eyed creams”. They refuse to register palominos and double dilutes and continue to be surprised when they get a double dilute foal from two “DUN” parents! Hello all those Dun stallions running on the forest are BUCKSKINS! I haven’t actually seen a true dun out there and I’ve been using the forest for a very long time! There is also the problem that all double dilutes tend to be referred to as Cremello, then people are surprised when they get a buckskin and their cremello turns out to be a perlino or smoky cream!!!

Personally and no offence to anyone I think that this gene in the modern TB and also paint (but not sabino) genes are results of pre DNA outcrosses, yes cream can hide behind a dark coat but not for the amount of time suggested (two hundred years) and the lack of this colour in English TB’s and at the higher levels of racing, makes me very suspicious. However they are now verified and who knows, but in an industry where performance rules with their small numbers it will be some time before we get a palomino Derby winner!!!

The deafness in Dalmatians’ and some other species is associated with white, and it is also associated with the splashed white paint pattern in horses, some geneticists believe they are all deaf. There is also the lethal white gene associated with frame overos, where the foal is born with an incorrectly developed gut and all with 2 copies of the gene will die. There are some, who say that there is a dominant white gene in horses, but personally I need more convincing and the examples I have seen so far have other more feasible explanations.

Re the “coloured” Tb mare above, it’s a typical sabino crop out and that is why I don’t include in outcrosses above, it is a natural product of minimal sabino markings seen in most breeds, sabino is a bit different to most colour genes in that it is heavily dependant on positive and negative white modifying genes carried by a horse as to how much or even if it expresses, though until recent times in the TB you saw only white leg makings and a blaze or the extreme all white sabino white crop out. I put this down to an age old aversion in the UK to white leg markings in the belief that white hooves are weaker in the horse, remember the rhyme If you have a horse with four white legs, keep it not a day etc? Now we see more white on the modern TB and it is only time before a top class horse with a large belly splash appears on the flat. But in the example above it appears that the foal only inherited sabino ticking, though if it is storing white modifiers from it’s mother it could produce a crop out foal itself in the future.

 

[magic104]

Personally and no offence to anyone I think that this gene in the modern TB and also paint (but not sabino) genes are results of pre DNA outcrosses, yes cream can hide behind a dark coat but not for the amount of time suggested (two hundred years) and the lack of this colour in English TB’s and at the higher levels of racing, makes me very suspicious.

I think the above comments are the crux of the matter here, because these colours so far have only appeared in the US (& I think Canada). If I am wrong someone is bound to point it out. Surely we would have recorded instances here in the UK, Ireland, France or anywhere that has been in TB breeding. Are we to believe that any odd coloured TB's have been culled? Or made to disappear perhaps. Just how many generations do you have to go before a TB is a TB & not an NTR register?

 

[sallyf]

8 pure crosses

 

[TarrSteps]

There are, for some reason, quite a few TB breeders specialising in coloured horses in Canada, most notably True Colours Farm, linked above. I remember Donna did send one into training but I don't think it raced, although I believe she purchased a mare (or perhaps the offspring of a mare) that raced in Australia. Donna's stallion, Guaranteed Gold, got his performance testing in eventing. One of her foundation mares is Puchi Trap, obviously a daughter of the horse pictured above. She's now experimenting with using her coloured TBs with sport horses as well.

On the note about DNA testing, I think the best story is a AQHA sire called Bett Ohio. I don't know how much everyone knows about AQHA papers but Appendix horses (one reg AQHA parent, one JC reg TB parent) can compete with "full" QHs and, if they earn enough points, be accepted as "full" QHs. That horse can then be put to a TB, the offspring reg as Appendix and so it goes. Bett Ohio was supposed to be Appendix, out of a TB mare, showed, did well, got his AQHA papers, went to the breeding shed, had offspring that did well in AQHA competition . . . and then, with the advent of DNA testing, turned out to have not a drop of QH blood in him! He was, in fact, by a TB sire that had stood at the same farm as his supposed AQHA sire. Oops. It caused a bit of a mess.

It must have happened now and then. I knew one notoriously "shy" stallion (bought cheaply from Germany after a very good performance test, he was so difficult to breed) who produced offspring who either looked distinctly like him . . . or distinctly like the other, "lesser known" stallion that stood at the same place. Hmm.

Heck, I understand there's a persistent rumour about Man O' War.

These days though, there shouldn't be an issue, since testing a horse should provide definitive DNA information. It seems at least some of the "rules" of horse breeding still date from times when the potential for genes to express themselves in different ways was at the very least imperfectly understood. But you know how horsemen love tradition . . .

 

[flyingcolors]

I do have several dilute TBs in Germany and there have always been Palominos and buckskins before in the TB breeding as the colour came from the Achal Tekke (Turk) lines in the British TB breeding. The fact is that for centuries all the Palominos have been registered as light chestnut, golden chestnut, flaxen chestnut or just plain chestnut. the buckskins have been registered as light bay or golden bay or if the gene was hidden under dark bay or black and only color testing would have helped but that exists just shortly.

For sure there have been some in UK and France also white ones in Germany. One mare named Woher was definitely an all white Sabino in Germany, the stallion Sylfou xx in France was definitely a Palomino and went on to the Hungarian states stud where he produced the whole line of buckskins and palominos in Hungarian WB breeding. Then there was the breeding of the count Kinsky of his chestnut TB mare Themby to a BAY stallion and the outcome was a Palomino. He was punished for having bred to the wrong stallion which he didn't so he created the studbook of the Kinsky's. The TB stallion must in fact have been a buckskin. Then there is the German TB stallion Marlon xx that was standing in Holstein. Now one has to know that the Holsteiners do not have chestnuts or very very few as they are all dark colored there. This Marlon was often used but has only just twice been bred to the same chestnut mare by Hetman, her name was Diane and she twice produced a Palomino. That is only possible if Marlon was in fact a very dark buckskin.

I have plenty of links to Palomino TBs that have been noted as chestnuts. If you care I am happy to post links.

 

[magic104]

I have plenty of links to Palomino TBs that have been noted as chestnuts. If you care I am happy to post links. - Go for it I will start with this one
http://www.norsirefarms.com/

 

[KarynK]

I am sorry to disagree but in the 19th and 20th century there were no palomino or golden buckskin thoroughbreds racing at higher levels of the breed in Britain. In fact Tesio did an extensive study on coat colours in TB’s in his book Breeding the Racehorse that examined coat colour vs performance at the highest levels of racing. That man was no one’s fool to put it very mildly and he would have no hesitation in differentiating a chestnut from a palomino, and there is no mistaking a golden buckskin or double dilutes but where are they?

I would be happy to receive a picture that refutes this but since even the flaxen gene is rare in high level pure TB performers along with pale chestnuts at higher levels in the UK and I am talking group race winners I cannot see that someone would not have reported a Palomino or Golden Buckskin just for it’s newsworthyness. Trainers and breeders were all horsemen and women of some repute and would know the difference!


There were indeed suspicions of impurity on the part of some American lines rightly or wrongly in the early 19th century, so much so that the Jersey Act 1913 was passed requiring horses’ pedigrees to trace “without flaw” to horses listed in previous volumes of the GSB.

I guess we will have to wait a few years until Y STR and Mitochondrial DNA techniques become cheaper, then it will be very easy to establish where the colours come from.

There have always been the odd sabino white in the breed and they crop out every now and again but are not generally top class performers and since they do not always throw themselves the colour calms back down to normal markings.

Re the 8 Generation thing, ironically enough that is not allowed in the USA now, if it isn’t a TB it can never become one unless it comes from the UK!!!!!

 

[flyingcolors]

KarynK

I am sorry but you are mistaken and we are NOT discussing if racing or not racing, we are discussing if the color existed in the TBs and the cream gene always did due to the influence of the Achal Tekke. Darcys Yellow Turk was definitely a cream carrier that was used in the TB breeding. Since mainly dark colors were bred in the early years the gene could hide for long and only now and then with a chestnut it can be visible and only then at 50%. And as I said they were named light chestnuts only since a few years, since I imported two Palomino - chestnuts in their US papers - TBs from USA the German JC has made the Palomino as color available to the TB breeders by fighting for the existence and correct description.

For a first link look at this:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sylfou
it is the French TB stallion Sylfou, registered as CHESTNUT in France, sold to the Hungarian states stud and there producing 50% of dilute foals of Palomino and Buckskin colors! And do not tell me that someone has bred a QH into the French TB gene pool in 1958 when this stallion was conceived!

More links will follow once I have found my files.

And Sabino is not a crop out either, it is a gene that exists since long in the TB breeds but since it can hide or express immediately people think it is a mysterious.

Only since very few years people understand about color genetics and the horse associations are the least to understand anything and write up totally wrong colors in the papers of the horses and then people do not understand how some colors can "pop up". It is due to the Associations making mistakes on the papers and still most people do know nothing about color genetics.

I have studied color genetics since 30 years and was the first to say that all markings are indeed Sabino pattern. Now ten years later they say that this is true but nobody wanted to believe it when I said that 10 years earlier.

Its the same with Palomino. There is a book from 1945 that has pink skinned Palominos in it, today we know that this is the champagne gene and recently the gene has been found and can now been proven.

And only since the internet exists and people more and more like colored horses, these TBs got exposure and were bred for color more and more so there are now more varieties and more known horses with their correct color.

 

[TarrSteps]

On the "crop out" colour subject, surely this would be similar to the situation that led to the "white rule" in AQHA horses?

Traditionally the expression of "high whites", belly splashes and similar white markings was taken to indicate the presence of "outside blood" and up until a decade or so ago QHs marked this way were not eligible for registry, even if both parents were registered. The rise of DNA testing put paid to the idea that these horses were not what they said on the tin and they are now registered without prejudice. (Which has cause problems with the Paints but that's another story . . )

 

[seabiscuit]

Have no idea re; the genetics but just wanted to say that there are quite a few odd coloured racebred TBs about these days.

I've seen a few racehorses with white faces, completly white legs ( up to the elbow) blue eyes and a few with white patches on the stomach. They could almost be piebald/skewbald??

This seems particularly common in horses by Accordion

 

[magic104]

As I said before interesting, even more so as for humans it is against the law to be colour prejudiced. If these colours are permitted then some rule books will need to be updated. I dont see why an animal should be outcast because of its colour if it comes from registered parents of the same breed. Therefore if both parents are registered TB then regardless if the offspring is orange with yellow spots, it is a TB.

 

[flyingcolors]

Here are some links, within the reading you have several links, Crab f.e. is clearly a Palomino. And after reading all this, do not tell me all have sires that jumped the fence or came from USA as there were none at that time. In fact the British have sent the dilution to the USA.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/spanker+mare

http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Silverlocks.htm

Clearly a buckskin and listed as one:
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Brilliant.htm

and more...
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Jupiter.htm
Read what it says about his coat...

Another Palomino...descended from Silverlocks mentioned in this thread...
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/Precipitate.htm

and...
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Bios/OxfordDunArabian.htm

http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/FoundationSires/FoundSiresC.html#OldCrab

 

[TarrSteps]

Very interesting.

I've always wondered about perhaps the most famously rendered TB, Whistlejacket and his colouring. Obviously sorrel at least in expression but interesting to see he's relatively closely related to Jupiter, above.

 

[KarynK]

Sabino white the maximal form of this gene IS a crop out, it appears from nowhere because of white modifiers and can appear from very conservatively marked individuals. How else do you define a crop out??????

Sabino is thought to be the source of all white spotting patterns in the horse, but it is yet to be known at what point it mutates into something like splashed white, Overo or Tobiano. Like I said English TB lines of old were conservatively marked and had either that or the full blown Sabino white, but Sabino is unstable and will not consistently throw itself because of the white modifiers. Now we see more white markings and in that increase something is happening that is allowing body patches, Pancake is a very good example of this.

I am not surprised by crop outs in the Quarter Horse and American breeds have never been scrutinised for their white markings, in a country like that with the horse as a scarce resource you could hardly be fussy could you? It is here where we see markings like splash white and overo that are rarely seen in European breeds. AQHA horses come from a gene pool that included all colours, and a lot of white and when they get a belly splash or an all white individual they quite rightly call it a crop out! NB white on the upper legs and body of AQHA is undesirable and marked as such on their registration certificates.

The reason I use racing TB’s for examples is because they are PURLEY bred for performance and therefore less likely to be bred just to produce a colour, what is the point when you want something to win and win big if it isn’t a proven line then there is no point in using it.

Of the top 14 families identified by Bruce Low to form his tail female lines none have produced a high performing racing dilute and these top families are the group racing performance families. This was what the TB was bred to do and there are no dilutes!

Yes dilutes may well have existed in the early TB but they died out in racing performance lines quite early on and those listed above are not all proven to be dilutes and most stem from the early days of the breed. Then there is a huge gap of about 200 years where no dilutes are seen in England and Ireland the source of the GSB, until they start appearing again in the 20th Century, but very interestingly not in the country that the breed was perpetuated in! They do not appear in Europe or North America until some obscure lines pop up in the 20th century. BTW is not only Quarter Horses that are the source for the dilute gene!

Yes Cream could hide behind black but that is a farily rare TB colour, but in browns you will see the tale tale tan parts turning yellow and I do not see that in any photos of TB's doing what they were bred to do race? Cream is dominant and as not all dark TB's are brown they are Bay again I ask where are the Golden Buckskins? Chestnut is prevalent in the breed yet flaxen is rare and most English Chestnut TB's are a dark cherry red - and that is the very colour you need to produce the golden coin palomino, where are they?

There are hundreds of paintings and photos of racing TB's in the intervening years and none give a hint of a cream gene.

Still with the advances in DNA the answer is just around the corner.

NB All breeds is not a reliable source for colours or indeed the correct ancestors and should not be relied upon for research purposes.

 

[flyingcolors]

It is not allbreed that was used for the pedigree of Sylfou it is pedigreequery and since I have offspring of Sylfou and traced it down I can testify it IS indeed a Palomino color he had!

 

[firm]

I dont know about historical dilutes in TBS - I have never looked into it but the one thing I picked up on those links is the statement about Oxford Dun Arabian where it say "The General Stud Book of those days, without a word to describe buckskins, called them "duns". That was back in 1710. The word dun in UK is very common and in old English, Irish & Gaelic it means fort/hill but it also means brown, dark, drab , colour of black & brown and it can refer to swarthy in relation to men. So the Oxford Arabian may have been brown, bay or maybe he was called dun referring to where he came from or the people he came from. Like wise any other dun, duinn, doin horses from that period. I have an interest in old words & things

 

[Penniless]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Penniless,
I am considering him sending him racing but as you know it's hard enough with one that has the best racing lines close up to be successful on the race course.
If I did send him racing it would be as an older horse on the flat possibly after he has evented.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately if you intend to event him, he will be too old to then run on the flat. As you know, most flat racehorses start their racing careers at 2 or 3 years old and have generally retired by about the age of 5 or 6 (albeit a lot more are running at an elderly age nowadays - a friend has her 10 year old still racing in sprints and still winning and will continue to run as an 11 year old, but these are the exception and I've never personally known a TB go eventing and then go into racing unless it's to go hurdling or chasing.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I am seriously considering sending my palomino colt foal racing but not as a 2yo..he is out of a winning race mare..I plan to cover her with Electrum next year too.
But I think the best way to get racing folks interested would be to get his stock out racing rather than himself...lots to think about as they are both just babies still

[/ QUOTE ]
Is the palomino a TB or NTR? You would still be better off promoting him as able to do the job, rather than waiting ???? years to see what his progeny do.

[ QUOTE ]
Cool about your mares colouring

..the Americans love that colouring!..it's the sabino (a white gene) gene..it can hide and when both sire and dam carry it , it can express itself wildly and the foals can be born all white (maximum sabino)..there are several in the US, France and Australia that have been successful race horses

Electrums dam sire is a maximum sabino called 'Bright White' and his sire was called 'Puchilingui'

[/ QUOTE ]
We know absolutely nothing about colour genetics and it's certainly a minefield judging by all the responses to your thread. It's not surprising though when you say Americans love the sort of colouring our TB mare is, because although she was bred in Ireland, she is American bred on both sire and dams sides so obviously it comes from there.

Good luck with your boys though.

 

[flyingcolors]

@ Penniless,

would you mind sending a picture of your colorful mare, being into horse color genetics since more than 30 years I would love to see her.

 

[firm]

I have been off looking up some of my older books and hope it is of interest

re TB colours. There are lots of sabino type horses - two mentioned are Blair Atholl ( " disfigured by a white blaze across his face") winner of Derby & St Leger 1864 & Orlando with his high whites winner of Derby 1844.

There does not seem to be a colour prejudice except against greys. Here are some interesting quotes from about 1870 which I think FC will love
" Roans came into notice in 1863 when Rapid Rhone ..... he was of the Physalis blood... amongst which was also a roan horse Beauvale"
" in a visit to Lord Glasgow's stud farm in 1865 I saw a yearling filly, in colour a beautiful yellow dun but as she never ran she was probably converted, like many other foals on the same farm, into cats meat; for such was the custom of a peer as eccentric as ever described in a French romance"
Lord G allegedly sold few horses & it was difficult to use his stallions & he shot anything not up to scratch so maybe why his dilutes would have died out.

" No thorough-bred piebald has ever appeared in public in the present century; but in a letter to the Editor from the Duke of Beaufort, his Grace mentions that a Physalis mare once bred him piebald twins!"
"Many tb horses have grey hairs thinly distributed over a dark coat, a variation not objected to ; but the prejudice against greys is very strong in training stables."
" The roan tb sires have been chiefly employed in covering half-bred mares"

Fascinating reading also talks about the Hanoverian cremellos (pic shows they are cremellos where are they now?) , buying a well tempered cob for carrying 17 stone & paying £400, people still want to pay that over 100 years later

and moans about German horses being soft, unsound, unable to move

but can be imported at 25% less than an equivalent English gelding

- ohh how things have changed