Cremello x Chestnut = Colour query

only reason you could get a dun is because the mare is perlino as opie said, my friend has a "cremello" stallion, which threw a dun proving he was perlino, but alas he also threw grey, proving he is actually a grey with 2 dilute genes, because he is so pale to start with you could not tell he had greyed out
 
yes thats right buckskin, not dun but its hard to tell the difference, and most people would think it was dun, palomino to palomino, could produce a palomino if one parent threw a cream gene and one a chestnut gene, but equally you could get a cream or in fact a chestnut
 
the connamara society actually recognize cremellos now, so your mare is eligable for the studbook
 
Chestnut is so rare in Connemaras that I would put plenty of money on your mare being perlino.
Do you feel her eyesight is linked to her colour? I have a cremello and a perlino and neither have anything wrong with their eyesight - they do have blue eyes and so wear fly masks in very bright sunlight as they are more sensitive, but their sight is fine.

A friend of mine has a cream Connemara who also carries grey. You cant tell by looking at her clearly, but her first foal (a smokey black) greyed out. Strong chance your mare carries grey, you just cant see it with the cream.
 
The confusion arises as we in this country think that Buckskin is an Americanism for dun and it's not! The dun is a completely separate dilute gene available in homozygous form without the crème effect. (unless of course it’s a cross a so called dunskin or dunmino)!!!
Ask the New Forest Pony Society as they didn’t realise until presto pseudo albino's on the forest (taken last week)

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This despite them having banned pale chestnut stallions (who they think are responsible!) and Palominos who are in their opinion highly responsible for "Blue eyed Creams" as everything else is dun! (I have never seen a dun on the Forest!). So now they have a load of buckskins, dark buckskins and black buckskins who are all capable of producing "creams", but "DUNS" sold really well last year!!!!! Poor old palominos who have the same gene are banned from the breed altogether and if a nice colt is born pale chestnut it’s off with them oh dear!!!


Once again you really need to separate out the genes at work here to understand why a supposed cremello didn't give chestnut.

Her base colour, having produced a buckskin to a chestnut you now know she has 1 “E” series gene (making her base coat black) and one A (bay) or At (brown) gene (changing her black base to bay or brown). So her base colour is black but without the dilute she would be a bay or brown horse. What you need to know is what her other E series gene is, that is easy if one of her parents was a palomino as she would have e (chestnut since chestnut can only be found with two little e genes ) but if she is from two buckskins then you would not know without testing her genetically since bay brown can carry chestnut (cost of test about £16).

Then you might want to know what her other A series gene is, if one of her parents was a black buckskin then you know is “a” (no agouti) if not then it's a case of another test, but this does not affect chestnut so it’s probably not worth bothering about!

She has a double dose of the cream dilute so she can only produce dilutes, but she needs a little e gene if she is ever going to give you a palomino and to raise the odds and to get the best colour you need a cherry red chestnut without ticking in the coat or smut marks apparently the golden coin recipe!

Best estimate of her colour genes on info so far E and ? (black) A and ? (bay or brown) and two cream Cr Cr.
 
Quick way to tell the difference between buckskins & duns.......buckskins don't have dorsal stripes.
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Ah that ones a bit of a myth some buckskins do, sometimes have counter-shading that mimics a dorsal stripe, but it is wider, with fuzzy edges. This is probably from the bay as some bays have dorsal stripes and therefore these can be inherited separately of dun. Palomino will not have this.

The sure identifiers for dun are the primitive markings striping (barring) on the legs, generally across the knees and hocks, a shoulder stripe or shadow across the withers, dark ear tips, shadowing on the neck, cobwebbing on the face, frosting in the mane and tail, and mottling. These will be the same color as the mane and tail . Dunskins and Dunmino's can also have these and dorsal stripes.
 
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Ah that ones a bit of a myth some buckskins do, sometimes have counter-shading that mimics a dorsal stripe, but it is wider, with fuzzy edges. This is probably from the bay as some bays have dorsal stripes and therefore these can be inherited separately of dun. Palomino will not have this.
The sure identifiers for dun are the primitive markings striping (barring) on the legs, generally across the knees and hocks, a shoulder stripe or shadow across the withers, dark ear tips, shadowing on the neck, cobwebbing on the face, frosting in the mane and tail, and mottling. These will be the same color as the mane and tail . Dunskins and Dunmino's can also have these and dorsal stripes.

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Was just going to say that re the dorsal stripe. Sirena was a chocolate dun at birth
and greyed out - this is a picture of her as a yearling and you can see the shading, she also had cobwebbing and bars, although you can't see them that clearly in this photo, interestingly once her black foal mane came out, her main and tail were blonde rather than grey:
SirenaBaby.jpg


My filly born yesterday is bay turning grey, but she does have darker patches on the shoulder and along her back which shows that these patches on a buckskin come from the bay gene. Not sure how clear this is in the photo.

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Slightly off topic here, but in reference to what KarynK has said.

Why in the UK is there a palomino society with palomino showing classes, but they do not recognise the Buckskin, it is the same gene that produces both colours, just on different base coats.

I have never understood this. Isn't that colour racist
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Slightly off topic here, but in reference to what KarynK has said.

Why in the UK is there a palomino society with palomino showing classes, but they do not recognise the Buckskin, it is the same gene that produces both colours, just on different base coats.

I have never understood this. Isn't that colour racist
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I think the reason is that in the UK people don't realise that there is a difference between a buckskin and a dun. I seem to remember that there was once a Dun Horse Society so all the unrecognised Buckskins were classified as duns. I had a couple of Connemaras as a kid, one was grey (have no idea what her true colour was) and the other 'dun', have recently found out (through HHO
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) that those 'dun' connemaras are, in fact buckskins and are recognised as such by the breed society.
 
We do think that her eyesight is linked to her colour. Her own mother has since had other foals who were perfect (colour and sight wise).
 
Poor old buckskins dip out! Actually when I contacted them out of a bit of wicked curiosity the Palomino society didn't even really know how you bred them!!! It's a bit silly really as they can never be a breed as you don't always get them, they would all be better off joining together under a cream society!

The cremello society are the most useful they know exactly what they have and what they can produce and have an excellent website with references!!!

There are dunskins in the Fijord breed of duns, I forget what they are called and cant find my book!!! Their dun colours are a bit different to other breeds.
 
Sorry no I was thinking of the breed terms, which I can never remember, wonder why? but found it

Brown (bay) dun – brunblak 90% are this colour!
Dark dun - mort brunblak
red dun – rødblakk
Black (Grulla) dun – grå (they are all silvery in this breed)

The ones I was thinking of are the rare ones of which are cream plus fjord dun plus base coat colour so Palomino and Buckskins.

Uls (White) dun – ulsblakk
Yellow dun – gulblakk
Interestingly the primitive markings are overridden when two cream genes are inherited with foals born with full coat color cream dilution, including blue eyes. So it overrides the dun.
 
I know this might sound like a strange question but what would happen if the mare in question (perlino) or a cremello mare were put to a true dun?

if the foal looked like a dun would it actually be a buckskin?

likewise if a buckskin was put to a true dun would you be able to get a true dun foal?

Sooooooooooooo confusing!!
 
double post oh well its already been answered........ so yes dunskin or dunalino..... same creamy colour but with dorsal strip and possibly leg barring......
 
Two questions for all the colour experts:

What do you get if you breed a chestnut to a dun?

And also, does the shade of a palomino at birth have any bearing on what shade of palomino it will turn out? E.g. if the palomino foal is quite a dark shade at birth - looking almost chestnut rather than palomino - will the foal just lighten to become a normal palomino, or will it be a darker shade of palomino, or what?
 
a red dun? assuming dun is homozygous and always passed on..... don't know...

with regards to the palomino question, everything is variable.

Clients of ours had a very white palomino filly foal last year, she then went quite dark, almost dark chocolate, termed sooty palomino or sometimes smutty palomino....... her new owners tells me she is almost carmel in colour now with the darker liver chestnut points she had after her first shedding but still has her platinum mane and tail as opposed to cream. The dam was liver chestnut.

Mcjonnas filly

this year we have seen a variety of colours from our clients mcjonnas babies, one was almost chestnut with chestnut mane tail and body almost all the same shade, he has since gotten lighter but his coat is still very golden.

One of our own very white palomino fillies is now coming in a dark gold around her eyes and muzzle, so there doesn't seem to be any real pattern.

Really looking forwards to seeing how they all end up, two other colts were also much creamier at borth whilst the two fillies were white and the elder of the two is still very white yet her legs and under side are very golden.

Chestnut is a funny colour anyway, and really seems to change from one year to the next, umenno's tail was always a rich fox red chestnut but its now dark liver......

and have seen so many bright chestnuts at three and four years of age end up very very dark as they got older.. whilst some remain the same...

I guess perhaps some of the palominos coat changes in the same way........

some lovely examples can be seen here:

http://www.norsirefarms.com/goldlocket.html

and here

http://www.norsirefarms.com/sales.html
 
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