Cross Country Safety

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charlotte_crabtree

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Hi Everyone,

I'm writing a dissertation about the safety regulations applied to Eventing in the UK - mainly with regard to the cross country phase.

A lot of the reading I've done has led me to believe that rotational falls in cross country are the most serious (although not the most common), and so I'm focusing my research on the areas of course & jump design, and rider equipment (concentrating on body protectors)

Does anyone have any stories/opinions/experiences to share regarding cross country courses & jumps? Are you a seasoned eventer, have you never tried cross country? Is there a type of jump that really gets your adrenaline going or just scares the living daylights out of you?

Have you had a fall (rotational or not) at a cross country jump that wasn't yours or the horse's fault?

All comments will be much appreciated!

Thanks,
Charlotte
 
that's a lot of different questions! I have hundreds of different stories about xc.
I've produced and competed to Advanced and CCI*** level.
the only rotational i've ever had was at a little competition at a UK Chasers course (so, NOT British Eventing) many years ago when I was the first person to jump a hedge, it had had a big ditch on the take-off which had been filled in but not given enough time to consolidate, horse put his front feet down to take-off and they went down about 30cm, so he hit the guard rail in front of the hedge at chest height and we flipped over. I was thrown well clear (the benefits of a forward seat!), got up to see him still stuck upside down on his new saddle, nice. very luckily he wasn't hurt.
100% not our fault, the fence judge was horrified and they sectioned off the whole jump for the rest of the day.
other than that, never had a rotational.
have seen lots of xc shenanigans over the years, but you'll have to be more specific in your questions! ;) ;)
 
ha! sorry about that, I just wanted to leave the topic open for discussion - pick up whichever area you want to talk about!

that's a great example (sorry about your fall though!), so firstly(!) - what body protection were you wearing? and secondly - did it affect your confidence at all?

thanks :)
 
crikey, it's so long ago... I was possibly not even wearing a bp tbh (it wouldn't have been compulsory), but if i was, it would have been my first Rodney Powell bp.

No, it didn't affect my confidence in the slightest, because neither of us did anything wrong, it was just 1 of those things. No horse on earth could have jumped that fence safely after the take-off collapsed, poor horse had no chance at all to push off the floor and get his knees and then his body high enough.
It did convince me that a forward seat is absolutely the safest if you want to be thrown clear in the event of a rotational though... but that's another huge can of worms! ;) ;)
 
Brilliant, thanks so much!

That is another very good point, it's good that you had a good position!

There aren't any rules about rider entry in terms of experience or qualification, which means that pretty much anyone can just get on and compete (with probably a much less secure position than you had) - surely that's a huge risk, what do you think about the way entry is regulated?
 
charlotte_crabtree said:
Brilliant, thanks so much!

That is another very good point, it's good that you had a good position!
Click to expand...

Ah, no, you misunderstood me... by 'xc expert' standards I have a very bad position, actually, because it isn't defensive enough. The best xc riders are secure enough to still be in the saddle as the horse turns over. Personally i think the defensive position has gone a bit too far, but that's a very very unfashionable view. but then, i'd rather fall off a bit more often than risk being too close to the horse and getting squashed if the horse turns over... again, unfashionable!

charlotte_crabtree said:
There aren't any rules about rider entry in terms of experience or qualification, which means that pretty much anyone can just get on and compete (with probably a much less secure position than you had) - surely that's a huge risk, what do you think about the way entry is regulated?
Click to expand...

Yes, there are.
you can compete at the very lowest levels without proof of experience (although you'd be mental to have a crack at if if you couldn't ride well enough, and after all a LOT of it comes down to Rider Responsibility and good old common sense, no?) but all rounds are monitored, poor riding is flagged up in the dressage by the judges (i've worked behind the scenes and seen this happen), that person is scrutinised in the SJ, and if they're not deemed reasonably competent and safe they don't get to go xc.
of course, anyone can go xc schooling, no regulations there at all... ;) ;)
Novice and upwards you have to prove competence to compete at. Junior and Young Riders have to prove competence to do the lower levels iirc.

Rider Responsibility imho should be far more influential than Rules and Regulations. BE can't legislate enough to prevent rotationals but riders (and Trainers) can realise when they (or their pupils) aren't up to it yet...
 
charlotte_crabtree said:
ah I see...how do they check rider competence in the higher levels? I haven't found any information on that at all so far!
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You have to qualify to compete at the higher levels by results at lower ones, ; if you go to http://www.britisheventing.com/docu...nTitle=British+Eventing+Documents+to+Download you can download the BE rulebook for free and it will tell you more :) Also lots of safety related downloads on there :D

K - not eventing relevant but this video has just been linked in NL - very scary rotational fall :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFdX3bZQqsI
 
firstly, when you enter a competition you have to fill out a form saying where you did enough BE competitions of the correct level to qualify.
so, say you were entering an Advanced competition, you would have to list the Intermediate competitions at which you had gotten qualifying results (in all 3 phases, not just xc).
so, something like
Gatcombe date and year (has to be within a specific time frame, 2 yrs or 2 seasons, i'm not sure)
dressage 35
SJ 0 (no jumping no time)
XC 0 jumping 3 time
that sort of thing.
you have to get a certain mark in the dressage for it to be a qualifying result (50% iirc), no more than 3 or 4 sjs down, no more than 20 pens xc (1 stop or run out) iirc, some quals must be clear xc i think.
tbh i'm slightly rusty on it - this will all be in the BE downloads section, under Qualifications, iirc.
http://www.britisheventing.com/docu...nTitle=British+Eventing+Documents+to+Download
 
rhino said:
K - not eventing relevant but this video has just been linked in NL - very scary rotational fall :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFdX3bZQqsI
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Christ almighty. Not even any need to try to jump the bloody things, huge gap to the side...

Obv not old enough to remember when round bales were first introduced, a few course builders used them (team chasing as well as eventing iirc) and a few horses died. Unofficially banned from being used from then on iirc...
plus, not fixed so that it can roll. nightmare scenario.

I hope the poor girl survived.
 
My first bodystrap protector was a Ransome - it looked like a giant nappy with the crotch strap!! My friend had a back protector and it was so moulded polystyrene with a waist strap and literally covered the spine!! We still have some of them lying around and they are half the thickness of my current one.
 
That video made me feel slightly sick! Like Lec I had a so called back protector which was a thin piece of foam with a strap around the waist when I evented back in the late 80's. Early 90's saw body protectors become more common - does anyone know when they became compulsory?
 
yeah, it is amazing how they've come along!

I've never done cross country myself, the thought of the jumps not falling down or the horse spooking at the jump has do far put me off!

Are there any types of jump over xc that particularly gets the adrenaline going for you or makes you think twice?
 
charlotte_crabtree said:
Are there any types of jump over xc that particularly gets the adrenaline going for you or makes you think twice?
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I think that really depends on the type of horse you are used to riding. I've always had horses who are terrific showjumpers and can do all the technical stuff really well xc, but aren't naturally brave so it's the big bold galloping fences that get my adrenaline up!
 
kerilli said:
Obv not old enough to remember when round bales were first introduced, a few course builders used them (team chasing as well as eventing iirc) and a few horses died. Unofficially banned from being used from then on iirc...
plus, not fixed so that it can roll. nightmare scenario.

I hope the poor girl survived.
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1975 would have been the first year for round bales in Britain afraid I remember it well ,so cant have had to many bangs on the head!
Having just watched that Vid it just goes to show the wrong way to handle that sort of obstacle. I had most of my bad falls clowning about out hunting.Those bales are at the end of the day the dimensions of an advanced fence in an event.
 
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Ok so forgive me for being cynical but I am fed up with dissertation requests becoming hidden market research being done from companies. Apologies to OP if you are a genuine student but you haven't mentioned which uni/college or which course you are on.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=476040

You seem to be new to the forum so i am just drawing your attention the this link.
 
Hi arcticfox, that link won't open on my phone for some reason, but apologies for my lack of introduction!
I'm a final year student at Sheffield Hallam University, my degree is in event management and my dissertation is a 6000 word research project on a subject of my choice (I've chosen eventing as I'm a horse fanatic myself) - the reason I'm focussing so much on the air jackets and the course design issues (see cross country safety thread) is because of the word limit, ideally I'd like to cover a lot more issues because I understand there are many many issues about h&s when it comes to eventing!
Hope that puts your mind at rest I'm definitely not trying to trick anyone, just genuinely interested in people's opinions on the subject :)
 
I must admit, along with Arctic Fox, I was slightly confused by this post. So you're a final year student, with your dissertation due in a matter of weeks, yet you appear to have done absolutely no background reading?! Would it not be better to base your dissertation on something you have at least some knowledge or interest in?

I think if you come back when you have a better idea of what you are wanting to achieve by your dissertation (is it not meant to be an original piece of research?) you may get better replies. Otherwise the opinions of a few people on the internet will not get you awfully good grades I'm afraid..

The link Arctic Fox posted was to a post by ThefatcontrolleR, who is 'in charge' of the forum - the terms and conditions you so recently signed up to prevent research being carried out on forum without seeking permission. I take it you have not done this?
 
I personally fail to see any real link between Course design and the effectiveness of air jackets
they are two totally separate issues and not related at all.
 
OK, just to smooth things out...

Yes, I'm a final year student, and my dissertation is due in at the end of April.
I have done background reading and already written a 2000 word literature review on the subject. My knowledge of the subject is irrelevant as my own opinion, quite frankly, doesnt count - but I have chosen the subject because I am interested in it and would like to learn more about it.

My primary research will consist of interviews and focus groups, and I came across this forum and thought it would be a good way to get a lot of comments/opinions/experiences from people who are also interested in the subject, to shape the more formal parts of my primary research.

I'm not asking for factual information, but people's opinions on 1) the air jackets and 2) jump/course designs.

I am also not trying to find a link between course design and air jackets, but am looking at the two areas separately as different ways of limiting the risk of injury to riders.

I hope that makes sense?
 
So did you read the T&Cs when you signed up and ask permission to carry out this on-forum research?
 
No, I hadn't read that but I have now followed the link posted earlier and asked if it's OK.

This isn't a survey, no information is going to be published anywhere, I simply wanted to start a thread and generate a discussion about the two topics (which seems to be what all the threads are anyway?) so I didn't consider that it would be a problem.

My apologies if anyone is offended by my starting this thread, please don't feel the need to comment if you don't want to, I thought the point of online forums were to talk openly about relevant things in this industry.
 
charlotte_crabtree said:
OK, just to smooth things out...

Yes, I'm a final year student, and my dissertation is due in at the end of April.
I have done background reading and already written a 2000 word literature review on the subject. My knowledge of the subject is irrelevant as my own opinion, quite frankly, doesnt count - but I have chosen the subject because I am interested in it and would like to learn more about it.

My primary research will consist of interviews and focus groups, and I came across this forum and thought it would be a good way to get a lot of comments/opinions/experiences from people who are also interested in the subject, to shape the more formal parts of my primary research.

I'm not asking for factual information, but people's opinions on 1) the air jackets and 2) jump/course designs.

I am also not trying to find a link between course design and air jackets, but am looking at the two areas separately as different ways of limiting the risk of injury to riders.

I hope that makes sense?
Click to expand...

Your primary research is done after your lit review?? Surely this sort of research should have been done prior to your write up?
If that's still not done yet I wish you luck, my dissertation took a good 11 months to get everything together and write up. I don't envy you lol...been there done that :D
 
haha - unfortunately because of the nature of my course most of it is coursework not exams, so the dissertation is only 6000 words. the way we do it is to read around the subject, write critically about what we've found, then design a methodology to further the research with primary methods and conduct that, write up and discuss findings from there and then conclude. so I'm pretty much on target :)
 
anyway - this thread isn't about my dissertation!

some things that have come up here (and part of the BE safety manifesto) is jump safety - any thoughts on frangible pins and falling elements?
 
charlotte_crabtree said:
There aren't any rules about rider entry in terms of experience or qualification, which means that pretty much anyone can just get on and compete surely that's a huge risk, what do you think about the way entry is regulated?
Click to expand...

charlotte_crabtree said:
ah I see...how do they check rider competence in the higher levels? I haven't found any information on that at all so far!
Click to expand...

charlotte_crabtree said:
I have done background reading and already written a 2000 word literature review on the subject.

I hope that makes sense?
Click to expand...

No, not really, I fail to see how you can have done the background reading and literature review on safety in eventing where you have no knowledge of safety in eventing... :confused: Surely the BE and FEI websites should have been the very starting point for such research?

ETA; do a search for 'frangible pins' on here, you will get a huge number of relevant threads.
 
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rhino, to be perfectly honest I don't understand why you feel the need to assess my researching capabilities. I'm not claiming to be a professional, obviously I don't know everything about the subject and have missed certain points made in some documents on the website. the point of me doing this project is to learn, so I would appreciate it if you would back off on the focus of how I've conducted my secondary level research - and let other people use this thread to comment on cross country safety with their opinions and experiences, which is what it was set up for.

If you don't like me questioning the subject and reaching out to other people to talk about it, don't comment on the thread.
 
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