cruciate ligament + operate on not to operate?

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twinkle

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Ok so my dog for the last week and a bit has been on and off lame on the right hind. She is a bullmastiff 45kg only 2 1/2.

She went to the vets last friday to get some anti inflam and pain relief and to rest which i had been doing. which she imporved a little with.

So she went on medication and felt alot better so much so that in the garden on the lead she ran off on all fours after a bloody rabbit. she was then on three legs!

Now she is putting a bit more weight on it but not loads.

She has since had X-rays on her leg with nothing to be seen!

So i walked in the vets for them to tell me as xrays are clean (they could she a small amount of fluid in the knee) that she has ruptured her cruciate but in the same sentence telling me there isnt much movement at all when they did the draw movement on her!


I questioned how can you tell me its ruptured by just feeling her and doing a movement on her and that i should operate! i asked but you have only xrayed so how do you no its ruptured she then back tracked and said it could just be a small tear but still as she is so big i should operate.

So we are being reffered and i will be asking for proof in a form of mri or ultrasound for it to be proven to me exsactly what she has done? am i wrong in asking for this proof?

its nothing to do with money she is insured and if she wasnt i will pay what i have to!

Have also since found out they then normally have to operate on the other leg in the end and always end up with arthritis.

So my question is whos not operated on a big dog, how are they now?

Who has operated and how are they now?

Who had proof that there dog had done damage to the cruciate ligament?

thanks
 
My vet knew (before xray) that my dogs cruciates had gone (she even knew my akitas was not fully torn but partially from manipulation and sure enough on xray she was correct;) she is a very experienced vet, even I could feel the unstable ligament on manipulation with a little movement from side to side, also you can usually see by eye (they move in a certain way) once a cruciate has bust (for want of a better word) when they walk they do so with (depending on severity) the back part of the pad on show, I call it (toe touching) as its like the fore pads make contact with the ground but the back stopper pad does not and is visible when the dog walks (when normally it is not).
My rottie has had double cruciate repair and my akita 1 (her other has not gone) they did offer pain relief for my akita (as partial tare) and I said I wanted the full op, luckily I made the right choice as she needed a full arthrodesis, so she was suffered a little more on recovery. I would not leave such large weight bearing breeds to heel naturally, thats to much weight to carry unstable on 3 legs.
You can wait a while and try pain relief but if that cruciate has gone in such a big dog or even partially then it will pop at some stage. I think I waited about 3 weeks from diagnosis to op with pain relief and strict rest (because i wanted a certain vet) both dogs are fully recovered (my akita is 12) and there is no sign she ever had an op:) my rottie is 9/10 and you can tell but she is not restricted all all in exercise and can hoon as she pleases. I expect a bit of arthertitis and will deal with it as it comes, either way you will see that, repaired or un repaired. (which would normally apply to little dogs) like jrt's, westi's) they can be rested for recovery, but not bigger beasties.
 
I work for a orthopaedic ref practice and see alot of cruciates.

Diagnosis is made by xray and manipulation of joint.

I would always have surgery done on a big dog such as yours, I've never known any recover fully without and the sooner they have the surgery the better xx
 
Diagnosis is made through manipulation and/or x-rays and gait observation. Most dogs will be given a couple of weeks of metacam and told to rest and then re-evaluated to see if it has improved or to eliminate a painful knock etc.

Some smaller dogs (westies, terriers etc) that can easily whizz about on 3 legs can improve and heal without an operation, but for bigger dogs I would always have the op, as it is very unlikely that they will heal otherwise. You can deal with arthritis as it comes. Not all dogs have it done on both legs but you would just have to see how it goes.

Good luck!
 
My rottie had his done at 6, diagnosed via manipulation and observation by an experienced ortho vet. He had the op, recovered brilliantly and never had a day's lameness on it since.
 
mri may show the damage. cranial drawer is very indicative of rupture-if no movement i would be suspicious of it not being gone. You may be wisest to go for arthroscopy to assess damage. referall definitely anyway for 2nd opinion as current vet sounds out of their depth!
 
MRI=£1800, potentially.

Cruciate tears are quite common said say the vet probably knows what she's saying. Once the referral confirms, I'd be inclined to operate. Be aware that usually the second one tends to also go.
 
One of our GSDs (44kg) was diagnosed with cruciate ligament damage in Sept. He was 7.5 years old and active.
He's uninsured so the vet told us there were 3 options:
1. Do nothing. This works well in small dogs who learn to carry themselves on 3 legs. Being a big dog, she didn't recommend this.
2. A small op (£500) that was described to me as some sort of cross-stitch repair. Works well on small to mediumweight dogs but on a large dog, will give way so waste of time.
3. A big op (£3000) to stabilise the joint by inserting (metal rod?), etc, etc. Recommended for large dogs.
First, she said he must be xrayed as she could feel arthritic "crunch" in both stifles and if he was arthritic, then it would be pointless to do either (2) or (3) as he'd still be in pain.
He was xrayed (£200). Results showed he has brilliant hip score, but the portion of his spine visible on the xray is arthritic (WHY do they breed GSDs with humpbacks instead of straight backs) and both stifles were arthritic, the cruciate one worse than the other one.
She recommended (1) as the way forward with:

1. Appropriate pain relief. He was put onto cartophren (rimadyl) at lots of tablets per day to start with, tapering down to find a level where he was comfortable.
2. On-lead walks daily, building up gradually to an hour or more, to develop the muscle supporting the stifle.
3. No galloping round like a loony/ball-chasing or rabbit chasing/skidding to a halt/360 degree turns, or jumping/leaping, lift him or use dogstep to get in/out of car.

So that's what we've done. He's now not on cartophren on a daily basis, only if he's overdone it and then I'll put a couple in his dinner. He limps slightly (when he did it in Sept, he was in a lot of pain and could hardly move or get up, etc) but is keen to go for walks and we are careful not to let him hare around. The vet gave me a pot of 80 tablets so I have them to use on an as-and-when basis.

Hope that's a bit positive/helpful to you.
 
We were told the same for our Yorkie some years ago!
i posted here at the time because the vets said it would be around £2,000.
We chose to do nothing but keep her quiet.
She is absolutly fine years later!!
i have learnt not to trust the vets and would advise a second opinion from another vets,
Hope it sorts itself out.
 
A yorkie is very different from a Mastiff though! Glad that yours recovered without surgery.

The ref. vets will advise you OP on what the best route is but dogs do very very well after surgery and I wouldn't hesitate if he was mine and there are plenty of things I wouldn't put my animal through xx
 
Supertrooper said:
A yorkie is very different from a Mastiff though! Glad that yours recovered without surgery.

The ref. vets will advise you OP on what the best route is but dogs do very very well after surgery and I wouldn't hesitate if he was mine and there are plenty of things I wouldn't put my animal through xx
Click to expand...

As above ^^^ No comparison between a yorki and mastiff with this kind of operation if/when needed.
Both my big over 40kg beasties recovered fantastically. I could easily have left my akita to heal naturally and await the outcome and manage with pain relief being a partial tare, but it really did not sit right with me for such a big dog to be hobbling for any length of time, after the op (im talking when she was around from the anaesthetic she was fully weight bearing):)
 
OK, well I'm not really going to be any help at all! but anyway.

I've had quite a few boxers and 3 have had cruciate problems. All 3 had a tplo and 2 of them recovered very well and were running about like loonies 6/9 months later.
However, current dog had a tplo 3 years ago which was a bit of a disaster - but this was down to the dog's temperament rather than the actual operation. He managed to move the plate in his leg, got a very bad infection, and needed a 2nd op to remove the plate again. He's a very stressy dog and had a bit of a nervous meltdown about all the toing and froing as well.
So, last year his other cruciate started to go and I have decided against the operation. Instead I have gone for physio with a brilliant woman, and although the dog is not 100% sound he is so much more comfortable and enjoying life again with partially restricted walkies. Another factor in my descision was that he's 10 this year, which is getting on a bit for a boxer.

So, mechanically - yes the operation is a good option, but this time I had to consider my dog's mental health too!

Apologies for the War and Peace version.
 
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