CRUELTY - You Tube Video ....

The only thing I will add is, after watching videos of bears being taught to dance (which is undeniably cruel) the owner of the bear could see no wrong in what he was doing. He even seemingly cared for his bear, which I actually believe he did. The bear was feeding his family, he seemed to love the bear and made sure it was fed and watered and showed the bear affection.

The point I am making is, unless they are shown a more compassionate/successful way of teaching training their animals (this is presuming the horse methods are cruel, not saying they definitely are) then they don't know any different. We are far more civilised and compassionate because we have educated ourselves. But then this leads me to say, that if we are so educated and compassionate, then the cruelty cases here are far worse because we do know what we are doing is wrong.

I dare say we'd still be breaking in horses the unsavoury way if we hadn't have been shown a more compassionate way. But the people who did use the old method were not being cruel, it is all they knew.
 
Sarah Sum1 said:
We are far more civilised and compassionate because we have educated ourselves.
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thats a bit Xenophobic and patronising don't you think? the horses in that video were way more rewarded and patted than most i see in shows here. Just because a culture does things differently to you doesn't mean they are uncivilised.
 
Nah said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKpivyB5rHA&feature=related Some of them actually seem to enjoy it! I believe this horse could make a break for it if it wasn't happy. Especially the first clip.
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Un-natural? Apparently you've never seen my TB on spring grass he does very similar things, :p these people have just exaggerated the natural movement.

No different to us teaching a dressage horse extension and collection.
 
paddi22 said:
thats a bit Xenophobic and patronising don't you think? the horses in that video were way more rewarded and patted than most i see in shows here. Just because a culture does things differently to you doesn't mean they are uncivilised.
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I know what you mean :o Whilst I was typing it I did think it was the wrong choice of words, but I am rubbish with words. I know what I mean but can't explain it. I apologise if that offended anyone, it certainly wasn't my intention.

I think that is half of it, none of us really know anything about their culture do we? I only used thse words as that is what I heard on a t.v programme, but I should have thought about it for longer.

I think the word 'uncivilised' was wrong. I apologise.
 
Perhaps we all need to do a bit more deep thinking here on what it is we are actually doing to/with our horses? NOTHING we do with our horses is natural, not even keeping them in a fenced field area. Bits work by causing pain/pressure, we train horses by rewarding behaviours that suit us, we make horses do things that they would never do naturally, we make them run, and sweat, we feed them things that they would naturally never eat - but we're not cruel, are we?
 
Call me what you will but I don't see any animal cruelty there?
Infact, the horse looks happy enough. It can stand and walk. It's clearly not uncomfortable..

And just before anyone has ago, I am very touchy on the subject of animal cruelty and yes i'm sensitive to it. But to me, this isn't animal cruelty at all.

What about dressing dogs in clothes? NOW THATS ANIMAL CRUELTY.:p
 
I am glad others are now sharing my view, felt a little on a limb out there, lol!

We have alot of Indian horse owners around us, we even had one on our yard last year and I was the only livery who would talk to him properly and tried to help him broaden his knowledge etc.

It is easy to criticise other peoples cultures and what they consider to be enjoyable.

The local tent pegging team to me hack down our lane wearing full indian ceremonial gear, turbans etc and the horses are all done up beautifully with ribbons and bells. I enjoy seeing them.

I will also point out that despite the 'bit video' being shown there is NO EVIDENCE that any of these bits were or had been used on any of the horses in the video. As far as we KNOW they could all be in simple snaffles.

If you want to have a go at tradition go and visit your local travellers site and tell them what's on your mind. Although i have a feeling no-one will have the balls to do that so it seems you're just going to sit here and villainies the Pakistani community instead.
 
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There seems to be a natural assumption amongst some that the horses in this video were trained in a cruel and unacceptable manner. Is there any evidence to back this up?
As said before, the horses are looking well looked after, cared for, and are doing nothing different to dressage.
Somebody pointed out that if the background music had been different, so would the reactions have been.
Sadly, I have to agree.
Ignorance can be a dangerous thing....
 
I watched the video muted so I can assure that the style of music had no consequence on my opinion. Neither did the ceremonial clothing, bells or country of origin.
The implication that those who expressed a dislike of the display shown in the video are somehow racist is highly offensive. I can promise that my feelings would have been of equal dislike should the Queen herself be making a horse display in such a way.
 
Weird! They seem to defy gravity sometimes, balancing their weight on their back legs - how do they do that?! Are they competing to see how low they can go?

I must say it all looks very odd to my western eyes. The most distasteful thing I saw was the gun. While I certainly didn't like what I saw (enough to press the Like button), I have seen worse being done to horses over here or in America.
 
Cortez said:
Perhaps we all need to do a bit more deep thinking here on what it is we are actually doing to/with our horses? NOTHING we do with our horses is natural, not even keeping them in a fenced field area. Bits work by causing pain/pressure, we train horses by rewarding behaviours that suit us, we make horses do things that they would never do naturally, we make them run, and sweat, we feed them things that they would naturally never eat - but we're not cruel, are we?
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Good points made here
 
winterwood said:
Good points made here
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I agree.

Yes it looks very odd indeed. I don't really know what to think. :confused:

One thing I did notice was the horses only perform in short bursts, how long is a dressage test or very demanding horse race etc. etc. etc.
I'm reminded of those dreadful photos of horses strapped up with hyperflexed necks posted recently as well, they were in the western world I believe.

All that we do to horses needs to be questioned and that includes ourselves. Stop thinking and questioning and abuse begins...
 
team barney said:
The horse was sweated up due to the extreme and damaging movements he was subjected to, he did not start his "performance" sweated up yet he became excessively sweaty in a short space of time. He is after all well accustomed to the heat.
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Codswallop. Just because you're accustomed to heat doesn't mean you don't sweat. Horses here will sweat up in seconds at walk in high temperatures. PF sweated up even before I tacked her up the other day. I suppose it was in anticipation of being mercilessly hacked out.
 
don't know about those ones sorry!

and PF.. well... frank practically managed that in the uk the other week before I clipped him!
 
PapaFrita said:
Codswallop. Just because you're accustomed to heat doesn't mean you don't sweat. Horses here will sweat up in seconds at walk in high temperatures. PF sweated up even before I tacked her up the other day. I suppose it was in anticipation of being mercilessly hacked out.
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lol, well said!
I thought the same when i read that reply but didnt bother replying as some people just wont admit they arent always right.
 
PapaFrita said:
Codswallop. Just because you're accustomed to heat doesn't mean you don't sweat. Horses here will sweat up in seconds at walk in high temperatures. PF sweated up even before I tacked her up the other day. I suppose it was in anticipation of being mercilessly hacked out.
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I didn't mean to imply that it did... my intention was to say that I did not believe the heat to be the main contributing factor in producing the excess sweat on the buckskin in the video clip which I posted (not the OP's video clip).

Of course horses sweat up, I wasn't implying that any horse who is sweating is perspiring through stress, just that stress can cause excessive perspiration!!!!!!!!
 
Right, well, think its decided that the video is nothing more than a display of horsemanship at someone's wedding.

Meh.
 
team barney said:
I didn't mean to imply that it did... my intention was to say that I did not believe the heat to be the main contributing factor in producing the excess sweat on the buckskin in the video clip which I posted (not the OP's video clip).

Of course horses sweat up, I wasn't implying that any horse who is sweating is perspiring through stress, just that stress can cause excessive perspiration!!!!!!!!
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But heat IS a factor so you can't exclude it. Also, considering the video cuts twice before any sweat is shown, you can't possibly know what period of time elapsed before it started.
 
I cant be bothered to read through all the comments.... after seeing people writing ' there is worse cruelty!'.............Sorry, but cruelty is cruelty, whether it is barbaric or subtle, there is no excuse.
The way some (possibly most) of these horses are trained is appalling, and you can clearly see in a few of these videos that the horses front legs are tied to their mouths, which are open due to the amount of pressure! Yes the handler may let that pressure of when it stops performing the trick (where he is able. In one clip which has been posted here, the buckskin has a rope of some kind wrapped around his front leg and onto the bit, its quite apparent that he lifts his leg to relieve the pressure, his mouth is wrenched open!! so no let up when he tries to relax!) but for those seconds that the horse is performing, it is being forced. Where it is not being forced during the public appearance, you can bet it has been forced in training.
All the comments saying, there is no cruelty, the horses are well looked after and stroked. Sorry, but how many times do we hear of cruel training methods going on behind closed doors, only for a beautifully well turned out and well fed horse to appear to the public.
You wont always see a trembling scared looking horse when they are relaxing between performances, and they certainly wont try and make a run for it, its called resignation!!! Its often all they know and they are past caring.
 
I'd be interested to see the bits they use - I didn't see any particularly cruel treatment as such, and thought the horses looked in good condition, but i was reading a page yesterday (I'll see if I can find it again later) on dancing bits, and the horrendous damage they do to tongues, almost severing them in some cases.

I did wonder if the man with the cloth in the first video, who appeared to be wiping the horses mouth, was wiping away blood, but I couldn't see any blood around that horse's mouth or any others - so I'm not sure.
 
patchwork puzzle said:
Where it is not being forced during the public appearance, you can bet it has been forced in training.

You wont always see a trembling scared looking horse when they are relaxing between performances, and they certainly wont try and make a run for it, its called resignation!!! Its often all they know and they are past caring.
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For your first point, that's a huge assumption to make. Where is your proof that all these horses will have been 'forced' to do this? Horses are amazingly trainable creatures and I would hope almost all of 'us' would be able to train horses without forcing or 'beating' them.

For your second, no, it is termed learned helplessness, and as all the horses on these clips immediately relaxed but remained alert it is very unlikely to be a case of this at all.
 
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