Crufts- a step in the right direction for health?

[Aru]

Bulldog and Pekingese fail Crufts vet checks
"No dog representing the Pekingese and Bulldog breeds will compete in Thursday evening’s Best in Group competitions at Crufts after they failed the new veterinary checks that have been introduced to the show.

The Best of Breed award was not given to Pekingese, Palacegarden Bianca, or Bulldog, Mellowmood One In A Million, following their veterinary checks, which were carried out by an independent veterinary surgeon. This means that the dogs will not be allowed to continue into the Toy or Utility Best in Group competitions respectively.

The Kennel Club has introduced veterinary checks for the Best of Breed winners at all Kennel Club licensed General and Group Championship Dog Shows from Crufts 2012 onwards, in 15 designated high profile breeds. This measure was introduced to ensure that Best of Breed awards are not given to any dogs that show visible signs of problems due to conditions that affect their health or welfare.

The fifteen high profile breeds are as follows: Basset Hound, Bloodhound, Bulldog, Chow Chow, Clumber Spaniel, Dogue De Bordeaux, German Shepherd Dog, Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Pekingese, Shar Pei, St Bernard, French Bulldog, Pug and Chinese Crested.

Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary, said: “We are determined to ensure that the show ring is a positive force for change and that we help to move breeds forward by only rewarding the healthiest examples of a breed.

“The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes. The independent veterinary surgeon decided that the Pekingese and Bulldog should not pass their checks and therefore they did not receive their Best of Breed awards and will not be representing their breeds in the remainder of the competition.”
http://www.crufts.org.uk/news/bulldog-and-pekingese-fail-crufts-vet-checks

Have to admit I read this and was absolutely delighted
!I feel bad for the breeders involved who got their dogs to this level to face such dissappointment.....

but having watched bulldogs, almost all of them entire dogs intended for future breeding, go under the operations to fix their breathing problems and some of them die in-spite of intensive and full time monitoring and care.... I am Absolutely delighted to see the breeds highlighted as the not healthy creatures that they are.

Perhaps finally the judges will start prioritising dogs who can actually breath.

Who do not end up waking up with after operations and not wanting to spit out their Endotracheal tubes as its the first time in their lives they could breath properly, who do not snore and gasp as they sleep because their facial anatomy,which has the same features as a normal non exaggerated skulled canine, is scrunched up into a flat face and is obstructing their windpipes...who have nostrils that are not slits that need to be cut open to allow in air, that have tracheas of a normal size to allow for proper air exchange.

Ah I am ranting now arent I?...but ya im happy to hear that times are changing, that steps in the right direction seem to have been taken.
What do ye think on here though?will this sort of thing make a difference to the breed? Or do you think people will still breed for the look?regardless of the health of the animal...

 

[MurphysMinder]

I think it was quite predictable that those 2 breeds wouldn't go through. It was highly unlikely there was going to be a dog in those breeds at Crufts which was not far too short in the muzzle to pass a vet check. There was talk in the dog press of the possibility of people taking legal action against the vets involved if a previously successful dog was not allowed to go through, think that is unlikely to happen but I can understand why not many vets were keen to volunteer for the job.
Obviously I am biased as GSDs are my own breed but I do think that the health check on GSDs is going to be a different matter, the vet is going to be looking for unsound hocks I presume, whilst I totally agree that a dog with loose hocks shouldn't be BOB it is not imho indicative of a "health issue", e.g. hip dysplasia. The bitch I had with atrocious hips was as sound as a bell both in front and behind, even at 12 years old.

 

[cefyl]

Says it all really about the imcompetance of judges! Really if they need a vet to DQ the BOB's, then the judge who put them there is not fit to judge.

 

[splashgirl45]

i was pleasantly surprised that finally something positive is being done regarding something as basic as being able to breathe....howeveri think it will take a very long time to make a difference, still its progress

 

[MurphysMinder]

It is going to take a very long time, breeders have been breeding for certain characteristics for years, and judges have been putting such dogs to the top. I do have some sympathy for the judges of the 2 breeds (so far) disqualified, I do wonder if there were dogs there who would have met the checks the vets were doing, and a judge cannot really withhold BoB when they have a class full of Champions, those changes cannot just happen overnight, or even over a couple of generations.

 

[Aru]

Ah but did other brachycephalic dogs did get through?
If they did then there must have been something more distinctive about the two dogs of those breeds then just a short muzzle.Other short faced dogs can get the same type of breathing issues as bulldogs,its down as a brachycephalic syndrome so they are not alone in the issue there.
I do hope its not just a publicity stunt to appease the media...

As you said loose hocks wouldn't be a BOB anyway you would hope that it wouldn't be an issue....and they would test on a surface that the dog could show off its gait properly! Id imagine or at least hope that whichever vet was doing the final call had enough sense to know what issues can or cannot be raised in a physical exam!

Loose hocks is only a vague sign of possible hip issues in young dogs its not a definite sign at all...just an orange warning light in some dogs that maybe something isn't right.That an xray or more tests might not be a bad idea.

Sad to hear that people were threatening to sue a vet who raised an issue with the health of dogs being shown. You would hope that showing people would be more keen to show the world that their dogs do not have the issues that the breeds are prone to! that they are heathy dogs,and that they were not trying to brush aside serious health issues away by saying its just normal for that breed... but I guess not

I know there would be a worry that they were just being sacrificed again to applease the media and publicity storm around crufts........BUT if they had nothing to worry about then why threaten to sue? In some cases I think its time that awareness was raised about just how unhealthy the show champions can be....looks are not everything.

But I guess change isn't always appreciated as a good thing. Especially when a lot of money time and effort has been involved in the situation.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Well the pug looked to be struggling in the group, but apart from that everything else I saw looked okay.
I actually said a dog with loose hocks shouldn't be BOB, didn't say it doesn't happen, you probably would struggle to find somewhere in Crufts to move a GSD properly to be honest, unless you went outside, but hopefully it won't be an issue. My point was that loose hocks are not by any means a sign of bad hips, particularly in a young dog as they can muscle up as they mature, so not sure what the vet will be looking for in GSDs when carrying out the health check.
It wasn't so much that specific people were threatening to sue, more that the point was raised that it was a possibility. The majority of breeders of every breed do only want the best for their breed, but sometimes they can be a bit blinkered I think.

 

[Aru]

Says it all really about the imcompetance of judges! Really if they need a vet to DQ the BOB's, then the judge who put them there is not fit to judge.

In fairness to the judges they do judge a lot on the looks and movement of the dog.Not on how it functions as a working body .And dogs can fit the breed profile beautifully....but then turn out to have other issues that should stop it from being healthy. Most judges aren't vets they cant be expected to be able to pick up on all the healthy issues of the breeds.... perhaps more of a push towards common sense is needed...but if your judging bulldogs how do you decide if they are healthy or not? Most will show the hallmarks of Brachocepahlic syndrome....and the ones that dont are probably not matching the breed standard as well as those that do!

A cavalier could be perfect in terms of the breed standard but still have a disease like Syringohydromyelia....just not have it manifested.
Going by looks alone will not help because its the distinctive looks of the breed that caused the disease to be bred in in the first place. Ive meet gorgeous little cavis who were just confirmed as having that disease by mri....to look at they seemed perfectly normal. Gorgeous little dogs if im perfectly honest. Cavis are in general lovely little dogs. But thats a disease that can only be confirmed in or out by mri.high suspicion on the clinical signs but they are not definite proof of the disease....if they want to eradicate it from the breed then its testing needs to be done on breeding dogs. Judges aren't solely responsible for that breed issue.Breeders need to take responsibility as well.

You cannot expect a judge to know as much about each and every breed they judge at from a veterinary prospective.....Even vets have issues with knowing all breed specific issues!

 

[cefyl]

Aru - when a judge is assigned a Crufts appointment this is the highest accolade of their judging career. They SHOULD be 100% sure of the breed standard of the breed they are judging and therefore what is was bred for in the first place. After all the KC mantra is "fit for purpose".

 

[MurphysMinder]

You are right of course Cefyl, but the whole point is for many years the dogs that have been disqualified were more than likely considered to be prime examples of the breed standard.

 

[Aru]

Aru - when a judge is assigned a Crufts appointment this is the highest accolade of their judging career. They SHOULD be 100% sure of the breed standard of the breed they are judging and therefore what is was bred for in the first place. After all the KC mantra is "fit for purpose".

There is that.
But in an animal like a English Bulldog, A pekinese, a pug...what is purpose?Just a musing...not a real question.

The breed standard is open to interpretation.Otherwise there wouldn't be so much of a change between how dogs looked 50 years ago compared to now.Its exaggerating the very standards of the breed that caused the issues that are seen today to be there.

Thought I completely agree with you that they should be expected to chose fit healthy dogs as close to the standard as is possible...but I do have pity for the judges in this case as well....i would hazard a guess that there will not have been enough changes in some of the breeds for them to have passed today no matter which dog was chosen from the countries champions...because the current accepted breed standard for dogs such as the Bulldog will struggle to produce consistently healthy dogs.

Its the exaggerated standard that is causing the issue and up until now judges were choosing the dogs by looks and gait....hopefully today will be an overall change for the better in how dogs will be picked as ideal with health being the focus.

But I dont know how breeds like the bulldogs in their current look will survive in the showring?
And if the breeders of these dogs will want the changes that are being pushed upon them...If they did would they not be implementing them themselves already....how did it get to the stage that their champion dogs were deemed unfit?

 

[EAST KENT]

Speaking as someone who has judged Crufts twice I am not so sure a judge should be obliged to assess veterinary conditions.In my breeds..bull terriers and mini bull terriers..the main defect in the bigger ones would be patella luxation.A few years ago a judge at Crufts put for BOB a bitch slipping it`s stifle badly..now I wanted The Bull Terrier Club ..was on the Committee then..to object.Their answer? "are you a vet..you`d need top be a vet to see that".No,in a smooth coated breed it is extremely obvious to see a patella slip out of place.
My answer( how not to gain friends) was that I found that answer incredibly worrying coming as it does from a group of championship judges of the breed.
I cannot wait to hear just what the "independent vet" found that was so appalling about those two breeds ,given they conform to the present KC Breed Standard.
So you see,if you are the judge you cannot really win can you? Put up typey dogs..ignore obvious faults and defects =keep your nose clean in the breed circles...or, do as that brilliant Cav Health Officer did ,blow the whistle,get villified and banned by the breed club. I myself am more leaning toward that lady than the breed club,very very concious of breeding healthy long lived bullies ,no birth defects.However,fact,the top winning lines can have sometimes only a fifty percent survival in newborns due to cleft palates/hare lips and open skulls,they get an extreme "banana" head at a big price. Those lines also have juvenile kidney failure and heart disease ..all well swept under the carpet.So,for my breedings ,I avoid like the plague those lines....does`nt make friends you know!

 

[MurphysMinder]

That is what I was trying to say Aru, there hasn't been time for changes in some of the breeds, it is going to take several generations, always providing breeders want to change.
As to purpose, well a bulldog was bred to bait bulls, and the design of the jaw and muzzle was apparently to enable them to hang on to the bulls nose, not really a purpose they need to be fit for any more.

 

[Aru]

That is what I was trying to say Aru, there hasn't been time for changes in some of the breeds, it is going to take several generations, always providing breeders want to change.
As to purpose, well a bulldog was bred to bait bulls, and the design of the jaw and muzzle was apparently to enable them to hang on to the bulls nose, not really a purpose they need to be fit for any more.

Reread your post and realised I was practically parroting your alright!

Ya I couldn't see imagine any bulldog I have ever met being able to survive an encounter with a bull! they wouldn't be able to hang on...they tend to have issues breathing through their noses!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Clokellys Lagos, the GSD BoB from a few years ago was fully health tested and working qualified (including an AD - a 12m endurance test off a bike) and was absolutely pilloried and his owner humiliated despite going through the international system and testing and titling her dog (required for showing in Germany, NOT here).

As I posted last week, the 5 month old GSD puppy owned by a pensioner, who was described as having a 'deformity of the hindquarters' by the now KC chairman at Crufts and was asked to leave during the same year, has since received a hip score totalling under 5 and has scored 0.03% under the Penn Hip scheme and clear elbows and is clearing scale jumps with ease.
As can be expected, this responsible breeder who health tests and who used to work her dogs at working trials, wants nothing more to to with the KC.
The now-chairman was not judging, he was just walking around the show and singled this pup out of a KCGC exhibition and humiliated the elderly owner in front of people.
And he was wrong.

 

[Aru]

Speaking as someone who has judged Crufts twice I am not so sure a judge should be obliged to assess veterinary conditions.In my breeds..bull terriers and mini bull terriers..the main defect in the bigger ones would be patella luxation.A few years ago a judge at Crufts put for BOB a bitch slipping it`s stifle badly..now I wanted The Bull Terrier Club ..was on the Committee then..to object.Their answer? "are you a vet..you`d need top be a vet to see that".No,in a smooth coated breed it is extremely obvious to see a patella slip out of place.
My answer( how not to gain friends) was that I found that answer incredibly worrying coming as it does from a group of championship judges of the breed.
I cannot wait to hear just what the "independent vet" found that was so appalling about those two breeds ,given they conform to the present KC Breed Standard.
So you see,if you are the judge you cannot really win can you? Put up typey dogs..ignore obvious faults and defects =keep your nose clean in the breed circles...or, do as that brilliant Cav Health Officer did ,blow the whistle,get villified and banned by the breed club. I myself am more leaning toward that lady than the breed club,very very concious of breeding healthy long lived bullies ,no birth defects.However,fact,the top winning lines can have sometimes only a fifty percent survival in newborns due to cleft palates/hare lips and open skulls,they get an extreme "banana" head at a big price. Those lines also have juvenile kidney failure and heart disease ..all well swept under the carpet.So,for my breedings ,I avoid like the plague those lines....does`nt make friends you know!

Wow I think your post just confirms that breeder/judges do not in some cases want to see the issues in front of their faces. That poor whistleblower i didnt realise they got thrown out of the breed club
As for the luxation...christ im pissed on your behalf
Patella luxation does not need a vet to spot it!Diagnose sure but anyone can spot it if they know what they are looking for!to ignore it in a show dog...sigh...
I agree with the idea that judges of the shows having a conflict of interest(if that is the right phrase?) when it comes to judging on vet conditions though. If they are right they would be told they are not a vet and cannot base the judgement on that!if they are wrong then more giving out! I think your right...a judge would find it very hard to win.
The politics of the situation means they need an independent person! Though Im sure it will swing round to many of the breeders disliking the vets!Then again to a certain extend thats already true in a lot of cases

If I was to take a guess at what caused those dogs to be deemed unfit I would take a guess it is the BUAS syndrome.Brachycephalic Upper Airway Syndrome

The small little nostrils that dont take in enough airflow and collapse as the dog trys to use them would be common enough plus there a variety of issues within the mouth and heading down to the into the lungs that cause the dogs to have difficulty breathing,but those are more difficult to see on a basic clinical exam...But if they chose to look for those in these type of dogs that were panting,seeming to have issues breathing.....all they would have to do is close the dogs mouth and see if it can actually use its nose or not for regular breathing....its not unusual in the above breeds to have issues like stenotic nares and not be able to take in enough oxegen by nose.....then again it could have been another whole ream of issues...


These are decent links explaining BUAS for anyones whos interested...as im not sure if my ramblings are explaining the issues clearly or concisely
this ones quite vet language heavy
http://www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/HealthConditions/SmallAnimalTopics/BrachycephalicSyndrome/
This one a bit more user friendly
http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/respiratory/c_multi_brachycephalic_airway_syndrome#.T1kyVHJNsug

 

[Aru]

Clokellys Lagos, the GSD BoB from a few years ago was fully health tested and working qualified (including an AD - a 12m endurance test off a bike) and was absolutely pilloried and his owner humiliated despite going through the international system and testing and titling her dog (required for showing in Germany, NOT here).

As I posted last week, the 5 month old GSD puppy owned by a pensioner, who was described as having a 'deformity of the hindquarters' by the now KC chairman at Crufts and was asked to leave during the same year, has since received a hip score totalling under 5 and has scored 0.03% under the Penn Hip scheme and clear elbows and is clearing scale jumps with ease.
As can be expected, this responsible breeder who health tests and who used to work her dogs at working trials, wants nothing more to to with the KC.
The now-chairman was not judging, he was just walking around the show and singled this pup out of a KCGC exhibition and humiliated the elderly owner in front of people.
And he was wrong.

The dog who won the BoB did have an odd gait in the ring.Was it the carpet that was the issue in the end..or am i confusing him with a different animal?....Great to hear that he is so very fit for purpose though!
Shame that the media didn't chose to highlight that whenever people were giving out about the GSD breed!


That second story....poor man he must have been so annoyed!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Lagos was 2010. Elmo last year (who has won a number of BIS titles under both foreign/German breed judges and English all-rounders, who normally never put up an international-style GSD). Elmo won the pastoral group last year AND is current British Sieger (IE he had to do a courage test/bitework and owners had to present his hip/elbow paperwork before he was even able to enter the ring, the working class which he won also includes a gun test and offlead gaiting, this show is run under international rules).
But hey, some people think holding shows like that is mad/bad/wrong....

Most GSDs trained to gait out in front will look odd on a green carpet. The power comes from behind (like a Beemer ) they push off from their hindquarters.

She's a she

 

[blackcob]

If you look at the breed judging videos from Westminster the other week even one of the huskies manages to fall over on the carpet. Y'know, a dog bred to work on slippery ice and snow.

 

[Aru]

Bows down to Cavecanems much greater knowledge of the show GSD's
I think it might have been Elmo I was thinking of....not sure really.. I just remember thinking ah the people are going to give out stink about that dogs gait!

Blackcob your husky mention made me laugh at loud...really?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Most other people call me OCD/a geek

 

[Aru]

We all have our obsessions

If I ever decide to get a GSD pup I know who I'l be harassing to find out more on the breed and lines to go for

 

[Princecharming]

Just to put this right before it gets out of hand. I had my Bulldog yearling at Crufts today. And the BOB is a bitch called Ch Mellowmood one in a million aka Jenny. Jenny holds 23 CC's she is one fit and healthy Bulldog, she makes no noise breathing even in the hottest weather whilst being moved and moved, she moves with ease, has no conformation issues at all, hence the reason that many many champ judges have awarded her BOB per and over and over. Today a vet shined a torch in one of Jenny's eyes and saw a slight flaw, dispite Jenny passing many vigorous heath checks in the past. Of Late we have struggled to fight our corner against peo
Le who do not wish to learn, my Bully lives at the stables, running, jumping (even over show jumps) he comes to events with me, I never have any health issues with him whatsoever. If a Bulldog is bred right it is bred right, like any other animal or breed the bad breeders give us a bad name hence the "high profile breed" we feel that whichever bulldog had won BOB today would not have gone through because we are getting such a raw deal. If any of you wish on Facebook there is a group against pedigree breed bashing, on there you can access many photo's and video's of fit and healthy show bulldogs running, swimming, jumping like any other dog.

Please do not judge our lovely breed until you have studied it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

We all have our obsessions

If I ever decide to get a GSD pup I know who I'l be harassing to find out more on the breed and lines to go for

Oh no, I just HATE looking into pedigrees and lines


Interesting points Princecharming, thanks for sharing, when it was my breed in the firing line it was like peeing in the wind sometimes

 

[MurphysMinder]

Thanks for that prince charming. I think you are probably right that any bulldog would have struggled to go through with all the attention recently Glad to hear your lad lives a normal happy life.

 

[MurphysMinder]

And with regard to that green carpet, it may have improved now but when I competed in agility at crufts my Gsd actually fell over on a turn one year, and really struggled on several occasions .

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I thik it needs something as high profile as Crufts to get the ball rolling properly on this. I think some breeders need to be made aware that breeding dogs that subsequently need operations to be able to breathe etc is not acceptable. Perhaps vet history could also be considered so a Champion who needed corrective surgery can also be eliminated?

As someone said, fit for purpose does not apply to 'bull' breeds in that they no longer need to fight bulls so why are they bred to hang on to a nose still? A vrai dire, the features are exaggerated and don't need to be so squashed in some examples of the breed.

 

[Alec Swan]

I'll admit to having a rather jaundiced view of the show bench, and no interest in showing dogs, though I accept that others do.

Would it be so difficult to insist that any dog going into the show ring is Licensed, for want of a better word? The licence being in the form of a health certificate. Independent veterinary inspection, at a set time, or stages through a dog's life, would weed out those with unnatural or life shortening deformities.

There'd be the odd row or two, during the early days, but eventually breeders would accept that there would be no point in offering those dogs up for inspection, which were likely to fail, and eventually there'd be the realisation that there'd be little point in breeding them.

Now then, to counter the above statement, and if we consider those breeds which have specific difficulties in breathing, or in the case of Bloodhounds and Clumbers, for instance, the appalling eye problems, to only breed from those dogs which are able to live a normal life, there would be a massive reduction in the available gene pool, and in the cases of many breeds, an already desperate situation would be made worse.

I suspect that the answer would be to re-define those breeds at risk, by using other and related breeds to widen the gene pool, and if needs be, the breed societies could look again at the standards which they set. Considering the Clumber Spaniel, for instance, an accepted introduction of perhaps Springer Spaniel, with a subsequent breeding out of the Springer influence, may well be a way forward. How anyone would correct the deformities from Pekes, Bulldogs or Pugs, would be another question though!!

I'm wondering what others think, and would welcome their views.

How pleased I am to read that there are now those who show GSDs, which need to demonstrate a fit-for-purpose approach to life, and clear health checks, before they are qualified to be shown. Hardly a way forward for the toy and companion breeds, but for those dogs which are still expected to be of working use to man, I applaud their owners.

Alec.

 

[Naryafluffy]

Just to put this right before it gets out of hand. I had my Bulldog yearling at Crufts today. And the BOB is a bitch called Ch Mellowmood one in a million aka Jenny. Jenny holds 23 CC's she is one fit and healthy Bulldog, she makes no noise breathing even in the hottest weather whilst being moved and moved, she moves with ease, has no conformation issues at all, hence the reason that many many champ judges have awarded her BOB per and over and over. Today a vet shined a torch in one of Jenny's eyes and saw a slight flaw, dispite Jenny passing many vigorous heath checks in the past. Of Late we have struggled to fight our corner against peo
Le who do not wish to learn, my Bully lives at the stables, running, jumping (even over show jumps) he comes to events with me, I never have any health issues with him whatsoever. If a Bulldog is bred right it is bred right, like any other animal or breed the bad breeders give us a bad name hence the "high profile breed" we feel that whichever bulldog had won BOB today would not have gone through because we are getting such a raw deal. If any of you wish on Facebook there is a group against pedigree breed bashing, on there you can access many photo's and video's of fit and healthy show bulldogs running, swimming, jumping like any other dog.

Please do not judge our lovely breed until you have studied it.

This is curiosity, I don't show dogs so not really aware of the ins and outs, but from this is doesn't sound as if this is something a judge could know about when judging and looking at the download on the KC sight the vet should be looking for Externally visible eye diease, surely if they are using a torch this is more than externally visible?
Will the KC make public what the vet failed the dog on so that othe breeders are aware?
Is it because the definition make need clarification?
Bulldog: The breed is prone to respiratory distress. Obesity may also be noted and may
contribute to signs of respiratory unfitness. N.B hyperthermia appears to be relatively
common in this breed.
o Ectropion or entropion are considered to be conformational defects that are
disqualifying signs
o Damage (scarring or ulceration) to the cornea caused by e.g. facial folds,
distichiasis, ectopic cilia, poor eyelid anatomy
o Respiratory difficulty due to soft palate or small (pinched) nostrils
o Dermatitis associated with facial wrinkles or at the tail root due to a tightly
‘screwed’ tail
o Hair loss or scarring from previous dermatitis
o Lameness

As I said this is a question, I don't show and I own mutts that are in no way conformationally correct.

 

[g16]

cinnamon toast- if a dog has undergone corrective or basically plastic surgery it is no longer allowed to compete. the owner is obliged to inform the kennel club. the kc are trying to encourage vets to tell them when they carry it out - i think there is something on the kc registration which allows them to do so. they are still allowed breed though.