Crufts - the GSD handler

Don't get me started!!!! I have a great passion for German Shepherds as maybe some of you know! I have been in the breed a long time, neither a roachback or a dipped back are correct. Yes there are still some bad examples of a GSD around saying that Elmo is roachbacked makes me think someone needs to get their eyes checked!! Sorry, just my opinion! (and probably the same opinion as 95% of people that know anything about shepherds!)
Rant Over!
 
Tell you what Noodle, I've had a think - I've been a bit harsh, but here's a suggestion - if you love the breed so much, stop standing on the sidelines criticising and get involved :)

I am sure you will be made very welcome at the many, many shows, trials and clubs which exist all over the UK and you can see for yourself the type and shape of dogs which are excelling through all spheres (if you can PM me your location, I can recommend some events you might be interested in), I think you would be surprised :)

I attended the world Schutzhund championships in Spain last year, and if you think the dogs competing there were long, low, heavy boned, long coated, dippy backed, or skinny, roachy greyhound lookalikes, again, I think you'd be surprised :)

Or check out some of the tonnes of pics of working and show dogs I post on here, again, you'd be surprised.
 
MM - i dont see the need for sloped backs.... why is this bred into show type shepards?

when evidently the "working" type have straighter backs and look like they can actually do agility/schutzhund without looking cripped.

CC - the show type is the ones i have problems with.... the working straighter back (and imo correct types) are cracking looking dogs.

theres no way id support dogs with dipped backs.
 
Having owned a GSD who was PTS due to hip displacia at quite a young age I wouldn never have another although I absolutely adore the breed.

However I do believe there have been measures put in place within the breeding pedigree rules which have reduced the chances greatly of dogs these days having the condition (this is true of Greman GSD's can anyone confirm its the same in the UK? I belive it isnt manditory to have dogs xrayed if they are to breed or be shown in America and their dogs are at a higher risk .)
 
noodle_ said:
When evidently the "working" type have straighter backs and look like they can actually do agility/schutzhund without looking cripped.

CC - the show type is the ones i have problems with.... the working straighter back (and imo correct types) are cracking looking dogs.
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I belong to a Schutzhund club. We have show dogs working very nicely in agility and Schutzhund. My own showline dog has Schutzhund qualifications which I trained and handled him in myself.
Like I say, come along sometime, see with your own eyes :)
Also, check the photo album in my profile if you don't think my 'slopey-backed' dog is agile.

Did you know elbow dysplasia is common in straight-backed working lines?

Freisian, yes, you cannot compete in shows or working trials to high levels in Germany without low hip or elbow scores. This is a system we are trying to implement in the UK, the KC don't agree so a lot of us hold our own shows under German regulations :)

Also in Germany, dogs with high hipscores are recommended 'not for breeding' and cannot pass breed surveys.

All of this info is recorded on the dog's pedigree, which again, we think should be introduced here but the KC are not keen.
 
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CaveCanem said:
Freisian, yes, you cannot compete in shows or working trials to high levels in Germany without low hip scores. This is a system we are trying to implement in the UK, the KC don't agree so a lot of us hold our own shows under German regulations :)
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Shame on the KC, surely it can only be a good thing! Ok maybe more expense for the owner and also more work to monitor breeding but surely it would produce a much better bred GSD in the long term.
Good to hear certain groups in the UK are showing under the German regulations though, hats off to them!
 
At the risk of repeating myself, show bred dogs are perfectly capable of doing schutzhund, working trials, agility etc, without being "crippled".

GSD breeders are doing their best to improve the breed, setting high criteria for breeding etc, and have being doing this without the help of the KC for many years. The KC are beginning to catch up but have a long way to go. It rankles with me that I will probably have to apply for Accredited Breeder status if I breed a litter, as the public are, rightly, being told to look for this as a bench mark of quality, and yet my bitch's low hip and elbow scores will count for nothing within that scheme.:mad:
 
MurphysMinder said:
You obviously won't be swayed noodle, but you didn't seem to be referring in GSDs in general when you said

"i dont understand why hips that bad/sloped back can be allowed through" with reference to Elmo. Hopefully if nothing else you will now concede that he has not got bad hips.:rolleyes:
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But how do we know what his hips are like medically? If there are no checks on breeding guidlines in the UK

ETA Unless he was bred in Germany, which he may well of been afaik
 
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friesian80 said:
But how do we know what his hips are like medically? If there are no checks on breeding guidlines in the UK

ETA Unless he was bred in Germany, which he may well of been afaik
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Because his hips have been x-rayed and scored A normal.

I don't remember if he's imported, I think I recall somebody saying he was but I could very easily be thinking of a completely different dog :p However, just because the KC etc. don't enforce hip scoring here in the UK, doesn't mean that reputable breeders don't bother with it. Any half decent GSD breeder will test their dogs hips and elbows before even considering using them for breeding :)
 
Pix said:
Because his hips have been x-rayed and scored A normal.

I don't remember if he's imported, I think I recall somebody saying he was but I could very easily be thinking of a completely different dog :p However, just because the KC etc. don't enforce hip scoring here in the UK, doesn't mean that reputable breeders don't bother with it. Any half decent GSD breeder will test their dogs hips and elbows before even considering using them for breeding :)
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Ah ok so its quite common practice then, thats really reasurring :)

Of course would still be better if it was compulsary, maybe in time.
 
If anybody happens to be passing through Tring in Herts pop into the Tring museum. It's full of dead stuffed animals - better than it sounds honest ! It's very interesting to see how over a hundred + years the breed standard (many breeds) has been changed by breeders. For example the Bulldog there has longer legs and a 'proper nose'. Quite thought provoking - I have 3 jrt's and the 3 of them couldn't be more different from each other if we tried.
 
"But how do we know what his hips are like medically? If there are no checks on breeding guidlines in the UK

ETA Unless he was bred in Germany, which he may well of been afaik"

He has A-normal hips under the SV scoring scheme in Germany.
(Which, if you're interested, is then stamped on his German pedigree, which acts as a performance record, it stays with the dog throughout it's life no matter how many times it changes hands, and scores and achievements can be collated on the back. ID including MCN, tattoo and DNA number are on the front along with the names of the dog's siblings.
In a 'pink' pedigree, the health test results, qualifications and survey critiques of the parents and grandparents are included. Dogs from stock which have not been scored, qualified or surveyed or were recommended not suitable, get a 'white' pedigree.
Compare this to what we get sold with our pups here!!!)

Many people are now dual-registering their dogs both here and in Germany to take advantage of their system, my dog is registered in Germany and has his pink pedigree.

Dr Malcolm Willis, with the support of the progressive GSD fraternity, helped pioneer the hip scoring scheme in the UK through the BVA many decades ago and any good breeder of GSDs in the UK uses one or the other system.
My mother signed up to this scheme in around 1976.
We have always, luckily, had low scored stock and will only buy pups from low scoring animals, it's not a failsafe, but it's better than doing diddly squat.

Until puppy buyers are better informed and people continue to act in the interests of cash or 'kyoot puppieeeeees!' alone, then the cycle will continue.
Reward those who are doing things right!
 
Always wondered CC..if a dog is A Stamp Normal...what sort of hip score would that translate into in UK?? I understand our scoring systems obviously ,being involved in Lab Retrievers and previously Border Collies, but this German stuff is a puzzle.:confused:
 
There is a table somewhere showing a stamps compared to hip scores, but can't find it just now. I have always understood that A stamp normal is equivalent to single figures hip score (i.e under 10).
As Pix says, responsible breeders have been x raying (and more latterly scoring) for decades. Originally it was just a BVA certificate which was rarely given,a breeders letter, which would probably be equivalent to around 10 - 15 and then fail, which could mean anything from say 16 to 106!
 
Danke! That table showing the old BVA scores is interesting, I never realised my bitch with a Certificate had such good hips. :) Just shows how ridiculous the old fail was, can't imagine scores of 10 being discarded from breeding plans nowadays!
 
carefreegirl said:
If anybody happens to be passing through Tring in Herts pop into the Tring museum. It's full of dead stuffed animals - better than it sounds honest ! It's very interesting to see how over a hundred + years the breed standard (many breeds) has been changed by breeders. For example the Bulldog there has longer legs and a 'proper nose'. Quite thought provoking - I have 3 jrt's and the 3 of them couldn't be more different from each other if we tried.
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Before we adopted Prince puglet, I investigated dachshunds and found a breeder who breeds from the teckel standard. Her dogs have longer legs than most modern dachshunds http://www.dbarw.com/teck_home.html.

Shortly after we got the pug, I took this photo of a nineteenth century painting hanging in a Danish castle. Quite different from today's pug.

2rzpbic.jpg


Boston terriers, the other breed I own, are still mutt-ish, in that they've only been a breed for 150 years and litters tend to throw up all sorts in terms of weight and snout length. My Boston is 16lbs; my friend has one who's 32lbs and really leggy. I can't stand the breeders who aim for zero snout, push for smaller sizes, and will never buy a dog from one of them.

Boston terrier from the 1920s

whgy3a.jpg


My Stella

1zp41gn.jpg
 
Some very old friends of mine had one of the original Lady Essex bred Bostons;she was on "breeding terms" despite not being perfectly marked.My friends were not very dog wise ,and the bitch gave birth un noticed on some top secret documents during the last war! ;)
 
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