Crufts

Maesfen, I was brought up with Alsatians (there was never such a thing as an Alsation, thats just a spelling mistake) as my mum bred them when they were Alsatians. She campaigned with many others to revert the name to the correct GSD, and she was thrilled when the KC accepted GSD (Alsatian) and would I know have been even more delighted that the Alsatian bit has at last being dropped.
I think I can talk with the benefit of experience of the old fashioned Alsatian, which most others haven't had, and believe me although I loved the dogs we had then dearly, they did not have the working ability that the dogs nowadays do, and certainly weren't as fit as a breed, and there were huge problems with hips, and with temperament. They were far more of a couch potato than a working dog.:p My mum had one of the top dogs of the day, he had many wins including BOB at Crufts, unlike many he did have good hips and a good temperament, but he was a great slob of a dog, certainly wouldn't have got his backside into gear to either chase criminals or herd sheep.:p
I think it is harsh to call Elmo horrible, there have been pictures of breeds on AAD that have not been my copy of tea but I would never call them horrible, they are somebody's much loved pet after all. I may be looking with a biased eye but I honestly can't see a hunch in his spine, to me that is something whippets have , his hind leg action was as it should be, driving through the hocks, yes it may have looked different to some of the other breeds, but that is how they are meant to move. It is like comparing a hackney to a daisy cutting show pony, you jsut can't do it.
You are correct Amy May the breed standard has been damaging to many dogs, or more to the point peoples interpretation of it, and GSDs are amongst that, but the breeders have been foremost in trying to improve things, way before the KC deemed it was necessary.
 
I think it is harsh to call Elmo horrible, there have been pictures of breeds on AAD that have not been my copy of tea but I would never call them horrible, they are somebody's much loved pet after all.
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Not Elmo personally - but his stamp.....
 
PucciNPoni said:
Well, that's kind of my point. :) You don't often see something that is that successful in the show ring that can actually WORK, too!

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Maybe not in the UK but abroad it is desirable to have both show and field titles on a dog in many breeds. The BOB at the World Show last year in Borzoi also works in the field in Russia. There are many borzoi in Europe, Scandinavia and the USA who are multi Ch's in show, lure coursing, open field coursing, and track racing.
 
amymay said:
Not Elmo personally - but his stamp.....
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That's what I should have said before, it wasn't personal to him but the breed as a whole.

MM: Interestingly, was talking to both a neighbour and the lad that works for us this morning, they both asked if we saw Crufts, said only parts of it and before I could say anything more, they both said they were glad the FC and the bitch had won because they both looked totally natural and unspoilt, unlike - in their own words - those poncy poodles and that white thing! Neither had liked the Alsatian because of the back-end, it looked wrong to them. Yes, they both called it an Alsatian, no prompting from me at all so it's not only me being difficult, perhaps we're a backward area around here. ;)
Heck, I still automatically convert back to shillings and pence even after all this time of decimalisation, what hope is there for me to remember to call them GSDs but I'm sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't meant that way. :)
 
Zoisrus said:
Maybe not in the UK but abroad it is desirable to have both show and field titles on a dog in many breeds. The BOB at the World Show last year in Borzoi also works in the field in Russia. There are many borzoi in Europe, Scandinavia and the USA who are multi Ch's in show, lure coursing, open field coursing, and track racing.
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To be fair, I spoke as if I know SCORES of show dogs...but I don't. So maybe in the Uk there are lots of dogs that are dual champions (or indeed just dual talented ;) ). I know *some* show dogs and people who show them. But most of the ones I know tend to be people with toy breeds and/or poodles/bichon. Most of the gun dog people don't work their show retrievers and spaniels. Perhaps there are many who do. I do like the fact that form and function can go hand in hand, and not just for the scruffier little border terrier....

My own poodle is more a "working" type tee hee ;) but thinks he's a show dog (and was bred from show lines) . Confused boy :)
 
PucciNPoni said:
To be fair, I spoke as if I know SCORES of show dogs...but I don't. So maybe in the Uk there are lots of dogs that are dual champions (or indeed just dual talented ;) ). I know *some* show dogs and people who show them. But most of the ones I know tend to be people with toy breeds and/or poodles/bichon. Most of the gun dog people don't work their show retrievers and spaniels. Perhaps there are many who do. I do like the fact that form and function can go hand in hand, and not just for the scruffier little border terrier....

My own poodle is more a "working" type tee hee ;) but thinks he's a show dog (and was bred from show lines) . Confused boy :)
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I was chatting with some friends at Crufts on Saturday and we have both noticed a decided increase in ponter show folk showing more of an interest in the working side which I think is wonderful. Recently the Kennel Club has been organising training days and they have always been well attended. My husband will be entering one of our dogs in their first field trial next month, crikey! He will also be trialling our young bitch (that was at Crufts on Thursday) in the Summer!! Double crikey!!!!

I'm hoping that we will have our first litter next year and the sire that I am likely to use (unless I find something else out there that I prefer which is doubtful) has 2 CCs, his SGWC and will be trialling this year, so all in all a good looking talented boy!! Added to this he has the most wonderful temperament in the world.

I just loved the FC, he's super, especially for 9, clearly loved his time in the ring as well!! I also adored the PBGV, but then they have always been a favourite of mine, I loved her attitude on the move!! I did laugh at the commentators as the judge was going over the GSD, what were they expecting the dog to do, leap up and savage the judge?!?! I'm not a particular fan of the way GSD's are moved, normally on that long long lead, but, for me, as he went around the ring he was a bit too "strung up" (one extreme to another) which I think afftects the movement, as strung up big dogs always look to me as if they are leaning away from the lead. Then again, it is always different when you are in the ring judging yourself!
 
Maesfen said:
they both said they were glad the FC and the bitch had won because they both looked totally natural and unspoilt, unlike - in their own words - those poncy poodles and that white thing! :)
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Oh damn, now me AND my poodle are insulted at that! Poncy indeed. Well....mine kinda is - and he's got a real thing for pink things. But hey, I'd still put my money on him in a fight if I allowed him to or if i was a bettin person....
 
PucciNPoni said:
Oh damn, now me AND my poodle are insulted at that! Poncy indeed. Well....mine kinda is - and he's got a real thing for pink things. But hey, I'd still put my money on him in a fight if I allowed him to or if i was a bettin person....
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For once, they weren't my words so don't blame me but I have to agree that the cuts they use do nothing for them at all, it detracts from what nice dogs they are. Used to work somewhere that had three poodles (middle size!) and they were the most fantastic characters that loved hunting and ratting; I got very good at doing a lamb clip! :D I have a lot of time for the breed as a whole but not the styles they have to endure in the show ring. Just where is the point of them, it doesn't make them at all attractive, just glorified dolls and I think it's a bit degrading for them TBH; after all, no dog likes to be laughed at - or referred to as ponces! :)
 
You're certainly not alone in calling them Alsatians Maesfen, although I am glad to say more and more people nowadays are saying GSD. It used to be that a lot of people thought German shepherds were the long coats and Alsatians the normal coats, I have had no end of "experts" telling me that mine are Alsatians.:p
My son was very rude about the standard poodle, till I pointed out that they could actually be cracking working dogs, and have great brains, as said the poncey show cuts don't do them any favours.
Tillypup, I am sure Steve was handling the GSD like that because when GSDs are allowed to move on ahead on a long lead as they do at breed shows they are criciticised by people in other breeds and all rounder judges, they really can't win. I did notice as he left the ring he was moving out at the end of the lead as he normally would. I think the commentators were desperately trying to get brownie points from GSD people after the slagging off the GSD got last year.:D
Good luck with your field trials this year, the more dual purpose dogs in all breeds the better.
 
If you really are wondering about the point of poodle haircuts: Historically poodles were working dogs. They were used for retrieving (at least the standards anyway). The style of trim (lion/continental trim) was developed for a specific reason - to keep vital organs and joints warm. The shaved areas were shaved to reduce the amount of drag in the water. The top knot used to be marked with a color ribbon and each dog handler would recognise his own dog by the color of ribbon from a distance.

Personally, I prefer the puppy pants style over continental trimming....

And most poodles think so much of themselves they really don't *care* what others think because they know that they are above such mockery ;)
 
Alsatian/GSD ,whatever ..this one appeared a bit more normal dog shape than last years "frog dog"..who also has a myriad of work achievements I was told. But can it be a good thing for Elmo to have a hump in the middle of his back line and a down slope thereafter to his tail? And ,if they normally steam out in front on a long lead ..how do they steer the dog ?? Wierd.
 
Not to compare canine conformation with equine, but I do think MM made a good point about the difference in movement of a show pony 'daisy cutting' and a Hackneys high carriage. Fans of one may not appreciate the movement or conformation of the other.

Was over the moon for the Flatcoat, was the first time i've watched Crufts and lets just say i'm glad I only had the dogs in the room with me as I was a soggy mess :D
 
I think maybe what people are seeing is the slope of the croup which is how it is supposed to be, I honestly cannot see a "hump" myself.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...a=X&ei=Ehd-TYqiAYebhQeDmJzjBg&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAA

The breed standard says ". The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup"
As to how they steer the dog on the end of a long lead, they don't steer it, it is trained to move on ahead around the ring. At breed speciality shows there is sometimes an inner ring marked out but not always. If a dog can be taught all the disciplines in schutzhund or working trials it isn't to difficult for them to learn to run round a ring.:p
 
". The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup"
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This wasn't exhibted on Elmo. He had a definate hump back.
 
MurphysMinder said:
I did know about the point of the trims to keep joints warm etc, but do think like so many things in dog showing they have now gone totally over the top.
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Yes, styles change and in the show ring things can be exaggerated. Show poodles tend to be so *big* with the hair...but IMO I think it looks more balanced to the dog IF DONE CORRECTLY (whereas it used to be a bit lumpy looking).

My own boy is in a stylised version of a very cut down show trim...my husband hates it but I find the beauty of a poodle is that you can style and restyle at whim. No, that doesn't make them glorified barbie dogs, it makes them useful (to me)...hence utility ;)
 
Whether Elmo had a hump or a 'slope', either way I think it's unhealthy. I agree that he was a slight improvement to the GSD from last year but I don't believe that any breed should have that degree of slope.
ETA: I'm not trying to start any debate over the subject, just my opinion. Also I was delighted that the Flatcoat won- he was such a happy person and at his age it was fantastic!
 
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Really,:o was just the first that came up on google, and as it was taken by the foremost GSD photograper thought it would do. No doubt people will now find lots of him with a hump in his back but can't be bothered anymore, going to take my cripple out now, and just accept that sadly some people are not prepared to share the view of so many GSD and all breed specialists that Elmo is a lovely dog.:(
 
Right, we're going around in circles yet again.
Elmo is correct according to the current FCI (WORLD) GSD standard.
Just because people don't personally like the shape of him, doesn't mean he is a cripple or deformed, doesn't mean he is not correct, doesn't mean he is not fit for purpose, and doesn't mean they know any better than international judges, both GSD and all-rounders, who have consistently placed him at the top of the line or the working judges who watched him drag himself over obstacles and feebly take down a decoy.

But what the hell do they, or I, or Murphy's Minder know. We're never going to change your minds.

Go pat or play with your own dogs and be thankful that no one is slagging them off and calling them horrible names over the internet and think of me when I am out in the dark tonight training my slopey cripple.

A lady I know and her showline dog won their class at Crufts, you'd probably call him a frog or humpy too, I read every day how she is out training and working so, SO hard to get this dog his working qualifications, I hope you could say these things to her face.
 
Elmo may well be a lovely dog in terms of the breed standard, but that doesn't make in alright in my mind that he has such an exaggerated slope. There's no doubt that he was a handsome boy- I loved his face, colouring and he looked like he had a great temperament but his back was not right to me. I'm going to skulk back off now :p
 
Just because people don't personally like the shape of him, doesn't mean he is a cripple or deformed
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CC no one has said that.

I think you're taking this far too personally. As a breed standard one or two of us have said - 'nope, not for us'.

There are some really beautiful GSD's out there. I've been lucky enough to have two in my life vicariously. Neither were stamped as Elmo was, yet were from excellent breeders. Their shape, overall, is one I prefer - that's all.
 
Yes, I am taking it personally and I am fed up with it now. I have never seen any other breed take the hammering that GSDs take on here,

Go pick on another breed people, I see lots of dead lame dogs and am told it's 'just one of those things'.

When you're out there trying to make a difference and change things, to promote the correct type of dog, working really bloody hard with your own dog, yeah, it does hurt.
 
CaveCanem said:
Right, we're going around in circles yet again.
Elmo is correct according to the current FCI (WORLD) GSD standard.
Just because people don't personally like the shape of him, doesn't mean he is a cripple or deformed, doesn't mean he is not correct, doesn't mean he is not fit for purpose, and doesn't mean they know any better than international judges, both GSD and all-rounders, who have consistently placed him at the top of the line or the working judges who watched him drag himself over obstacles and feebly take down a decoy.

But what the hell do they, or I, or Murphy's Minder know. We're never going to change your minds.

Go pat or play with your own dogs and be thankful that no one is slagging them off and calling them horrible names over the internet and think of me when I am out in the dark tonight training my slopey cripple.

A lady I know and her showline dog won their class at Crufts, you'd probably call him a frog or humpy too, I read every day how she is out training and working so, SO hard to get this dog his working qualifications, I hope you could say these things to her face.
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Nobody is disputing how hard you and your friend work with your dogs but remember, that is your choice, nobody is forcing you to do it which is how you're making it sound on here but I admire your dedication, don't think I don't.

There's no point getting in a state because we don't like the GSDs of today or rather their exaggerated shape and note I'm not the only one to have said so; I'm well aware you wouldn't like my breeds either but it doesn't worry me if you and many others say so; you know what you like and why, I know what I like and why but I wouldn't dream of being stroppy about your views on my dogs; I know and love my dogs for who they are, other opinions don't mean a jot to me, you can be as rude as you like because, like you to me or me to you, the only opinions that count about our own dogs, are our own, no point whatsoever for getting upset about others likes and dislikes.

Pucci-Pony, thanks for that explanation of the clips, that does make sense of a sort; it would help if it were more generally known I think and then you might not get the 'poncy' remarks quite so much! ;) It's just a great shame they are so exaggerated in the show ring as it really does detract from what well built dogs they usually are.
 
Yes, I am taking it personally and I am fed up with it now. I have never seen any other breed take the hammering that GSDs take on here
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The breed is not taking a hammering. Again, those of us who are critising Elmo are saying how much we like the breed - just (again) not the stamp that Elmo is. I.e such a far cry from the original breed standard - which I, and others, seem to prefer.

You want to pick on another breed?? How about the Pekingese. WTF was and is that all about?????????
 
It would be interesting to know whether or not there are any statistics regarding soundness (long term) in GSDs that are built one way or the other. I would imagine that the hip scores would be a start? I think that if there is good evidence that dogs which have more of a sloping topline are proven to stay sound long term (even thru years of service and work) that would put rest to this whole conversation?

I am not bashing the type (either type). I feel somewhat aggrieved to have to defend poodle haircuts ;) so wouldn't like make someone feel that way....I have also been in the hot seat defending breeds of horses and their natural way of going (some think that Morgans/Saddlebreds/Hackneys are just freaks and how dare people breed them to go this way...). But I have had Morgans that were naturally gifted and never took a lame step in all their lives (with or without with heavier shoes than your ordinary hunter plate).

CC and MM, I have learned so much about GSDs from you both. I have always admired the breed from a distance and have come in to contact with them thru work. My brother had an ex-police dog that just didn't make the grade - and he was a fab dog.
 
I get the feeling that much of the 'GSDs are horrible and crippled' feeling is of the same school as much anti-hunting sentiment. It's not that people know the facts, they just don't like the look or sound of something.:rolleyes:
 
amymay said:
The breed is not taking a hammering. Again, those of us who are critising Elmo are saying how much we like the breed - just (again) not the stamp that Elmo is. I.e such a far cry from the original breed standard - which I, and others, seem to prefer.

You want to pick on another breed?? How about the Pekingese. WTF was and is that all about?????????
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Lol, you know what would be an eye opener is if everything, every breed, had to be clipped out; then you'd see the body shapes and know which type you like better. :D

Pekes are funny little dogs, some can be very nice others want to rip your throats out especially when you're grooming them! Clip them out and let them play and they're great but each day, those with coats can get in a real mess; always seems unfair to be forever untangling.
 
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