Crying my eyes out! Help!?

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flurryjuno

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Remember a while ago my post 'I want my pony back off loan?'(http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?615627-Want-my-pony-back-from-loan-!-!), well after a death in the family, not being taken seriously etc, finally got round to putting the foot down and telling my aunt we're getting him this weekend. Next thing we know WW3 has started, they tell my dad (I'm only 15, hence the not being taken seriously part) that THEY legally own MY pony who I have owned since he was a yearling. No one will answer calls to them, I've had very vicious and hurtful texts from various members of my family, been told that I will never get him back and am now completely cut off from them all.

Just quick facts:

-He is a rescue pony, so legally I cannot sell him on as I supposedly have
-I gave him to them in December as I was unable to look after him at that time and they were looking for a bombproof pony for my cousin to learn to ride on, them being family I never thought anything like this would happen
-We agreed they would have him a few months until she was more confident and then they would buy their own pony and I would get my pony back
-Never had him passported, yes I know thats the worse thing ever but having a mother who said she had him passported then finding out after she clears off and leaves the family she hadn't isn't great
-Been repeatedly reassured that they know he's my pony and I can have him back whenever I want
-They got him passported under their name after I gave them money and asked them to do it for me under my name

Don't know what to do, currently I'm a big weeping mess trying to get my head around how and why this happened. What do I(cough dad cough) do?! Do we go to the USPCA tomorrow for reassurance on the transaction of when I got him, do we go to the police, is there even anything we can do?! Can't bear to think I'll never see my pony again!!!!:(:(:(:(
 
Well a passport is not a legal proof of ownership anyway. Do you have documents from the charity you rehomed him from, like the loan contract? Do you have written (email/text) copies of any of the correspondance from your family members?

I am surprised a legitimate rescue pony would have come without a passport though, and that you would have been allowed to loan him out in the first place.
 
I take it you didn't write up a loan agreement? If you did and it clearly stated that at no point is the pony theirs, then you could take it to solicitor and then they would have no grounds to fight back.

May I make a suggestion and say that if you ever do loan a pony out again or have one you have a contract that both parties are happy with. I know many people don't both because they think nothing will happen but it so easily can if nothing is written dowen and signed. A verbal agreement means nothing if no mediation witnesses are invovled. Although I'm sure after this you would anyway. You can find a good outline from the BHS.

I would threaten them with a solicitor provided you have enough proof that the pony is yours. That normally scares people. Good luck in getting your pony back though.
 
He didn't come with a passport, I live in Northern Ireland and got him off the USPCA which is different I think. I have the contract, and I'm in contact with the people I got him off and they said they would give more information as needed. I know its so stupid what I did, but I just assumed because they were family and I was in regular contact with them I wouldn't need a contract, I feel like a complete idiot now. They threatened me with the solicitor, with the whole 'well we have a passport for him he's legally ours' so I don't know what to do now. Sorry for moaning I just need some advice:(
 
Ok, I would get a letter from USPCA which states that they are the owners of the pony in question and that you are the registered keeper. Also that you do not have the ability to transfer ownership to anybody else.

Passports are NOT a legal document of ownership!
 
Agree with rhino. Do both parties have a copy of the contracted signed by them and your legal guardian? (as you are under 18 anything you sign alone could be deemed as void) and did it also mention that at no point where they the OWNERS of the horse? If yes to both these take it all, along with a letter from the rescue, to a solicitor and it should be sorted
 
Oh how awful for you :( Absolutely go to the USPCA and get something in writing from them saying he is yours and you cannot sell him (unless you already have?) and then can you and your dad just go and pick him up maybe? I'm not sure if that's legal or not? He is yours so its not stealing...? I don't know! Maybe get some legal/police advice on what you are allowed to do tomorrow morning and just go with whatever they say... Is he being well looked after by them do you know? that might make a difference. So yeah I agree with Bethan- let them know you have a solicitor.
Sorry about your family being difficult- it really is the last thing you would expect. :( My mother has her aunts pony on loan for the summer and it didn't cross either of our minds to make a contract as they're family, so I understand where you are coming from with that :( Ignore the hurtful texts but don't delete them (they may be useful in a case against them). Good luck, hope you get him back soon.
 
As Rhino says, get in contact with the USPCA asap.

Are you a member of the BHS or a similar organisation? You can normally get legal advice through them, if not would I personally either go through a solicitor or your local citizens advice bureau as they would be the best ones to advise you on where you stand legally, especially as you are under 16.

If you still hold the contract and they have nothing to claim him legally I think you have a good case, especially as (if I remember your original post correctly) the horse has been kept in worrying conditions. I would also carry on with Rhino's earlier and excellent advise and make sure you keep all correspondence between you, do you have any old emails or texts where they reassured you that he was still yours? They may also be threatening you with a solicitor to get you to back off without a fight. However I'm NOT a legal expert and I urge you to find someone who is to get the best advise possible. In the mean time I would stay calm, let them do all the antagonising they want and don't rise to them. Put yourself in the strongest position possible.

I have my fingers crossed for you and wish you the best of luck. x
 
Thank you everyone:) Getting a written document in more detail from the USPCA, and my dad will contact his solicitor first thing in the morning. I've been upset and panicky about this situation, whereas to him this was like waving a red flag in a bulls face haha I feel sorry for people who want to get in his way with this! Feeling a lot more confident now I have more bits of information, thank you!!!
 
Oh sweetheart i feel so much for you. i remember your other post and you are so young(please dont take that wrong)to go through all this. i really hope your dad gets good advice. just want to give you a big big hug . keep us posted x
 
oh bless you flurryjuno! You are being very brave and determined and I really hope you can work this out. USPCA route sounds by far the best thing. Lots of hugs and love for Dad for helping you on this. Hugs to you too xxx
 
What a terrible situation! It sounds as though you have the full support of your dad though! USPCA own the pony, and as such they ought to be able to help you rectify the situation. It isn't all bleak, if the family are trying to put the frighteners on you then shame on them. I'd recommend you dont bite back, just politely inform them that the pony belongs to a charity and as such the relevant paperwork will follow. Keep it all on paper, and keep your chin up. *hugs*
 
I don't understand how you have a pony from a Rescue Charity with no Passport, as , legally, they should have done that and given the Passport to you.

However, that aside, Charities rarely relinquish ownership but just loan the horses out. If that is the case, then I would contact the Charity and ask them to intervene. Saying that though, please check their loaning rules first, as you may have broken your 'contract' by loaning him on, and they could decide to take him back.

I sincerely hope that it all works out well for you, it sounds as if you really care about him and need him back in your life.

Hugs from a miserable old lady.
 
Ask your dad to speak to the charity. He can ask them if they would include with the documentation, a letter stating that they require you to collect their horse and return it to your (you and your dads) care immediately.
Tell your dad to call one of the PIO's...there's a list here
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/207208/horse-passports-not-studbooks.pdf

and ask if they will send you a letter confirming that a passport is not proof of ownership.

Tell your dad to take this documentation into your local police station and ask to speak to a comminuty support officer. He can explain the situation and I would say he should say something along the lines of, "we have been asked to get the horse back and we want to, but we are concerned that there will be a disturbance when we do as they are unwilling to hand the horse over amicably".

This happened very recently with a friend in S.Wales and the police were brilliant. They had a PCSO accompany her to collect her horse. They were not there to "police" it or enforce it, but they were there to be able to take action should anything untoward happen. It was apparently all that was needed. There was much arguing, but the documents were shown (slightly different to yours) and with the PCSO there as well, they realised that they didn't have a leg to stand on.

Don't just go and get the horse....do it properly and be above reproach in what you do. That way, no matter what they try, you will remain on the right side of the law and be protected by it.

Good luck xx
 
Thank you everyone:) The person who I contacted with the USPCA says she will give any information needed so thats a good starter:) I know I shouldn't have 'loaned' him in the first place but I just assumed because it was family and I 'could have him back whenever I wanted' it wouldn't go down this route:( I have showed Dad all this and he agrees with you all! Leaving it this weekend so to let them think about it, as I really don't want it to go to court and hope they come to their senses that it would be a lot easier to just give him back and forget about the whole thing. If not solicitors and police will be contacted and I would like to think we would be able to get him ASAP!! I'm just heartbroken over the whole thing, and now I'm being called horrible things for wanting my him back, apparently missing him isn't a good enough reason?!

Big sigh, I'll keep you updated:)
 
flurryjuno said:
Thank you everyone:) The person who I contacted with the USPCA says she will give any information needed so thats a good starter:) I know I shouldn't have 'loaned' him in the first place but I just assumed because it was family and I 'could have him back whenever I wanted' it wouldn't go down this route:( I have showed Dad all this and he agrees with you all! Leaving it this weekend so to let them think about it, as I really don't want it to go to court and hope they come to their senses that it would be a lot easier to just give him back and forget about the whole thing. If not solicitors and police will be contacted and I would like to think we would be able to get him ASAP!! I'm just heartbroken over the whole thing, and now I'm being called horrible things for wanting my him back, apparently missing him isn't a good enough reason?!

Big sigh, I'll keep you updated:)
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Everything will settle down in the end. If they fail to give him to you, it will be the USPCA that takes them to court, not you so don't fret about that and I genuinely don't believe it will happen anyway.

Chill out, enjoy your weekend and get yourself ready to have your pony back :)
 
Um sorry I'm so confused about this thread.

I don't understand why OP didn't have the pony's passport from the rescue charity.

I don't understand why OP having been "loaned" the pony by the charity, then decided to loan him on again (albeit to a family member)......... sorry OP know you're relatively young on here but having loaned out a horse myself (and having got one on loan at the present time) its absolutely set in concrete on EVERY single loan agreement I've ever seen that you MUST NOT repeat must not, loan a horse on if its been loaned to you. The circumstances don't matter, if you need to move the pony/horse, then its commonplace in loan agreements that you must inform the owner, which you didn't do.

If OP has had the pony on loan from a charity, and then (without asking them) moved it, i.e. loaned it out to someone else, then TBH I would expect the charity to take a very dim view of that. There have been a lot of situations on here where someone has loaned their horse out to someone in good faith, who has then moved the horse on to someone else, and that's resulted in a lot of heartache where people haven't known exactly where there horses are.

Sorry OP if I appear harsh; but someone should give it to you straight out that if you're loaned a pony - by anyone, especially a charity - then you absolutely MUST notify that person or charity if you need to let someone else have the pony. Yes I appreciate your family situation has been awful & traumatic, BUT the onus was on YOU and/or a responsible adult to tell the charity that you could no longer keep the pony but could offer a solution in that a family member could temporarily look after it. If it was my horse/pony that you had, and passed on to someone else, even a family member, I would personally be racing up PDQ to get the pony back. It just isn't acceptable and instead of a lot of platitudes on here, I think someone needs to tell you that, not just now but for the future, sorry.

Personally I think the charity would be perfectly within their rights to take back the pony in question and re-home it.
 
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MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Um sorry I'm so confused about this thread.

I don't understand why OP didn't have the pony's passport from the rescue charity.

I don't understand why OP having been "loaned" the pony by the charity, then decided to loan him on again (albeit to a family member)......... sorry OP know you're relatively young on here but having loaned out a horse myself (and having got one on loan at the present time) its absolutely set in concrete on EVERY single loan agreement I've ever seen that you MUST NOT repeat must not, loan a horse on if its been loaned to you. The circumstances don't matter, if you need to move the pony/horse, then its commonplace in loan agreements that you must inform the owner, which you didn't do.

If OP has had the pony on loan from a charity, and then (without asking them) moved it, i.e. loaned it out to someone else, then TBH I would expect the charity to take a very dim view of that. There have been a lot of situations on here where someone has loaned their horse out to someone in good faith, who has then moved the horse on to someone else, and that's resulted in a lot of heartache where people haven't known exactly where there horses are.

Sorry OP if I appear harsh; but someone should give it to you straight out that if you're loaned a pony - by anyone, especially a charity - then you absolutely MUST notify that person or charity if you need to let someone else have the pony. Yes I appreciate your family situation has been awful & traumatic, BUT the onus was on YOU and/or a responsible adult to tell the charity that you could no longer keep the pony but could offer a solution in that a family member could temporarily look after it. If it was my horse/pony that you had, and passed on to someone else, even a family member, I would personally be racing up PDQ to get the pony back. It just isn't acceptable and instead of a lot of platitudes on here, I think someone needs to tell you that, not just now but for the future, sorry.

Personally I think the charity would be perfectly within their rights to take back the pony in question and re-home it.
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She hasn't had platitudes, she's had advice. Had she not been in contact with the USPCA I think your post would be very valid and would agree with every word, but she has been. They have the support of the USPCA so for all we know, they may have known.

There was no loan agreement because it was a simple case of family taking over the care for a short while.

Do I agree with that? No.

Do I think it serves any good purpose to give the OP a lecture on it? No. She has clearly stated a few times how wrong she knows it was so I don't honestly see any reason to say something that she has already said herself.

As for the passport issue. I have rescued a dog from Bath cats and dogs home that wasn't neutered and had been there on and off, rehomed 3 times before I took her and they had never done it.

The Blue Cross rehomed a pony I know of without a passport. One was done eventually, but it was a case of the pony getting a home being more important than the rules and regs at the time.

Not everything is black and white. Of course the charity is within their rights to take the pony back, but they have made a decision that they don't want or need to, so again, I don't see the point in rubbing salt into wounds that the OP has already poured vinegar on.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Um sorry I'm so confused about this thread.

I don't understand why OP didn't have the pony's passport from the rescue charity.

I don't understand why OP having been "loaned" the pony by the charity, then decided to loan him on again (albeit to a family member)......... sorry OP know you're relatively young on here but having loaned out a horse myself (and having got one on loan at the present time) its absolutely set in concrete on EVERY single loan agreement I've ever seen that you MUST NOT repeat must not, loan a horse on if its been loaned to you. The circumstances don't matter, if you need to move the pony/horse, then its commonplace in loan agreements that you must inform the owner, which you didn't do.

If OP has had the pony on loan from a charity, and then (without asking them) moved it, i.e. loaned it out to someone else, then TBH I would expect the charity to take a very dim view of that. There have been a lot of situations on here where someone has loaned their horse out to someone in good faith, who has then moved the horse on to someone else, and that's resulted in a lot of heartache where people haven't known exactly where there horses are.

Sorry OP if I appear harsh; but someone should give it to you straight out that if you're loaned a pony - by anyone, especially a charity - then you absolutely MUST notify that person or charity if you need to let someone else have the pony. Yes I appreciate your family situation has been awful & traumatic, BUT the onus was on YOU and/or a responsible adult to tell the charity that you could no longer keep the pony but could offer a solution in that a family member could temporarily look after it. If it was my horse/pony that you had, and passed on to someone else, even a family member, I would personally be racing up PDQ to get the pony back. It just isn't acceptable and instead of a lot of platitudes on here, I think someone needs to tell you that, not just now but for the future, sorry.

Personally I think the charity would be perfectly within their rights to take back the pony in question and re-home it.
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Agree with this, though I wonder if it even was in the contract from the rescue, what with the fact they re-homed without a passport. I have no respect for rescues that can't follow the law. Yes, it is important to find horses a new home, but there's nothing to stop them sending off for a passport whilst they're looking into the appropriateness of the new loaners. If they don't even have time to fill in a bit of paperwork, it makes me wonder if they had time to check out the new homes properly...

Would much rather go to a rescue that does things properly than in haste.
 
FlyingCircus said:
Agree with this, though I wonder if it even was in the contract from the rescue, what with the fact they re-homed without a passport. I have no respect for rescues that can't follow the law. Yes, it is important to find horses a new home, but there's nothing to stop them sending off for a passport whilst they're looking into the appropriateness of the new loaners. If they don't even have time to fill in a bit of paperwork, it makes me wonder if they had time to check out the new homes properly...

Would much rather go to a rescue that does things properly than in haste.
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Yes, thank you "Flying Circus". This is the point I was trying to make, and you've put it very clearly. Whole thing total shambles IMO.
 
The USPCA here is a lot different than actual horse rescues/RSPCA, the local one where I got him off was closed and since relocated hours away from where I live. Since then I had heard nothing from them. I've had him for four years, and on numerous times been told that he was kept in idealic conditions the whole time. After the break up in the marriage my mother of course sent him up to her friends, which was fine with them, and I got him from there as quick as I could. Afterwards my cousin was looking for a bombproof pony to learn to ride on so me trying to please everyone in the world once again said she could learn to ride on him. That then turned to them taking him to their yard, which of course I wasn't happy with-I had just got him back?! But me being the bloody pushover I am it happened.
It was supposed to be for two months at the most, with me being there at the weekends and keeping in contact with them everyday. That turned from two months to a lot longer. I know I am not allowed to sell him and wouldn't ever, but I thought a 'lend' wouldn't be even close to the same because I know where he was and could get him back whenever. I know I was stupid and irresponsible but I didn't think at the time all I wanted was for someone to be happy and I had a way of making them.
I just wanted some advice on how I should act and what I should do, I've already been told that what I've done is wrong and its basically all my fault and being reminded is making me feel a hell of a lot worse. Sorry.
 
flurryjuno said:
The USPCA here is a lot different than actual horse rescues/RSPCA, the local one where I got him off was closed and since relocated hours away from where I live. Since then I had heard nothing from them. I've had him for four years, and on numerous times been told that he was kept in idealic conditions the whole time. After the break up in the marriage my mother of course sent him up to her friends, which was fine with them, and I got him from there as quick as I could. Afterwards my cousin was looking for a bombproof pony to learn to ride on so me trying to please everyone in the world once again said she could learn to ride on him. That then turned to them taking him to their yard, which of course I wasn't happy with-I had just got him back?! But me being the bloody pushover I am it happened.
It was supposed to be for two months at the most, with me being there at the weekends and keeping in contact with them everyday. That turned from two months to a lot longer. I know I am not allowed to sell him and wouldn't ever, but I thought a 'lend' wouldn't be even close to the same because I know where he was and could get him back whenever. I know I was stupid and irresponsible but I didn't think at the time all I wanted was for someone to be happy and I had a way of making them.
I just wanted some advice on how I should act and what I should do, I've already been told that what I've done is wrong and its basically all my fault and being reminded is making me feel a hell of a lot worse. Sorry.
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Sweetheart, I wasn't wanting to "reprimand" you as such, yes OK you've beaten yourself up about it, BUT the fact can't be ignored unfortunately, i.e. that a pony you had "on loan" has been, well, lent on..............it all sounds like this is a dreadful muddle allround. You are technically "under-age" and were in an awful situation, in that you were in many ways the victim of circumstances; it would appear that decisions were made about this pony and simply because you were "under age" you were powerless to act so decisions were made which patently were not the right ones and out of your control. Basically whoever was responsible for moving the pony in the first place, and then handing him on to your family member, should have notified the charity - and they in their turn sound pretty disorganised it has to be said and frankly need to get their act together and start dealing with paperwork properly.

I'm sure you know now, and have unfortunately learnt the hard way, not to "lend" on any pony which is on loan to you; that is an important thing to be aware of for the future.

I do hope all this works out for you. Its an awful situation and everyone on here feels for you.
 
I know, I'm sorry. I just feel so stupid:( Just want him back and continue on the way it was before, the whole thing has gotten a lot more confusing and out of hand than it should have been and it is primarily my fault:(
 
Doesn't sound like it's primarily your fault, to be frank. The charity should have been a heck of a lot more organised, especially as you're underage. I can entirely understand how grim it must feel to be pressured into doing something for family; it always feels impossible to say no, especially when you're still reliant upon parents etcetera. And for it now to have escalated into this mess, with your own family threatening you... it's a pretty miserable situation.

However, there's been some excellent advice on here, and your dad sounds really supportive. Get on the charity's case to get all the paperwork necessary, as legally they are still the owners of the horse. Ultimately, provided there's the documentation to prove that your family members are the ones in the wrong, you'll be fine. It might be an unpleasant process, but it can be sorted out. So just try to focus on that for now, because beating yourself up won't be doing you or him any favours (easier said than done, I know, believe me).
 
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