CT scans in Head shakers

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poiuytrewq

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Has anyone ever scanned their head shakers? What was the outcome?
I'm about to bring my horse back into light work hopefully and he has always, since I've had him been a head shaker. Maybe not the classic vertical twitch though. I'm just looking into ways to help if he is bad this year.
I've fount a vet who does acpuncture which id looked into previously and has positive feedback in a lot of cases so I've contacted her for info. I will again try adding magnesium, although he has always turned his nose up at it he is eating well at the moment so its worth another go.
I'm considering a CT scan. I figure it would rule out fixable issues, ie- I'm not really sure what, something wrong somwehere thats its not proper headshaking.
I'd love to hear if anyone else has gone down this route and if so what was the outcome? Was it worth doing? I'm not for a minute expecting to cure it, just to get answers and maybe see something that's not been considered.

Or any other suggestions? He can't bear a nose net and usually turns his nose up at most supplements.
 
One of our horses had a CT for headshaking, it didn't show much. He also had PENS treatment which didn't make a huge difference. I am convinced it was due to the pain from his posterior uveitis. Headshaking seems to be one of this things that can be caused by multiple things and it can be hard to find a definitive cause. Treatment wise, again what works for one won't necessarily work for another horse.
 
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No he’s never really had anything major done. Had the basics. Ears teeth etc checked a few times.
The few vets I’ve spoken to about it really seem of the opinion that’s it wasn’t worth looking into and once a head shaker always a head shaker.
I spoke to a vet who had done huge amounts of research into head shaking and even she was pretty dismissive of ever getting anywhere.
I’ve known a few people who did chuck money at it and never got anywhere so I kind of accepted it.
I had success with Nostril vet the past few summers but I can’t find it now. Seems to be discontinued.
 
Yes...I had one done on my horse who was exhibiting atypical headshaking (not purely vertical movement/not affected by exercise/sunlight/wind/seasonal). We weren't sure if headshaking or possible fits/neuro, but did it to look for anything that could be reasonably easily treated, eg teeth/sinuses.

Sadly there was an apparent anomaly within the brain anatomy ,and as he deteriorated we were left to conclude it was a brain tumour. This all happened in a period of 3-4 months and was accompanied by subtle behavioural changes, so doesn't sound like yours.

Head CTs will give you far more information about the teeth/sinuses than is possible with X-ray, but are relatively poor at showing brain structure in the horse due to the shape/size/thickness of skull.

I think there is some recent work using electro-acupuncture that may be more promising and less invasive than previous treatments.
 
Sorry to hear that.

Yes this has gradually worsened each summer, it’s odd though in that some days I’d expect him to be bad he’d be really good and vice versa.

I spoke to the vet at B&W about the electro acupuncture last year, she sent me the info on an email which I must search out. I’m going to give the normal acupuncture a try first though as it’s local and he’s not a “terrible” head shaker.
We also spoke about nerve blocking the trigeminal nerve but the side effects and potential issues are pretty bad, I don’t think I’d want to risk that.

Did insurance cover yours?
 
Insurance wont cover it as its pre pre-existing unfortunately. I dont think I would be throwing any money at it considering the chances of fixing him are small.
 
No, but we always had a clear allergy issue and were able to treat that.

In terms of this year - both mine and another pony I know have been much worse this year than previously. Both were occasional twitch type head shakers with a clear pollen trigger that lasted for a specific time each year. Mine for example only head shakes normally in woodland in spring (tree pollen). This year I took her out hacking and she was throwing her head around enough to give herself a serious headache. So we bought allergy supplements and a nose net and all is well - but last year they were not needed! Other pony used to twitch occasionally in the summer. She was also head shaking violently and unseating her little rider - now on antihistamines prescribed by the vet and doing much better. Pollen counts must have been through the roof with the dry spring!
 
Yes, Arya had a CT myelogram of her head and neck. Unfortunately everything looked normal.

We couldn't find a physical cause and it was highly unlikely to be pollen related as it occurred at the end of September and pollen counts were really low. Couldn't find any other allergens either.

Insurance did cover ours, but it sounds like yours would be classed as pre existing.

Veronica Roberts at B&W is brilliant at discussing all options and she's constantly trying to get new research projects going. Definitely a good vet to be with imo.
 
Yes ours was but it showed nothing unfortunately. He also had the trigeminal nerve nerve blocked at Rossdales which again was negative.

Is it sunlight that affects yours? Have you tried a full face mask? Does he only do it when ridden?
 
I had a horse that shook her head up and down intermittently, turned out she had a tiny wolf tooth that a few dentists had missed. It was half the size of my little finger nail. She didn’t misbehave but wouldn’t take the contact forward.
With the tooth out was totally different.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Has anyone ever scanned their head shakers? What was the outcome?
I'm about to bring my horse back into light work hopefully and he has always, since I've had him been a head shaker. Maybe not the classic vertical twitch though. I'm just looking into ways to help if he is bad this year.
I've fount a vet who does acpuncture which id looked into previously and has positive feedback in a lot of cases so I've contacted her for info. I will again try adding magnesium, although he has always turned his nose up at it he is eating well at the moment so its worth another go.
I'm considering a CT scan. I figure it would rule out fixable issues, ie- I'm not really sure what, something wrong somwehere thats its not proper headshaking.
I'd love to hear if anyone else has gone down this route and if so what was the outcome? Was it worth doing? I'm not for a minute expecting to cure it, just to get answers and maybe see something that's not been considered.

Or any other suggestions? He can't bear a nose net and usually turns his nose up at most supplements.
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Hi there,

Im in australia and it has been discovered that head shaking may sometimes be a direct result of the combination of feed and certain kinds of grass. I know personally a person who had their horse pts from head shaking - got another horse and it did the exact same thing when it arived on her property. She did her research and got onto a company called Calm Healthy Horses (check online) who sorted her out with minerals and supplements. My own 13 yr old arabian shakes and flips his head in spring so religously he gets 'graze ezy' through spring and summer and is fine with no shaking or discomfort. I am pretty sure you can buy these products in the uk, there is a pretty informative facebook page also (i am not on fb but i have read through as it is public - in fact i think my pony is on there from a few years ago. Its not expensive and i know it works for us and many friends.

The friend who put her first horse down was devastated when the SOS version and graze ezy fixed her new boy.....

Just a thought, excuse if someone else suggested this, i haven't read the thread as yet.

BTW many people wear by their calmer - but it had no affect on mine. The graze ezy took the spring grass jollies away though.

https://www.calmhealthyhorses.co.uk/

J
 
Of course mine isn't going to be covered on insurance, blonde moment. I'd say it was pre-existing even before I bought him.

I've read Sue Deveraux stuff, but someone else just sent it me again so will refresh. Thanks

Veronica Roberts is lovely, she look the time to really explain her whole procedure to me last year, sadly it was decided that Ziggy isnt consistant enough to spend the money- ie we could turn up and do all this and he's not going to show any symptoms. They have to consistantly shake on the lunge to do the proper head shaking work up. Its expensive and she made it very clear that often the outcome is untreatable anyway.

Teeth are all good. He's done regularly, never had any problems other than routine. He's been seen by a couple of different registered EDT's So I'd imagine even if one missed something he wouldnt have been given a clean bill of dental health time after time.

I'm not sure sunlight is the biggest factor. I think wind, rain. Blustery rain is worst, but yes sun, in the past I thought rape fields. Flies or bits blowing in the wind. Equally there can be a day which should be bad and he's ok.
Mostly apparent ridden, He certainly wouldnt stand in the field doing it but he will jerk randomly, yesterday he was doing it quite a lot in strong wind.

He wont wear anything on his face, nose nets are worst! he starts snorting almost instantly and gets more and more wound up. Also fly masks that cover his ears are a no. He now wears a mask out in the field but it has to be the Shires Earless ones that just have a thin strap behind the ears.

He won't eat any supplements. The only time I've got extra bits into him are straight herbs which he is happy with. I had a combo of Valerian, Vervain and Chammomile last year and i thought that helped. i am going to buy a bottle of Nupafeed magnesium again though as there is so little grass he is hungry so i may get it into him.

I had a lovely email off the acupuncture lady. Very detailed and informative, however she also pointed out the best i could hope for is improvement and it may not even do that. Its also expensive and ongoing. Too expensive if I'm honest

JaquelineR thank you, I have looked in the past but can't remember, I will have a good look through later today.
 
Many years ago I had a bone scan and CT done on a headshaker. it showed nothing apart from more uptake on one side of the bar of the mouth which I think was a result of headshaking against the bit, rather than the cause. It was definitely pollen related but over time it was year round. It was thought that the allergy over time damaged the lining of his nose which is why it was constant. He did tolerate a nosenet but it had to be thick and pinned down with a flash.
I had success with nupafeed, mega dose MSM (20-30g per day), and plenty of salt (possible too much potassium / not enough sodium as a cause of sensitive nerves). Have you tried soaking baileys fibre nuggets into a mash to get supplements in, I've not met a horse that didn't love them.
 
Tidy_rabbit said:
Many years ago I had a bone scan and CT done on a headshaker. it showed nothing apart from more uptake on one side of the bar of the mouth which I think was a result of headshaking against the bit, rather than the cause. It was definitely pollen related but over time it was year round. It was thought that the allergy over time damaged the lining of his nose which is why it was constant. He did tolerate a nosenet but it had to be thick and pinned down with a flash.
I had success with nupafeed, mega dose MSM (20-30g per day), and plenty of salt (possible too much potassium / not enough sodium as a cause of sensitive nerves). Have you tried soaking baileys fibre nuggets into a mash to get supplements in, I've not met a horse that didn't love them.
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I think salt has always been an issue, or a worry for me. I can get at most a half teaspoon hidden in his food before he refuses the whole lot. So many times ive tied to up it really slowly (not kidding almost by the grain) he just won't. Also tried various flavoured electrolytes. For a fat horse he's incredibly fussy. He always has a salt rock but never touches it, I just wash the dust off now and again, pass it on to someone else and buy a new one!
I've not tried Baileys fibre nuggets no, I do have a small smaple bag here though so could easily try it. He's not keen on mash type feeds eithr though :rolleyes:


This all highlights how irritating he is! The few things that are so easy and cheap and help many head shakers- Salt, magnesium and nose nets he will not contemplate!
 
I'm Dun said:
can you mix it with honey or similar and syringe it in?
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I can give it a try yes. I try to avoid regular syringing. I'm happy to shove bute in occasionally that way in an emeragncy but feel mean and don't want them to dread seeing me approach 😆
But yes I will maybe mix up salt, magnesium, honey (which he also dislikes! somone kindly gave me a few jars of their own very local honey to try/ waste on him last year!)
I'll give him a carrot afterwards!
 
No personal experience but a friend with a grade 3 headshaker has had some success with craniosacral therapy & I think she felt it was the only thing that helped him (she tried a lot of stuff & did have CT, endoscopy etc). May be worth a shot if you can find someone local doing it?

Also if memory serves I had another friend with a different horse that I think ended up testing positive for Lymes disease?
 
Boulty said:
No personal experience but a friend with a grade 3 headshaker has had some success with craniosacral therapy & I think she felt it was the only thing that helped him (she tried a lot of stuff & did have CT, endoscopy etc). May be worth a shot if you can find someone local doing it?

Also if memory serves I had another friend with a different horse that I think ended up testing positive for Lymes disease?
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I have been googling for someone near me, I could pop
It on a local equine Fb page and see if anyone has a suggestion.
Any idea how often she had it done, although that’s probably a silly question as they are all so far from the same.
 
poiuytrewq said:
I can give it a try yes. I try to avoid regular syringing. I'm happy to shove bute in occasionally that way in an emeragncy but feel mean and don't want them to dread seeing me approach 😆
But yes I will maybe mix up salt, magnesium, honey (which he also dislikes! somone kindly gave me a few jars of their own very local honey to try/ waste on him last year!)
I'll give him a carrot afterwards!
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Pureed carrot baby food? There must be somehing he likes the taste of.One of mne loved porride oats and treacle mixed together into balls with anitbiotics mixed in
 
I'm Dun said:
Pureed carrot baby food? There must be somehing he likes the taste of.One of mne loved porride oats and treacle mixed together into balls with anitbiotics mixed in
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That may be a good one! He loves and will eat endless carrots, or apples. Porridge and treacle balls sound seriously messy!

He's now got a set of new shoes and a saddle that fits- gone from a medium wide to extra wide!
Sadly, and this has never happened before both farrier and saddle fitter brought up the head shaking and how bad he was. No one has ever noticed it without me mentioning He has twitched a bit- since being home its been really windy but the smoke from the shoeing and wind (?) seemed to set him off quite badly. So thats really discouraging.
 
I have one that has started head shaking this year, and only does it in rain. But can be the tiniest speck of rain. Unfortunately, he does it in the field, so not a good prognosis if I can't find a way to help him (tried salt and nupafeed, nosenet, titanium mask - now onto electro acupuncture).
 
poiuytrewq said:
I have been googling for someone near me, I could pop
It on a local equine Fb page and see if anyone has a suggestion.
Any idea how often she had it done, although that’s probably a silly question as they are all so far from the same.
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Not sure, sorry… I think possibly more frequently at first and then less often when more under control but not sure of exact schedule she had him on
 
Strangely and completely by chance one of his previous owners called in today. She came to say there was a sheep on the road and being the closest farm came to us!
She went out to give him a cuddle and we chatted a tiny bit about the riding issues and I commented that he was now a head shaker to which she replied “oh yes he’s always done that, and had to wear a nose net”
😳 I said I’d tried and it made him worse, apparently the regular ones always made him angry but she had a stiffer one like a bucket that still attached to a nose band but stood slightly away so it didn’t touch his nose. She gave it to the guy who she sold him to and I bought him from. ( who told me he’d never been known to head shake!)
Anyone know what she is talking about? I need to find one. She didn’t think they were made any more but perhaps if I know what I is I could source one?
 
poiuytrewq said:
Strangely and completely by chance one of his previous owners called in today. She came to say there was a sheep on the road and being the closest farm came to us!
She went out to give him a cuddle and we chatted a tiny bit about the riding issues and I commented that he was now a head shaker to which she replied “oh yes he’s always done that, and had to wear a nose net”
😳 I said I’d tried and it made him worse, apparently the regular ones always made him angry but she had a stiffer one like a bucket that still attached to a nose band but stood slightly away so it didn’t touch his nose. She gave it to the guy who she sold him to and I bought him from. ( who told me he’d never been known to head shake!)
Anyone know what she is talking about? I need to find one. She didn’t think they were made any more but perhaps if I know what I is I could source one?
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Is this ‘bucket’ net to go right around his muzzle, as in, over the bit and reins somehow? Never seen one like that.
You might be as well sourcing stiff, tulle netting (think: rockabilly petticoats), and then you could could make up whatever styles you’d like to try.
If he’s such a bad h.shaker, are you sure you want to ride him, tho? Unless you can buckle end / switch off, they can be grim to ride, and even then I’ve seen one kept tripping / misplacing hooves - jerking his whole front end all over the place.
Hope you find a solution!
 
My vet advised me not to CT scan my head banger because he said it was extremely unlikely to find anything and if it did find anything out would be extremely unlikely that it would be able to be treated.
.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Anyone know what she is talking about? I need to find one. She didn’t think they were made any more but perhaps if I know what I is I could source one?
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I remember such a thing as I used to have a head shaker. They weren't popular as not legal for dressage / eventing dressage I'll see if I can find some info.

Have you tried vaseline in the nostrils if nostril vet helped?
 
I do t think it went right round no but it was difficult to get what she meant really, just that it didn’t touch his nose and stood up a bit. I’ve looked at Shakease and they look like they stay away a bit more and I’d be interested to try one .
I think I’ve tried vasaline but will do so again.
I’m not going to CT, it was just an idea. 😔

I’ve never thought of him as a severe or particularly bad head shaker. However I’ve never seen him like this afternoon just stood in the stable like he was.
He’s not doing it in the field thank god.
He has the vet tomorrow anyway so will run it all past her.
I’d like to try some of this again before giving up completely but if he’s not happy or continued as he was today I will stop.
 
Complements of BBP, something like this used to be made by aerborn, a friend used to have one but they've been superseded by the close fitting type. My own headshaker only tolerated the close fitting very fine mesh ones like equilibrium and hated it at first and used to just flip it up without a flash. When he got used to it, it was brilliant, he was unrideable on sunny days without it.


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