Cushings/EMS Ethical question

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snowstormII

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My 12hh companion pony had a long bout of laminitis which started in Feb, no doubt a combination of being overweight and being turned out on frosty grass all winter. I am totally to blame - I have never dealt with laminitis before and his owner told me to leave him out all winter, rugged so he could enjoy himself. During this time she gifted him to me and the learning curve started. As soon as I realised, he was stabled 24/7 and fed soaked hay, lost weight and topline dramatically, as can happen with laminitics. His crest softened but the fat pad over the base of his tail STILL will not budge. I carefully put him out on nearly bare grass for 10 mins a day after he had been sound for a month when in 24/7, and gently increased turnout by 10 mins every other week till we got to 4 hours - he went lame again. So in he came again, 24/7. Eventually came sound again and slowly upped turnout time by 10 mins every other week till he got to 2 hours every day, 22 hours stabled with dry hay, as he needed to gain weight. This was all under my lovely vet's guidance. He was tested for Cushings in April and came back border line - 49 units. Last week he was tested again and came back with a reading of 110 units. So it looks like he definitely is cushingoid, hence all the laminitis. Vet recommended Prascend. She also suggested he more than likely has EMS but would recommend a blood test to confirm. Treatment for that is avoiding all sugar and soaking hay as I have already been doing to manage the illness.

I have limited grazing, enough for 2 equines. He is not able to perform his duty as companion horse to my 15 month old pony, except those 2 hours he is out. That said he is a good boy, not obnoxious in any way, just elderly at 22ish.

My question is this...at what point do people think it is unethical to keep a companion pony going, just so that he can live 24/7 in a stable? He seems happy enough and is not trying to get out, quite resigned to it in fact.

If you have been in this situation what made you decide to make 'that' decision, chosing quality of life over length of life?
 
my mare is 22 and i discovered that she had cushings august 2011, luckily i started on prascend before we had any laminitis and so far she has been lammi free(fingers crossed) and is happily living a normal life out 24/7 in summer and in at night for the winter. i have had to gradually increase the prascend to 3 tablets daily as her acth levels have been difficult to control. however she seems very happy and although i am struggling with the cost i will keep her going if she can have this sort of quality of life. if she does get laminitis which would mean restricted grazing then i have decided to PTS. this is easy to say now and i hope i can be strong if this happens....you may find your chap could have more grazing once the cushings is under control, if not then PTS is an option if you feel he is not enjoying life....good luck
 
This is such a hard thing to have to face. I don't believe long term, never ending long periods of 24/7 stabling is conducive to a horses quality of life especially if the horse finds it stressful.

With these conditions (EMS/Cushings) appearing to become epidemic, I do think liveries need to start providing other grass free/reduced options such as yards, tracks etc.
I also wish more scientific research was going into managing and planting grazing for horses.

It must be heartbreaking to have to choose pts because it's impossible to provide a more suitable environment to keep a horse as healthy and happy as is possible. My heart goes out to everyone in this position and their horses. x
 
A question very close to my heart right now. My 12 yr old TB who's suffered lameness and foot related problems including lami all summer and in hindsight on and off for years has just been diagnosed a few weeks ago.
He is also retired due t other problems and ive made the tough decision to pts- next week.
I chose this option because he's not a great companion being a bully ad having severe separation anxiety but I feel now im totally unable to give him a happy long retirement like he deserves. I think happy retirement would be turned out on loads of grass fat and happy. Obviously the definition of happiness is different for everyone and every horse but my horse has been unhappy.
Saying that the last week he's been his best for the last 8 months!
Its really hard but look at all angles and decide from there.
Hugs xx
 
I knew a pony, a top class PC eventer that went down with laminitis when he was in his late teens. Like your pony it ended up with him having to live more or less full time in the stable. In the end, probably getting on for a year, the owner decided that he had no quality of life, he had been a wonderful pony, winning loads and teaching several children to ride and it was so sad to see him having to stay in off the grass all the time, not being able to gallop about and roll and play with the other horses, so she decided to have him PTS, for his sake, rather than keep him alive because she didn't want to part with him.
 
I was looking after a friends pony while a vet attended him recently. He is suspected as having cushings, I asked what I should advise the owner re turnout and feeding he said ' kill the bloody grass!', literally to make a turnout are with no grass and just provide soaked hay to graze on. I know this isnt realy helpful to you as you wanted a companion pony but there is more alternatives than just being stabled or pts.
 
Check out the facebook page PPID/Cushings/EMS group, andrea may well be able to help you here...sometimes it can take a while for the meds to do their job, that and the right chop ( hi fi molasses free), mag ox ( helps budge those fat pads), supplement (tens supplement), salt and vitamin e tablets and turnout, don't give up just yet....
 
snowstormII said:
My question is this...at what point do people think it is unethical to keep a companion pony going, just so that he can live 24/7 in a stable? He seems happy enough and is not trying to get out, quite resigned to it in fact.

If you have been in this situation what made you decide to make 'that' decision, chosing quality of life over length of life?
Click to expand...


I suspect from reading your whole post that your question is actually 'at what point is it ethical to put down an apparently healthy and happy horse who can't be what you need him to be'

Apologies if I am wrong.

My answer to that question is 'whenever it's right for you'. He will neither know nor care that he was 'deprived' of more life with a slow descent into increasing illness.
 
I would make a outdoor stable bare paddock and put down straw to nibble on. My old mare did not react well to Paracend and lost weight , she is now at a her normal weight, fortunately for me she has only had laminitis when out on loan when she was not dieted. I have decided to let her go this year and she has other problems as well, its hard as I have had her since she was four. I think its harder for you a you have been left by her old owners with this big decision.
 
I have been in pretty much this situation with my horse of a lifetime.
She foundered despite a lot of management cushings was the cause I took the desision to PTS immediatly .
I was already restricting turnout at the limit of what was acceptable to a horse not in work and I was not going to restrict food more which the vet had told me I would have to do .
We spent the weekend playing she had lots of pain relief and she was PTS on the Monday .
I know for that horse it was the right thing I have never regretted it .
If you feel it's the route to take you know the horse best it's your call.
 
My advise would be to try a track if you can....a strip of land along one side or round the outside of your field. Use it through the winter to completely trash it of grass or have it gravelled/hardcored. That way the pony can go out and have his hay out there and still be a companion to your other pony.
Track ideas:
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/paddock-paradise.html

http://poniesathome.wordpress.com/paddock-paradise-track-system/

http://successful-natural-horsecare.com/natural-living/paddock-paradise-grazing/
 
Hi op, I have been in your situation, my pony that I had since childhood had cushings/lami/ems. I owed it to her to give her as good a life as possible. I kept her out with 2 others, in a small coral overnight and out during the day- but once she couldn't enjoy day turn out I made the decision as smi personally wasn't going to have her kept in a stable as she didn't enjoy it- the coral option is good as it could be out with your pony keeping it company no?

I think it's something only you will know, but if the pony realistically can't be turned out and carry out natural behaviours and do its job as nanny then I would think hard about its future.
 
I have to manage EMS, rather than Cushings, but if I had to stable 24/7, I think that would decide it for me. I manage Henry with a combination of muzzle (slightly modified so the hole is a little bigger) and restricted grazing. When the grass is flushing and it's too short for a muzzle, I put out soaked haylage (he coughs on hay) and they happily eat that through the muzzles. Earlier this year I had to muzzle 24 hours a day,with an hour or two break each day. The only disadvantage is that they can't yawn, which I hate. They're each proved they can groom/bite itchy bits wearing them. I do hate muzzles, but they're significantly better than stabling IMO, as they prevent less behaviours and the pony is still moving around.
 
cptrayes said:
I suspect from reading your whole post that your question is actually 'at what point is it ethical to put down an apparently healthy and happy horse who can't be what you need him to be'

Apologies if I am wrong.

My answer to that question is 'whenever it's right for you'. He will neither know nor care that he was 'deprived' of more life with a slow descent into increasing illness.
Click to expand...

Agree. I can absolutey understand why people want to keep their beloved horses alive as long as possible, but personally, I would ask myself the question "Am I keeping this animal going for himself, or for me". A horse who is kept "happy and healthy" on a drug regime and with severely limited turnout and a draconian management regime is not a healthy horse (and quite possibly not a happy one either - it was telling that OP said "resigned"), even if the management makes it appear so. The way I see it, a horse's idea of a happy retirement is one where he/she can live a life without constraints, grazing in a herd, being a horse, and maintained in a happy healthy state without too much drug intervention. If mine weren't able to live like that, I would PTS, but that is just my personal feeling, and I wouldn't condemn anyone with different ideas, unless the horse was obviously suffering.
 
I had my 8 y/o pts because of Cushings. She couldn't tolerate any grazing at all without laminitis, so faced with a choice of permanent stabling or turnout out in a sand paddock and a lifetime of restricted diet I chose to say goodbye.

IMO it would have been no life for her.
 
The other downside of having to stable these horses is lack of movement/exercize.
Being able to move is so important for hoof circulation, metabolism etc. as part of prevention of laminitis. Not to mention the social aspects.
 
I decided sometime ago that my retired horse would not do box rest anymore, so when he became laminitic I decided that was it for him - however he tested positive for cushings and as a last resort I tried the drug route.

The prascend was an amazing drug for him. He now lives out 24/7 and looks after the other horses. If he starts becoming laminitic again, then I will probably take the horrid decision.

So in response, I would try the prascend, you know the ponies nature is great and it can do a good job of being a companion. IME you will know within a couple of weeks whether it is going to be a good option for him (I just give him a table a day in a small handful of quiet mix, no hassle). The winter is coming so if you leave that rug OFF then the weight should start to drop off him anyway and give him a really good chance to have a few more years of life.

Good luck.
 
I have 2 horses with Cushings.
1 is older & retired, the other is a 7yo who is a slightly more complex/concerning case.

However, for both, the decision has been made that if it gets to the point whereby they cannot be turned out on grass and interact with other horses then there is no quality of life and they would be PTS.
 
my friend has a pony of similar age, who is cushings and lami, she has been battling it for years. this time last year she was mostly ok, but only if kept in and on soaked hay, but she was very flat, no spark in her eyes, despite her cushings technically being under control and not beings in pain. her owner was preparing to PTS. this was mostly we think because she was lonely, she didn't call out or box walk, she had just given up. as all the other horses could live out. she now has a wood chip pen to give her more space to walk around in, but the most amazing difference has been finding her a friend! she now had a Shetland companion, the spring is back in her step and she is doing brilliantly. but realistically you probably cant do that. it does cost her lots of money to basically keep 2 ponies as pets, as well as the expensive medication.

in your case i must admit i would think PTS, as they are old and in the long run are not living a happy life with no company, even if they seem OK in themselves. i respect you trying so hard, but box rest is no life.
 
We are lucky to have a hardcore turnout area which we use in winter, so would be able to use that should anything end up EMS/cushings type. However, although it would mean that the horse was able to wander about and wouldn't have to be stabled, it would mean that in summer the horse would be separated from the other horses, and may lead to the horse feeling sad as not part of the herd. So I would watch the horse and if it came to a point that it wasn't happy and was missing the herd then I would consider PTS. Its all about quality of life rather than keeping the horse alive. It must be hard when the pony was meant to be a companion for your horse (Not judging you at all OP, but it does make one think that a companion should be a similar type of horse that needs similar conditions). I would try the drugs and see what happens, then make a decision. We had a pony that got lami twice in winter that turned out to have EMS. Winter weather may well flag up the issues again..
 
a terrible situation to be in and totally dependent on facilities and the type/nature of horse.
Mine has lived off grass since he was 7 (now 15) He is yarded and fortunately kept at home. He can interact with others over the gates, groom over stable doors and sometimes I put a horse in with him for company. He is exercised daily 2.5 hours a day, 7 days a week. If the weather is just so bad he still gets an hour round the block at a walk as a minimum or I notice deterioration.
He is only ever shut in a stable for short periods for my convenience and I don't think it would be fair if stabling was the only option.
Diet is not too much of a problem being mainly hay. He has learnt to adapt to his lifestyle and appears quite happy. He much prefers people to other horses.
I never considered PTS but adapted everything around him to give him a good life. A different life perhaps than some horses but he enjoys it.
I take him to the field for a roll. Immediately he is back on his feet he comes back to me and wants to come back into his yard.
Managed that way and with prascend he is a lovely little riding horse.
 
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