cushings

hezza1

hezza1

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I'm sure my old tb mare has it though not had her blood tested. She seems happy enough but does get hot and itchy her coat is awful and she has some small sore areas which i am putting cream on, now i know there are drugs the vet can give me but I'm not sure if i want to go down that route as i know they wont cure her i am thinking maybe i should try some herbal remedies to keep her comfortable when i feel she needs it ,what do you think ?
 
i have ne experience of the heral remedies...but if her coat is bad and she gets hot and itchy how about clipping her? it may help
 
I have a little chap who has recently been diagnosed.

He's on the tablets and has been clipped to make him more comfortable. He is so much happier now than he was.

I've also started him on Hilton Herbs Cush X but it's too soon to tell if that's having an impact.

I would get your mare blood tested to find out for sure, then decide, based on how advanced she is , on what to do for the best.

First step would be to get her coat more comfortable though as she's only going to get itchier as the temperature warms up.

Hope this helps!
 
I would definitely clip her to make her more comfortable. Is she showing any other signs of Cushings, e.g. fat pads over eyes, crest, tail, muscle wastage, pot belly, excessive drinking and urination. My pony has Cushings and tbh her coat although woolly is not long and curly as some typical Cushings, it was the other symptoms that alerted me. She is on Pergolide and although it of course hasn't cured her it has considerably improved her symptoms. Perhaps if the herbal remedies suggested don't help much you should then ask your vet for blood tests. Hopefully she is just itchy from her coat and you will see an improvement after clipping her.
 
Hi,
Clipping her is step one, especially if it is making her uncomforatble, then just rug her up to keep her warm (if you think she needs it)

Herbal remedies have not been proven to provide any improvement in the horses state or state of mind...... more often than not it has been considered that they are more of a placebo effect on the owner rather than the horse (not saying I agree, just what I found from my research)

However, Pergolide (the main drug given) is, although as you say not a cure, the best thing available at the moment for Cushing's horses. It will minimise these symptoms you are saying you have noticed, including the hair coat, it will shed more normally etc so she will be more comfortable and your clipping will be reduced! And also her risks of laminitis etc will all reduce as a result....

If you are concerned about Cushing's I would defo recommend a blood test to say most likely yes or most likely no (no blood test is 100% for cushings, but dexamethasone suppression test is the gold standard, just for future reference) and then decide, if yes, where to go from there!

If you want any other help, or info or anything feel free to PM me
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I think it was the dexamethasone suppression test my pony had, she had bloods taken over a couple of days after injecting with something
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Sorry it was a long time ago can't remember details,
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ye dex suppression they get a dose of dex and a healthy horse will within 12-24 hours be able to supress the corticosteroid levels back to normal......
a cushings horse is unable to do this so the post 12-24 hour blood test will be still above the norm for corticosteroid levels a.k.a. diagnostic of cushings! (in theory, its about 98-99% accruate, so still some false positives occasionally, but these are rare!)
 
no worries happy to help!
I finally have an area I feel really quite confident in discussing!!! guess it wasnt a number of months of my life wasted! hehe
 
Nope I am a third year at notts, and ye did my research project on Cushings in horses, and what determines owners decisions regarding treatment (or not) of this disease

was suprisingly interesting
 
My daughter was planning on doing same (she's at Liverpool) but is now doing something else to do with metabolism (bad mother not properly paying attention).
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lol don't worry it annoyed me coz my mum paid WAY too much attention and kept grilling me on what was going on with my project etc, and how certain bits weren't making sense I was like OMG! Are you a vet?! NO!!! lol
but I guess its good she cares!

It was interesting, what year is your daughter in?
 
3rd year too. She comes on the forum (Murphy88), but is on EMS placement at the mo, otherwise I could have asked her the technical quesitons re dex tests etc. LOL at your Mum, H sent me one of her lengthy reports and asked me to read it through, spell check etc, it was liking reading a foreign language, way over the top of my head
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Ye that was what happened to my mum at first, which annoyed her so much she went away did her own research then told me how wrong and right I was about different bits its like ERgh! darn your wanting to know everything! let me be smarter than you for once! hehe

Ahh I wanna do my EMS placements at the minute, but I cant cause I have my first lot of finals straight after easter (so all revision time now!)
 
She's revising as well, mucho stress in our household. I let her be smarter than me on most things but she still phones me and asks questions re dogs, sometimes you just can't beat experience
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To disagree with Lucy
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I have found that Agnus Castus/Vitex/Chasteberry - the same herb by different names to be extremely helpful in resolving the health problems my cushings horse had. I put him on Agnus Castus on January 1st this year....and
Within 3 weeks of starting the herb (15mg per day) he was drinking LOTS less, the swollen sheath had gone down, he was not sweating in funny patches, he did not have oedema, an he had a a lot more energy. Its slso used to regulate the cycles of women with polycystic ovarian syndrome, so does have a clinically recognised effect on hormones.

Lucy I would be really interested in reading your dissertation though - I am very interested in cushings/ems!

Hilton Herbs Cush-X was fab, but sooo expensive (£23 per tub) so now I buy the straight herb from natural horse supplies on ebay. The Cush-X did have other herbs that I think helped but the cost of the supplement was rising and I had to cut costs somewhere!
Cassandra
 
Cassandra, no worries, used to people disagreeing with me! hehe

Your right about the homeopathic drugs being related to polycystic ovarian syndrome in women, however, because this causes a hormone imbalance, similar to Cushings, this is the main link between the use of it in Cushings horses!
I am not saying it DOESN'T work, as some people think it does for their horses, and maybe it does, I think some people want it to work, use it and say it works to make themselves happier, and other its just doesn't work....
there isnt any scientific evidence to base homeopathic remedies as equally useful treatments for cushing's as pergolide etc (however not saying Dont use it, just saying the medicines in 99% of cases work better!)

Cassandra, I will be more than happy to provide a copy of the dissi for you read, hoping to get it published actually so if it does, will inform you where and when etc
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unfortunatly I am not allowed to disclose it until I get my results and feedback back from uni (which is not until after easter I am afraid) but as soon as I know, I will let you know! Will prob post a topic on here asking if anyone would like to see it!
 
A couple of years ago there was a TV programme (Horizon I think) about homeopathy, and one vet was featured who had decided to try homeopathy on Cushings cases in his practice. instead of pergolide, and was somewhat surprised to find that the improvement statistics were every bit as good as with pergolide. I certainly know people who have had very good results with Agnus Castus and nothing else. Personally, I have had very excellent results with homeopathy on myself (for insect stings and bites - I swell up massively) and on my horse who is on other conventional drugs which mean she can't have many drugs due to interactions. I'm a trained scientist, and I don't know how it works, but it does for me, so I don't knock it.
 
Im not knocking it, just saying what I found out!!

I have stated that it might work for some people!
And to be a homeopath to treat animals you have to be a vet to begin with! (you cannot have a homeopath without a veterinary degree treating your animals!) so if a vet opts to choose homeopathy then they probably believe there is a good reason for it!

Each to their own! I was jsut stating that there has been scientifically proven facts that pergolide is the best medication to treat pergolide....

jsut trying to help!
 
To the OP - can't really add anything to what Lucy and MM have said, but I'll add another vote for pergolide.

I'll have to keep an eye out for your published dissertation Lucy, will be very interesting! Mine is now on insulin resistance in obese ponies (nice to know my Mum was paying attention
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) - hopefully might get it published if the results come out ok, although my supervisor thas started talking about me presenting my results at the BEVA conference, which is a bit scary!!
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Interestingly enough, in a lecture the other day the equine vet teaching us basically said at the start that anyone interested in homeopathy might as well leave the course now, as the vet degree and homeopathy just don't mix (got the impression he's not a big fan of alternative medicine!), and that in some european countries vets are struck off for practicing homeopathy!
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wow! didnt know about being struck off!
I personally dont vote homeopathy.... but thats my personal opinion! Wudnt enforce it on anyone else!

Ahh your topic sounds interesting, ye mine was a case of publish if comes back ok! (which it did, thank god!)
Il show you mine if you show me yours!
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hehe

Pergolide rules!
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(in terms of cushings treatment anyway!)
 
Thanks guys you have been a huge help and given me lots to think about. It really is great to know there are so many knowledgeable people on here to ask for help and reassurance
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Hi there
Yes, I would be interested in reading your dissertation Lucy so makesure you let us all know when its published
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Agnus Castus is not a homeopathic remedy though - its herbal. I feed the herbal product as whole berries, but have purchased it as a powder. Its also available as a tincture if the horse is a fussy feeder.

Homeopathy is not something I have any knowledge of but I have a reasonable lay persons knowledge of the application of herbal remedies - which clearly do have an effect on the body, both equine and human. Cannabis, afterall is a herb and I dont think theres any debate about its effect on the human body... willow is the basis for pain relief in aspirin, peppermint a doctor recommended treatment for IBS etc etc;)

homeopathy Im not so sure of. Im never convinced about it working but would try it if desperate and if vetinary medicine was failing, I guess.

Have you had a look at the Laminitis Clinic info about their Vitex/Agnus Castus trial on cushings horses? I understand that its a properly conducted clinical trial? Hilton Herbs founder Hilary Self also conducted a clinical trial into Agnus Castus/Vitex but I think her trial group was only 50 cushings horses.

I think herbal remedies can be a good place to start in certain conditions if your vet is in agreement. My vet suggested starting with Vitex, and its worked for both my cushings horses. I would not hesitate to go straight to the vet drugs if my horse was suffering, or really struggling though! Both mine were just starting to show symptoms when I started them on vitex. If they had been ill, or laminetic I would have gone straight to the "hard stuff".

Cassandra
 
Hi, no my old mare is not struggling or suffering in anyway if she was i would be straight on the phone to the vet.I think i will give Vitex a go and see how she does . the only real sign she has at the moment is her coat and her skin .
 
Yes, Cassandra is correct - Vitex agnus castus is simply a herbal medicine which is also a dopamine agonist - so very similar in action to Pergolide. Apart from the Laminitis clinic study there is a vast amount of supportive field data, both from clinical signs and bloodwork.

The Dex suppression test is not without risk, and is recommended against by people like the Laminitis Clinic/Trust. It is also becoming clear that the original assessment of it's accuracy was based on very advanced Cushing's cases, and that it is far less reliable with earlier cases, producing both false negatives and false positives (eg due to seasonal factors).

I recommend the kind of endogenous ACTH/Glucose/Insulin panels that are recommended by Liphook and the Laminitis Trust as they are entirely without risk, and provide useful data for assessing future management - but no test is truly reliable as yet.

Jackie JA Taylor
 
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