Persephone
Well-Known Member
It just means that there were no visible symptoms.
Cushings
- Thread starter Puppy
- Start date
kellyeaton
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
It just means that there were no visible symptoms.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh right i see. did your horse every get lammi then?
It just means that there were no visible symptoms.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh right i see. did your horse every get lammi then?
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
There's a period of time where Cushing's is 'latent' and although no sypmtoms are apparent, it is beginning to establish its effect - I think it's called peripheral Cushing's - or is that EMS which is called peripheral Cushing's? I think there isn't much to separate the two and I'm betting most sufferers have both conditions. Anyway, I don't think they are one day OK then the following day they have Cushing's. It has to be a gradual slide. It does have flare-ups and you may only see the laminitis as the troublesome and major factor affecting quality of life. This can certainly be periodic. it is catching it quick enough for it to be a few weeks as opposed to months of a job.
Can someone answer my previous question about laminitis and if the standard and widely practised 'lockdown' treatment should be used whatever the cause of the disease?
Can someone answer my previous question about laminitis and if the standard and widely practised 'lockdown' treatment should be used whatever the cause of the disease?
Puppy
Well-Known Member
Oh I'm sorry guys, I didn't realise this thread was still going
Thank you very much all of you for your feedback and advise
Be is due to go to the vet hospital tomorrow (roads and weather permitting!
) so I'm going to talk it over with my vet then, and book them to come out and see Star as soon as they are open after Christmas.
Puppy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Yes it was a shocker. Nobody could quite believe it
Unfortunately I had to make the decision to PTS when she was 8. There was just no way of controlling the laminitis AND giving her a decent quality of life.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it was a shocker. Nobody could quite believe it
Unfortunately I had to make the decision to PTS when she was 8. There was just no way of controlling the laminitis AND giving her a decent quality of life.
[/ QUOTE ]
Puppy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I did wonder one thing - is the routine for a suspected laminitic always the same, regardless of the cause - you know what I mean - nsaids, ACP (in some cases) soaked hay, diet entirely devoid of sugars and carbs, strict box rest on deep shavings, etc?
[/ QUOTE ]
I could not keep Star like that. Absolutely not. Kept in she gets horribly stiff, grumpy, drops condition, won't eat forage, cribs constantly and is a colic risk. I couldn't put her though that.... She would have to be pts
I did wonder one thing - is the routine for a suspected laminitic always the same, regardless of the cause - you know what I mean - nsaids, ACP (in some cases) soaked hay, diet entirely devoid of sugars and carbs, strict box rest on deep shavings, etc?
[/ QUOTE ]
Persephone
Well-Known Member
Yes she did Babybells, very badly indeed. However as she was so young and had no other Cushings symptoms she was treated as standard, grass induced Laminitis.
Persephone
Well-Known Member
Yes I had to use the "lockdown method" My mare had to have haylage so had the Blue Ryegrass one, no carrots, nothing with a hint of mollasses. A foot deep shavings bed, x rays and heartbars werre fitted. ACP and Bute. IV painkillers on the first day.
She had the odd sugar free polo though
She had the odd sugar free polo though
Persephone
Well-Known Member
Try not to panic over it Puppy. Not all cushings horses get laminitis. My other pony got it as she got older, but never had a whiff of laminitis. I just needed to have a permanently sharpened set of blades
Holly was extremely tolerant all through her treatment. We were gradually building her turnout up, on ideal grazing. She went down with it again when we got her up to two hours.
That was the point when I decided to put her down. Although tolerating the regime, she wasn't her old self, and didn't feel I could inflict that lifestyle on her for possibly the next 20 years.
I had her from 5 months old, and she had changed. Not happy, always hungry and so bored.
We made sure she had the best last day ever, vet gave her IV painkillers in the morning of last the day, she was turned out in a paddock with my other mare who was her pair bond for the whole day, with a huge pile of haylage on the floor too. She couldn't believe her eyes
I just went away and left them to it. I know she was happy that day.
It was the hardest decision I ever had to make, but I know it was right. I would do the same thing again.
Holly was extremely tolerant all through her treatment. We were gradually building her turnout up, on ideal grazing. She went down with it again when we got her up to two hours.
That was the point when I decided to put her down. Although tolerating the regime, she wasn't her old self, and didn't feel I could inflict that lifestyle on her for possibly the next 20 years.
I had her from 5 months old, and she had changed. Not happy, always hungry and so bored.
We made sure she had the best last day ever, vet gave her IV painkillers in the morning of last the day, she was turned out in a paddock with my other mare who was her pair bond for the whole day, with a huge pile of haylage on the floor too. She couldn't believe her eyes
It was the hardest decision I ever had to make, but I know it was right. I would do the same thing again.
Puppy
Well-Known Member
Thanks P. Am I naive to think that because of Star's type, she may not be at such a great risk of lami as smaller cushings horses/ponies?
We love Star to pieces and owe her so much for all the years of happiness she's given us, so money is not an issue with treatment, but I can't put her through excessive stabling, there's nothing she hates more
Re. the clipping. When I clip Star she actually doesn't grow her coat back quickly, far from it, but as you can see, she does get a very thick coat. Is that a good thing? (The coat growing slowly)
H xx
We love Star to pieces and owe her so much for all the years of happiness she's given us, so money is not an issue with treatment, but I can't put her through excessive stabling, there's nothing she hates more
Re. the clipping. When I clip Star she actually doesn't grow her coat back quickly, far from it, but as you can see, she does get a very thick coat. Is that a good thing? (The coat growing slowly)
H xx
Persephone
Well-Known Member
I don't know about Star's type (WB x TB?). I was under the impression that anything with cushings was at increased risk, but whether it is increased risk for type or not I don't know.
My 30 year old who had Cushings was 3/4 arab x NF and as I say she didn't get it, although you would think she would have been a high risk.
You know your horse best, if the worst happens and she can't cope with the treatment, you will know what to do for the best. When you know and love your horse, you know what is best for them.
I guess I clipped Sandy every month or so, I don't know if the speed of coat growth is important though.
Here is my little lady at 30. As you can see she didn't get the dipped back or muscle loss, she was just very fluffy
She died about 6 weeks after this picture was taken of a TIA, very suddenly, we hacked out the day before and the day it happened I had planned to clip her. So she had 10 years of unmedicated cushings with no laminitis or other symptoms. She was just wet in her stable and a fussy eater.
I think that should be quite encouraging to everyone who has a horse with this condition.
My 30 year old who had Cushings was 3/4 arab x NF and as I say she didn't get it, although you would think she would have been a high risk.
You know your horse best, if the worst happens and she can't cope with the treatment, you will know what to do for the best. When you know and love your horse, you know what is best for them.
I guess I clipped Sandy every month or so, I don't know if the speed of coat growth is important though.
Here is my little lady at 30. As you can see she didn't get the dipped back or muscle loss, she was just very fluffy
She died about 6 weeks after this picture was taken of a TIA, very suddenly, we hacked out the day before and the day it happened I had planned to clip her. So she had 10 years of unmedicated cushings with no laminitis or other symptoms. She was just wet in her stable and a fussy eater.
I think that should be quite encouraging to everyone who has a horse with this condition.
Pasha
Well-Known Member
Yes the standard 'lockdown' should be observed regardless of the cause, as with laminitis, regardless of the cause, there will be damage (inflammation, tearing and sometimes completely dying) to the laminae which supports the pedal bone. If the horse is allowed to move about, or the cause of the laminitis is not immediately addressed, the pedal bone can rotate beyond repair, which is why box rest and a deep shavings bed to support the foot is recommended.
Of course each individual case is completely different and you have to decide what is best for you and your horse. The length of time in the box is all dependent upon the damage to the laminae and how quick it stabilises!
For example, my Cushings boy was in for 8 months and had 2 severe attacks of Lami during that time even though he was on a strict Lami diet - this was because the cause 'Cushings' wasn't under control with Pergolide. Until that was sorted out, he was on a downward spiral and we nearly lost him!
He is still managed on a Lami diet, but goes in the field (old meadow pasture and very short) all day every day and is absolutely fine with this routine.
My other boy had classic grass Lami and was sound after being off grass for 2 days. He is on the same diet and turnout as my Cushings boy, as the grass that caused the Lami was ryegrass (we were on an old dairy farm) and he has no metabolic issues.
During the time they had Lami I was very strict about 12 hour soaked hay and no carrotts etc as it is essential to get them stable ASAP to minimise damage.
Strangely enough the Grass Lami one had worse rotation than the Cushings one, however, as his was food related and not metabolic, he had very thick soles so coped very well.
Now they have a carrott in their feed when I have them, sometimes apples, but I do make sure they have only meadow hay and keep them off the forst
Of course each individual case is completely different and you have to decide what is best for you and your horse. The length of time in the box is all dependent upon the damage to the laminae and how quick it stabilises!
For example, my Cushings boy was in for 8 months and had 2 severe attacks of Lami during that time even though he was on a strict Lami diet - this was because the cause 'Cushings' wasn't under control with Pergolide. Until that was sorted out, he was on a downward spiral and we nearly lost him!
He is still managed on a Lami diet, but goes in the field (old meadow pasture and very short) all day every day and is absolutely fine with this routine.
My other boy had classic grass Lami and was sound after being off grass for 2 days. He is on the same diet and turnout as my Cushings boy, as the grass that caused the Lami was ryegrass (we were on an old dairy farm) and he has no metabolic issues.
During the time they had Lami I was very strict about 12 hour soaked hay and no carrotts etc as it is essential to get them stable ASAP to minimise damage.
Strangely enough the Grass Lami one had worse rotation than the Cushings one, however, as his was food related and not metabolic, he had very thick soles so coped very well.
Now they have a carrott in their feed when I have them, sometimes apples, but I do make sure they have only meadow hay and keep them off the forst
Lucy_Nottingham
Well-Known Member
Yup, pasha has pretty much got it!
If you horse has cushings but has not had lami id do a milder lami lockdown (as in terms of diet, turn out paddock etc)
If your horse has had many episodes of lami and is now "diagnosed" as cushingoid id say whack em on pergolide and a lami approach to management etc.
If you don#t like lami lockdown so of approach (as I know many dont) giving them a "senior" style diet is often beneficial as well, just obviously not as rigorous as a lami style management. So low sugars (really as minimal as possible in cushings horses!) etc and just careful management in terms of turn out etc should be fine/beneficial!
Just please remember the lower sugar levels are REALLY important in both lami horses and cushings horses! Other aspects of feed should be monitored but its the sugar levels that can cause the real problems! (e.g. sugar beets etc)
Hope this helps some?
If you horse has cushings but has not had lami id do a milder lami lockdown (as in terms of diet, turn out paddock etc)
If your horse has had many episodes of lami and is now "diagnosed" as cushingoid id say whack em on pergolide and a lami approach to management etc.
If you don#t like lami lockdown so of approach (as I know many dont) giving them a "senior" style diet is often beneficial as well, just obviously not as rigorous as a lami style management. So low sugars (really as minimal as possible in cushings horses!) etc and just careful management in terms of turn out etc should be fine/beneficial!
Just please remember the lower sugar levels are REALLY important in both lami horses and cushings horses! Other aspects of feed should be monitored but its the sugar levels that can cause the real problems! (e.g. sugar beets etc)
Hope this helps some?
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
Yes, thank you. It's what I thought and just wanted to get my facts totally straight before making any 'suggestions' to the friend whose pony has just come down with (suspected) Cushing's laminitis.
kellyeaton
Well-Known Member
Whats the difference between cushings and cushingoids? My girl had one bout of lammi that was bought on buy cushings she is now on pergolide and everyone is on about this lock down what lock down should she be on? Thanksx
Eaglestone
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Whats the difference between cushings and cushingoids? My girl had one bout of lammi that was bought on buy cushings she is now on pergolide and everyone is on about this lock down what lock down should she be on? Thanksx
[/ QUOTE ]
They do not relate to any different condition, basically it is just a way of expressing the term.
Lock down, is basically removing them from the source which is causing a bout of Laminitis ie no grass or sugary foods, such as Carrots or Apples and only food which has fibre ie Hay, High Fibre Nuts, Happy Hoof or the like .....
Hope this helps, however I am sure others will correct or clarify my translation.
Hope you girlie is doing well?
Whats the difference between cushings and cushingoids? My girl had one bout of lammi that was bought on buy cushings she is now on pergolide and everyone is on about this lock down what lock down should she be on? Thanksx
[/ QUOTE ]
They do not relate to any different condition, basically it is just a way of expressing the term.
Lock down, is basically removing them from the source which is causing a bout of Laminitis ie no grass or sugary foods, such as Carrots or Apples and only food which has fibre ie Hay, High Fibre Nuts, Happy Hoof or the like .....
Hope this helps, however I am sure others will correct or clarify my translation.
Hope you girlie is doing well?
Eaglestone
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
And this pony also has had a large sheath for some considerable while. I wonder if it is an early indicator?
<font color="purple"> Motor has always had a large sheath, however it has become more prominent as he has got older
</font>
I'm glad I'm out of it TBH, it wore me to a frazzle. I do hope I can be of some help to others, though - even if it's just the odd pointer and encouragement to go on.
<font color="purple">You still continue to help me, even now
</font>
I did wonder one thing - is the routine for a suspected laminitic always the same, regardless of the cause - you know what I mean - nsaids, ACP (in some cases) soaked hay, diet entirely devoid of sugars and carbs, strict box rest on deep shavings, etc?
<font color="purple"> I tend to wonder this BE, however I think we have both proved this technique, as we have both kept known Cushings ponies, at very high risk of a further bout of Laminitis, for many years successfully
</font>
Friend seems to think haylage and carrots are OK for the pony, albeit in lower quantities and seems a little reluctant to go into 'lockdown' and zero tolerance regarding sugars, whereas on Yahoo's 'met.horse', there are obsessed with the dietary aspect (and rightly so IMO).
<font color="purple"> When Motor was first diagnosed in 2005 the Vet said he could have as many Carrots as he liked, so he did
too embarrassed to say how many
.... then after a while the same Vet said NONE
.... Motor even came through the bout of Laminitis on this high 'dosage' of Carrots.
I know that one of Motor's highlights of his day is the delving into his bowl of High Fibre Nuts and Happy Hoof and the joy of finding loads of Carrots and the odd apple. However as you know he is not allowed hardly any grass, but is very content with his routine, and is no trouble at all
** A disclaimer .... Please note that this is not a recommendation though
**
I am sure that each horse, is 'more' or 'less' tolerant to a different level of 'sugars' and that we tend to play Russian Roulette with them .... so basically we find out, given time, what we can 'get away' with
Since coming in at night for the Winter, he has cheekily been determinedly 'asking' for MORE carrots as I leave for the night
.... I may start to nickname him Oliver Twist </font> ..........
Mots looks grand in that pic
<font color="purple"> Thank you, however I have never liked that pic, as he is standing odd and is <font color="orange">ORANGE </font> ... but it is the best one to show his sheath off, that I could find </font>
[/ QUOTE ]
PS ... For anyone who thinks that they cannot stay out 24/7 then I would just like to add that Motor has his own little grassless paddock, with a Field Shelter and is the happiest most content little horse you could ever meet .... he spent the 6 months of Summer out there, with his mate adjacent ..... something that 4 years ago, I thought had been taken away from me forever
And this pony also has had a large sheath for some considerable while. I wonder if it is an early indicator?
<font color="purple"> Motor has always had a large sheath, however it has become more prominent as he has got older
I'm glad I'm out of it TBH, it wore me to a frazzle. I do hope I can be of some help to others, though - even if it's just the odd pointer and encouragement to go on.
<font color="purple">You still continue to help me, even now
I did wonder one thing - is the routine for a suspected laminitic always the same, regardless of the cause - you know what I mean - nsaids, ACP (in some cases) soaked hay, diet entirely devoid of sugars and carbs, strict box rest on deep shavings, etc?
<font color="purple"> I tend to wonder this BE, however I think we have both proved this technique, as we have both kept known Cushings ponies, at very high risk of a further bout of Laminitis, for many years successfully
Friend seems to think haylage and carrots are OK for the pony, albeit in lower quantities and seems a little reluctant to go into 'lockdown' and zero tolerance regarding sugars, whereas on Yahoo's 'met.horse', there are obsessed with the dietary aspect (and rightly so IMO).
<font color="purple"> When Motor was first diagnosed in 2005 the Vet said he could have as many Carrots as he liked, so he did
I know that one of Motor's highlights of his day is the delving into his bowl of High Fibre Nuts and Happy Hoof and the joy of finding loads of Carrots and the odd apple. However as you know he is not allowed hardly any grass, but is very content with his routine, and is no trouble at all
** A disclaimer .... Please note that this is not a recommendation though
I am sure that each horse, is 'more' or 'less' tolerant to a different level of 'sugars' and that we tend to play Russian Roulette with them .... so basically we find out, given time, what we can 'get away' with
Since coming in at night for the Winter, he has cheekily been determinedly 'asking' for MORE carrots as I leave for the night
Mots looks grand in that pic
<font color="purple"> Thank you, however I have never liked that pic, as he is standing odd and is <font color="orange">ORANGE </font> ... but it is the best one to show his sheath off, that I could find </font>
[/ QUOTE ]
PS ... For anyone who thinks that they cannot stay out 24/7 then I would just like to add that Motor has his own little grassless paddock, with a Field Shelter and is the happiest most content little horse you could ever meet .... he spent the 6 months of Summer out there, with his mate adjacent ..... something that 4 years ago, I thought had been taken away from me forever