Cut as hay or leave as grass ??

And as i understand it, laminitus has variations. Some cases are due to sugar/insulin type digestive problems.

Yes, i have seen cases in fat, un exercised ponies but i have also seen 16hh tb's and skinny/fit ponies suffer too. Grass management is paramount to good horse health and having a field of one type of grass looking like a bowling green is not the type of thing that is good for horses who would normally choose all sorts of plants to eat.
 
giveitago said:
Even the h&h forum is deteriorating into a slagging match.

Fyi evelyn, my family are argricultural farmers for the past century. When cutting Meadow hay it is best to have some seed fall to re-seed the field for next year. Have the animals dung all over it during the winter, harrow it in early spring and start again. It has long been the natural way of managing pasture. Horses, especially mine, do not need the seeds as a food value over the winter. They need good quality forage provided in hay to supplement the grass and keep their digestion moving. Rye grasses that are popular now are well known to be 'rocket fuel' for horses due to the high value. I prefer to feed something less calorific and therefore prefer ad lib meadow when required.

Straw is the term used for the waste stalk from crops such as barley, wheat and oats.

We are due to cut in a fortnight, dependent on weather as the grass is just turning colour. I am hoping for 800 bales off ten acres. It may be slightly less as we would normally be looking at the first week of july to cut.


Fingers x.
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I guess it depends what you want from your hay - I want food for my horses in winter months - not just fibre - I have a Clyde and clydie crosses - I don't hard feed them so I expect their hay to give them nutrients. I run my horses on 5 acres, and the grass stays long year round, in winter they graze on 'hay on the stalk' and winter well. In really cold spells they get good quality meadow hay.
I too am from a farming background though not in my fathers generation - I spent most of my life sneaking off to a friends family farm. They make the best hay I've ever seen - they make it to feed their beef cattle through winter. The crop was cut just as the seed heads formed, dried quickly and baled as soon as dry - it never packed into slices, as soon as you cut the string the slices would fall apart with a whisper. Hay was a beautiful soft smokey green colour and smelled wonderful- I've rarely ever seen better hay.

TBH I agree with Mike - grass stalks without seeds are just grass straw! The seed stalk dies after dropping the seeds and goes brown and has no nutritional value.
 
giveitago said:
And as i understand it, laminitus has variations. Some cases are due to sugar/insulin type digestive problems.
Click to expand...

And why did this crop up? - it's somethng that has happened since the advent of processed feeds in the 70's - it is a poor management disease - don't feed processed feeds.

I've looked after hundreds of horses over the past 40+ years and never had a case of laminitis - I don't feed processed feeds at all. Straight oats or barley, meadow chaff, linseed and sugaarbeet.

However I have seen the effects that processed feeds have on some horses, turning lovely well mannered horses into monsters that their young riders can no longer manage.

It really isn't neccesary to hard feed to the extent that people do these days. But so many people are brain washed into believing that they MUST feed their horse hard feed, soak hay, strip graze. What they do is subject their horse to even more of an un-natural way of life. Horses need to be able to exercise themselves - hoon around the paddock and lark about - even my Clydie has a hoon at dusk - albeit a slow hoon.

The horse world would be far better off if the feed companies closed the factories and went back to selling the basics.
 
..and the stabling routines where they all stand still for hours on end.

I agree,self bred horses have never suffered, its only the ones that have come from somewhere else that we seem to have to keep an eye on.

I havent fed the horses anything since feb, havent needed to, but we have 20 acres on clay so still have plenty in the field.

Back to hay, if anyones interested, Thorogoods over inessex do really nice hay but you'll have to order quick as they sell out fast!
 
I would definatley get it cut about now, the grass will be very poor otherwise. The key way to get it to grow well is to cut it or graze it (with cows/sheep)
The best thing to do if you really dont want to keep the hay is contact your local farmer, and see what they think, if its poor quality they would cut it for hay but if its still fairly green they could just take it for silage. If you dont want to keep it you should just say to them, cut it and you keep it - then they shouldnt charge you, as for silage do the same. Were farmers and thats what we have been doing for people. Dont pay to get it cut and then chuck it, there must be some yards near by that would want some hay or haylage surely?
 
I have just shut off part of each of my fields as "foggage" ie standing hay to use in the winter. I do this every year and then strip graze the foggage. It provides fibre at no cost thus saving on hay, I can then buy in a lesser quantity of hay. It costs nothing to produce foggage and it makes a valuable contribution to the winter feed. Especially so in a year when hay will be scare.

If you have enough foggage you can leave some until Spring before using it. It inhibits the grass growth in the spring. This is the very rich laminitic grass that it is inhibiting thus making the field much safer for horses to be turned out on in the spring.

The horses love the foggage. It keeps them occupied for hours. You just need the electric fencing to make sure they don't trample all over your valuable foggage crop.
 
QUOTE=Evelyn;9715081]Rubbish - the fault lies with the stupid behaviour of the owner who feeds too much and fails to exercise the horse properly.

It should be a chargeable offence to allow a horse to get laminitis - maybe that will stop people being so foolish. Native ponies I will agree can be prone to laminitis. It is a disease caused by poor management - nothing more!

Before the advent of processed feeds it truly rarely ever happened except to overweight native ponies on spring grass. It was stopped in a flash by removing them from the grass, stabling on a soft bed and feeding hay - no hard food, maybe a bran mash with Epsom salts to move the grass through fast.[/QUOTE]


Evelyn said:
And why did this crop up? - it's somethng that has happened since the advent of processed feeds in the 70's - it is a poor management disease - don't feed processed feeds.

I've looked after hundreds of horses over the past 40+ years and never had a case of laminitis - I don't feed processed feeds at all. Straight oats or barley, meadow chaff, linseed and sugaarbeet.

However I have seen the effects that processed feeds have on some horses, turning lovely well mannered horses into monsters that their young riders can no longer manage.

It really isn't neccesary to hard feed to the extent that people do these days. But so many people are brain washed into believing that they MUST feed their horse hard feed, soak hay, strip graze. What they do is subject their horse to even more of an un-natural way of life. Horses need to be able to exercise themselves - hoon around the paddock and lark about - even my Clydie has a hoon at dusk - albeit a slow hoon.

The horse world would be far better off if the feed companies closed the factories and went back to selling the basics.
Click to expand...


Whilst I agree with everything you say about the modern feeds, and feed companies, the problem has been exacerbated by the improvement in grassland management and varieties of grasses now widely and almost exclusively used in the farming sector.

When I say that horses cannot cope with rich grasses, I stick by this, I'm sure your heavy horses will cope well on modern hay, with no hard feed, with a proper management system, by that I mean a management system that suits the horse, not the yard owner or horse owner.

Our own horses turned out and well exercised, are on hay/haylage, which I'm sure will not score highly in any quality competition, but to add hard feed, which we don't, would be detrimental and cause laminitis. In essence then, what I'm saying is the lower in feed value the better for horses, and straw is probably about right for them. In fact traditionally in some parts oat straw was fed to heavy horses as a maintainance ration, supplimented by oats when in work.
 
Mike007 said:
You will get 350 bales crop dependant. Best of luck
Bryndu
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Dream on!!! There is no way you will ever get 350 conventional bales off 2 acres.Unfertilised meadow grass , 160 bales (40kg) tops in a good year.[/QUOTE]


Larfed at this!!!
I did actually mention crop dependant.....I get 350 conventional bales EVERY year off 2 acres of unfertilised meadow hay....

Bryndu
 
paddy555 said:
I have just shut off part of each of my fields as "foggage" ie standing hay to use in the winter. I do this every year and then strip graze the foggage. It provides fibre at no cost thus saving on hay, I can then buy in a lesser quantity of hay. It costs nothing to produce foggage and it makes a valuable contribution to the winter feed. Especially so in a year when hay will be scare.

If you have enough foggage you can leave some until Spring before using it. It inhibits the grass growth in the spring. This is the very rich laminitic grass that it is inhibiting thus making the field much safer for horses to be turned out on in the spring.

The horses love the foggage. It keeps them occupied for hours. You just need the electric fencing to make sure they don't trample all over your valuable foggage crop.
Click to expand...

So agree with this.
 
AndySpooner said:
QUOTE=Evelyn;9715081]Rubbish - the fault lies with the stupid behaviour of the owner who feeds too much and fails to exercise the horse properly.

It should be a chargeable offence to allow a horse to get laminitis - maybe that will stop people being so foolish. Native ponies I will agree can be prone to laminitis. It is a disease caused by poor management - nothing more!

Before the advent of processed feeds it truly rarely ever happened except to overweight native ponies on spring grass. It was stopped in a flash by removing them from the grass, stabling on a soft bed and feeding hay - no hard food, maybe a bran mash with Epsom salts to move the grass through fast.
Click to expand...

AndySpoonerWhilst I agree with everything you say about the modern feeds, and feed companies, the problem has been exacerbated by the improvement in grassland management and varieties of grasses now widely and almost exclusively used in the farming sector.

When I say that horses cannot cope with rich grasses, I stick by this, I'm sure your heavy horses will cope well on modern hay, with no hard feed, with a proper management system, by that I mean a management system that suits the horse, not the yard owner or horse owner.

Our own horses turned out and well exercised, are on hay/haylage, which I'm sure will not score highly in any quality competition, but to add hard feed, which we don't, would be detrimental and cause laminitis. In essence then, what I'm saying is the lower in feed value the better for horses, and straw is probably about right for them. In fact traditionally in some parts oat straw was fed to heavy horses as a maintainance ration, supplimented by oats when in work.
Click to expand...

While you believe there is general wholesale improvement in pasture management - it doesn't often flow through to rented paddocks and livery yards especially when land is at a premium, so this cannot be considered as a possible cause for the rise in laminitis. My paddocks which I have grazed for 6 years have been fertilised a few times, the grass is dairy grazing, with clover and rye grass but has not affected my horses because they don't receive processed foods, they have been fed at times when stocking rates were a bit too high and the weather had been bad, but with traditional basics - at that time I had horses of various types of breeding. A farming friend had all his horses and Welsh ponies grazing the same land has his beef cattle, land fertilized annually,limed when necesary and far more care taken of the grass than I see in modern farming. Yet never did they have any problems with laminitis - they worked to suit there feeding levels, and when fed were fed to suit their work loads. The school paddocks were fertilised at least twice a year - we had 32 horses & ponies on 18 acres. No laminitis, no processed feed, work and fed according to work & feeding. All basic horsemanship which is sadly lacking in many young riders of today.
 
Evelyn said:
While you believe there is general wholesale improvement in pasture management - it doesn't often flow through to rented paddocks and livery yards especially when land is at a premium, so this cannot be considered as a possible cause for the rise in laminitis. My paddocks which I have grazed for 6 years have been fertilised a few times, the grass is dairy grazing, with clover and rye grass but has not affected my horses because they don't receive processed foods, they have been fed at times when stocking rates were a bit too high and the weather had been bad, but with traditional basics - at that time I had horses of various types of breeding. A farming friend had all his horses and Welsh ponies grazing the same land has his beef cattle, land fertilized annually,limed when necesary and far more care taken of the grass than I see in modern farming. Yet never did they have any problems with laminitis - they worked to suit there feeding levels, and when fed were fed to suit their work loads. The school paddocks were fertilised at least twice a year - we had 32 horses & ponies on 18 acres. No laminitis, no processed feed, work and fed according to work & feeding. All basic horsemanship which is sadly lacking in many young riders of today.
Click to expand...


Have to agree with this.
 
It is too much to expect a new generation of pony and horse owning teenagers to understand about grassland management, I bought my first horse in 1972 and stuck him on his own in a field, never thought about his need for a companion, I did feed straights in winter, nothing in summer, but even though I had an agricultural background, never looked closely at the grass or any excess condition of my horse.
Now I know better (yes, others may disagree!), but I have to compromise, I would like him to run wild on the hill foraging for sparse grasses all day, but such hills are too far away from me, so as long as he is not too fat, he is left out 24/7 in his alloted field.
I have him in a mixed herd of mares and geldings, which suits him very well, the grass is a bit too green ,and there is quite a bit of mud (rain , rain go away), but there is safe hacking and a floodlight arena, so I can exercise daily if I want to.
I would like the farmer to over-sow with grasses suited to horses, but I think he would throw a wobbly if I started telling him how to run his farm!
Things have changed, and sometimes for the better: I remember one farmer in 1972 telling me about The Soil Association (the origins of the organic movement).... I said .. "that 'll never catch on" I felt I had to "confess" to my vet that I had been treating my horse with a herbal remedy, he just laughed, in those days all the old horsemen had loads of cures for horses, and I found them really useful.
 
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