Cwd, really as good as they promote?

[Pinokioputhzy]

Last weekend in jumping Amsterdam I sat on a Cwd dressage saddle at the CWD stand. I really was impressed about how comfertable the saddle was. I am currently looking for a dressage saddle. Plan is to buy a saddle in a year. I already have a jumping saddle.
But I did start googling Cwd reviews and I mainly found horror stories about this brand, all from USA, I live in The Netherlands and most stories I hear from Dutch people are good.
What are your opinions about Cwd (dressage) saddles? Ofcourse I will also look into other brands

 

[Elno]

French saddles in general are very nice for the rider, not so much for the horse I'm afraid.

CWD, or as some choose to call them- Crippling Wither Devices.

 

[Pinokioputhzy]

That’s exactly what I understood from the USA reviews, nice for rider, not always for the horse, unless your Cwd rep is a very good saddle fitter, but most of them are very good sellers

 

[sbloom]

I think in some cases a really good fitter can do a decent job with some French saddles on some horses. Otherwise they're sold by reps and often don't have tree or panel shapes that really help in developing horses' backs.

 

[ycbm]

I just looked at their website. How much ? £5000 for a used saddle with marks from the stirrup leathers ?
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[Pinokioputhzy]

I just looked at their website. How much ? £5000 for a used saddle with marks from the stirrup leathers ?
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Prices of new saddles are around £5000 right? Used at between the £2000 and 4000, still expensive

 

[sbloom]

I just looked at their website. How much ? £5000 for a used saddle with marks from the stirrup leathers ?
.

They need to fund the champagne budget on their huge trade stands ....£5k new is about standard for many French saddles, and some others. They are usually absolutely beautiful leather, but so often calfskin - grippy but not especially hard wearing!

 

[cyberhorse]

So we have an older ISH all rounder who has had a variety of saddles in his life. He has a Fairfax dressage and did have a Black Country jump saddle which my husband found comfy, but I was struggling with. The problem with our horse is he is high withered, with a very large shoulder and forward girth groove and all saddles for him have always felt like a compromise. He is free in front in a straight cut dressage but not so free in canter, in a jump cut has a lovely canter but the shoulder stretch not so good. I tried a second hand CWD jump 2gs and of all the ones we tried over those few weeks this was the only one our horse went really well in to the point that we felt it was worth the hefty price tag and the slightly scuffed up appearance. He has had it for 3yrs and still gets on really well with it. Not a dressage version but if you can get the same tree in those then maybe worth trying. Although it has been great for him I would not buy a standard CWD tree based on my experience, as I feel it is the flex this particular style of saddle seems to allow that helps him so much. It has been approved as a good choice for him by his traditional saddler (checks this when he does our dressage saddle adjustments). This saddler is not a rep. is very experienced and well regarded in the profession. He’d be quick to tell me if he though the CWD was no good as would my physio who was much happier with him after the change of saddle. What he does say is that these saddles are not to be used the same as a close flock fit and need to be fitted to have a half pad especially with the stirrup bars if jumping.

 

[marmalade76]

The nicest dressage saddle I had was an Ideal, very comfy and much more sensibly priced.

 

[Palindrome]

Not many people will have one in the UK as it's a French brand. My mother has a CWD dressage saddle. If it fits you and your horse, it is a nice saddle. It has a deep seat and big blocks. It is used on a short backed horse (iberian).
IMO it's on par with Albion quality wise.

 

[Pinokioputhzy]

Not many people will have one in the UK as it's a French brand. My mother has a CWD dressage saddle. If it fits you and your horse, it is a nice saddle. It has a deep seat and big blocks. It is used on a short backed horse (iberian).
IMO it's on par with Albion quality wise.

Yes, most important thing it that is fits your horse, rep is always want to sell to reach their targets ofcourse, so they probably not going to say that it fit or not.
I also want to look in some Uk brand like loxley/bliss of london and Albion

 

[ycbm]

Prices of new saddles are around £5000 right? Used at between the £2000 and 4000, still expensive

There's a whole page of used saddles at the £5k mark, several of which have noticeable stirrup leather marks. Or there was just before I posted.
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[ycbm]

They need to fund the champagne budget on their huge trade stands ....£5k new is about standard for many French saddles, and some others. They are usually absolutely beautiful leather, but so often calfskin - grippy but not especially hard wearing!

I've never been keen on continental saddles since I rode on a Stübben in the 80s and a Butet in the 2000s and both were like sitting on a rock. They may have improved but that price is a complete no for me. I saw an Amerigo fitted by a very senior man and when I queried why it was rising off the horses back at the cantle he told me that was deliberate to allow the horse freedom to move. So that was them ruled out as well.
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[sbloom]

I've never been keen on continental saddles since I rode on a Stübben in the 80s and a Butet in the 2000s and both were like sitting on a rock. They may have improved but that price is a complete no for me. I saw an Amerigo fitted by a very senior man and when I queried why it was rising off the horses back at the cantle he told me that was deliberate to allow the horse freedom to move. So that was them ruled out as well.
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Actually the lift at the cantle can be okay, depends on how much, but saddles, especially those with flattened gussets, can prevent free movement of the lumbar spine and therefore the function of the pelvis. Lifting in canter would be less desirable, lifting in rising trot and over a fence can be fine. Horses with hock problems often like a little lift at the back of the saddle.

The longer I do this job the more I realise there are different rules for different types of saddles -

https://www.facebook.com/stephbloomspecialistsaddlefitter/posts/pfbid0RAnwfJ1XsghZBSxU3j8hdJckmv2wezZpi7dWQmxkLSaqfazmD9qe7dsAMCYNXwHCl

. Stubben has changed a lot, Butet probably less so, and it may be that your pelvic shape just suited neither; sure they were firm, but seats often feel much harder if they don't fit the pelvis properly. Explains why ordering a softer seat isn't generally the solution to getting a more comfortable seat.

 

[Elno]

I've never been keen on continental saddles since I rode on a Stübben in the 80s and a Butet in the 2000s and both were like sitting on a rock. They may have improved but that price is a complete no for me. I saw an Amerigo fitted by a very senior man and when I queried why it was rising off the horses back at the cantle he told me that was deliberate to allow the horse freedom to move. So that was them ruled out as well.
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The new Stübbens are lush I still mourn my Genesis Spezial that I sold after the horse that wore it had to be put down.

 

[ycbm]

Actually the lift at the cantle can be okay, depends on how much, but saddles, especially those with flattened gussets, can prevent free movement of the lumbar spine and therefore the function of the pelvis.

Nobody will ever, ever, convince me that allowing the back of the saddle to move because the front of the saddle doesn't move enough to allow the shoulders and back to work is a good thing, sorry.
.

 

[sbloom]

I didn't say anything about the shoulders not moving? I can only relay my experience and that of colleagues and mentors. Yet again, many ways to fit a saddle.

 

[Pinokioputhzy]

I think when i want to buy a dressage saddle I would call several saddlefitters (include Cwd rep) to test several brands. My jumping saddle is a passier, but the fitter who sold me that saddle doesn’t have a lot of brands, beside passier also gfs, but want to look for more options. In my eyes harder to find a nice and correct dressage saddle than looking at a jumping saddle, especially because of all the knee roll options (I don’t have long legs) and deep seats ect

 

[ycbm]

I didn't say anything about the shoulders not moving?

No, I did. A saddle which "fits" but moves at the back must move because of rigidity at the shoulders because no other part of the horse is moving enough to cause it. A saddle that flexes with the horse at the shoulders or has room for the shoulders to move underneath it doesn't move noticeably at the back. The alternative, of course, is that it doesn't even fit at the shoulders and is dipping at the front and lifting the back. I simply would not buy any saddle that moves noticeably at the back. I'm happy with my own decision on that, I'm afraid no saddler could convince me it's right even if they saddle for top names.
.

 

[sbloom]

The horse's back is a different shape in movement, some panel shapes, and trees and panels that are designed to not carry weight on the rear section ie forward balance saddles, may show more movement at the back.


Agree or disagree, makes no odds to how I fit, and it's nothing to do with shoulders or fitting for top names. I would not fit an AH saddle like this, though, as I say, a horse with hock problems is often happier with a little movement.

A horse correctly pushing up in front can lift the middle of the saddle at least a cm, in which case it might be worrying if the very back edge is hard onto the back. Just a few mm lift under the bars can make things look very different indeed. The "solid at the back" model is very much SMS and not accepted everywhere.

Of course without videos we are all guessing at what we each mean by acceptable versus unacceptable.