Cyclical lethargy - anyone come across it? Pls help!

catembi

catembi

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I would be very grateful for any input on this as I must admit to being baffled.

Horse - 9 yo ex-racer, owned for over 3 years, lives at home with my ISH.

Just over a year ago, we had some upsets which might/might not be relevant. Wouldn't load into a hired box - spent 5 hours trying to load. Later that week - went for a hack, got mobbed by bullocks, he was terrified, jumped off to lead him, he pulled away, ran off & was chased round a huge field for 20 mins. Unhurt but shaken. The same week, he was so naughty for the farrier that he had a week barefoot til I could get some sedalin.

Since then, he's been increasingly lethargic & has lost weight...but this might be a co-incidence. Fed hay, readigrass + fastfibre.

Problem – he is thin with no top line. He only finished shedding his coat in July. He has very loud gut noises. Poo is 100% normal. Appetite is normal/greedy. He can be very lethargic & sometimes looks dull. He currently does up to 30 mins of mooching in the school a day, dep on how he feels (sometimes we give up early) often in walk & I sometimes can’t get him to trot for more than 5 to 10 strides. But sometimes he will take a hold & offer walk/canter or extended trot strides & wants to jump. We are careful not to over-do it if he's on a good day.

Fine to groom/tack up/mount. Had a v full dental exam from a vet specialising in teeth a few months ago, resulting in a very thorough rasping & removal of a problematic wolf tooth. Very full blood tests were all 100% normal – liver/kidney function etc. Heart normal. Cushings test –ve. Not at all lame. Gait normal. Not EPSM as my other horse has that & I know what it feels like. All worm counts always -ve, & I wormed with Equimax a month or two ago to be on the safe side re tapeworms.

Vets did all the above tests but wouldn’t scope for ulcers as their equipt isn’t portable. This is what I’ve tried:

Omeprazole from Abler in the USA. Worked brilliantly for about 3 weeks, then for the rest of the 3 months, Trev was up & down & went back to being slow.
Egusin SLH – worked well for about 10 days, then declined.
Activated charcoal – 2 different brands have had zero effect.
Pronutrin – zero effect.
Protexin – zero effect.
Coligone – zero effect.
Ul30rex – zero effect.
Fennel seeds - improvement for 5 to 7 days, then back to 'normal' i.e. slow.

I am v puzzled because we are developing a pattern where he is slow & won't work at more than 10 to 20% of capacity for 2 weeks, then he will perk back up to 70 to 75% of capacity for 5 days or so, then will drop back down with NO changes whatsoever in management. I have an exclusion on my insurance for lethargy. I can't understand why it's varying so much when we're doing **exactly** the same. I really don't know what to do next as all tests have been -ve!

I went thru 18 months of every test you can think of, veterinary & alternative practitioners, & £5.5k, to find out that Adrian had EPSM & I can't believe that I've managed to end up with *another* baffling horse. Atm I'm wondering if it might be chronic fatigue - I had that for a good 5 years & it was no fun at all.

All suggestions welcomed - it was the people on here throwing out lots of weird & wonderful suggestions that helped me track down what was wrong with Adrian when the vets all thought I was batty.

T x
 
This is just a thought - I am no way qualified to help with medical issues - but what is he like with a more energy giving food? some horses are naturally athletic and full of energy but some are naturally lazy cant be bothered types.
 
With the late shedding, weight loss and periods of lethargy I would get him tested for PPID (cushings) and insulin resistance. Sore hooves are also possibility linked to the metabolic disorders I mentioned.
A low sugar/carb high fibre/forage diet would help the above along with looking at minerals in diet.
 
Do you have a copy of the full bloods? If not, do ask (and persist) until you get one. Then check very carefully for anything even marginally high or low.

Specifically, I'd be looking at the value for CK (which you'll know from your EPSM horse, is the main muscle enzyme). I've heard of countless vets just not reporting the CK result because it was only elevated by a few hundred - because their main experience is with it being in the 10's or 100's of thousands in full tying up.

If you find out the CK result, do please post it.

If you've had more than one blood test, do obtain copies of all the full blood reports and see for yourself if you can pick up any patterns. (I had to do this when starting to look into why my gang of 6 (now 5) dales ponies were showing work intolerance. I don't call it lethargy, because lethargy is a dullness 24/7, and yet my gang are "normally" alert on the yard and when not working. With them, it's "just" work intolerance.

How was your other horse confirmed for EPSM? Was it hair/blood (ie genetic proof of the disease), or was it biopsy (which is much more open to interpretation)?

Have you ever had your grass/hay/haylage analysed and checked that the selenium levels are adequate (NRC recommends a minimum of 0.1mg/kg dry matter selenium in forage)? My own forage only provides 0.04 - 0.05mg/kg so is only providing 40-50% of what it should be providing.

What balancer or vit/mins are you giving? (or what feed).... and what weight per day?

If you are not giving a full ration of a balancer or vit/mins providing a "good amount" of organic selenium (aka selenium yeast), then I'd switch to one that does. I've switched to Blue Chip feeds recently for this reason, as I'm going by trends shown in my own gang's blood results taken most months over the last year and a half. The only significant downward trend in muscle enzymes for all the gang has been 4-5 months after being on selenium yeast for 2 months.

Can't help to try.

Of course it could be something totally different, but forage analysis is cheap enough to check in any case.

I've certainly found my gang become more work-intolerant if they have done several days work consecutively.

Good luck.

Sarah
 
This winter my boy was extremely lethargic and was diagnosed with a very low white blood cell count which is often regarded as a post-viral chronic fatigue type illness. Doesn't sound like this is it in your case as you've had bloods done, although I understand WBC counts do vary between horses. So could be mild?? For what it's worth I gave him 240ml of Aloe Vera a day for 8 weeks. I found an article from the late 1990's were a vet used it in a series of horses with this chronic fatigue type syndrome. It's not a real scientific study but it is interesting. My other options were things like anabolic steroids which would NOT have been a good idea on my guy so I decided to give the aloe vera a try. Another vet from the same practice also said he had used aloe vera with iron supplements with good success. But these were in cases where the WBC was low.

Mine also had ulcers but he was scoped and had 6 weeks of GG, but I don't think the ulcers were connected in his case. If you think ulcers are really the issue I'd be inclined to get another vet to scope him and get the insurance to pay for treatment.

Good luck!
 
H'mm, some interesting ideas. I was thinking of trying aloe vera so good to hear that someone else has used it. Do you think it worked?

I think that ulcers *might* have been an issue to start with (i.e. over a year ago when he got v stressed) as he was v irritable & kicking etc,. but 3 months of the abler plus a month of the egusin should have sorted them out (if there were any). I *think* the fennel seeds may have sorted out his windiness - he used to keep stopping as if he wanted a poo, with his tail up, & he's stopped doing that & has stopped biting/kicking/being angry. There is def *something* up with him - I just haven't found it yet.

For the person who asked re Adrian & EPSM diagnosis - after every test under the sun, inc 10 days at Rossdales, the conclusion was that nothing was wrong & I should PTS if not happy with him. Got a diff local vet out (used another one before Rossdales) to do heart function & a few more tests. Sent off a hair sample myself which was -ve for EPSM (as was Trev's) but apparently there are 2 types, only one of which the hair test will flag up. Didn't bother with muscle biopsy as I felt sorry for him having so many horrid things done & EPSM can occur in diff muscle groups & there might not be enough damage to show up til the horse is 12, & he was 6 or 7 at the time. So I tried the high oil diet, & bingo. He is now maintained on DMG powder, which keeps him as comfy as he's going to get.

Interestingly, the only person who got it right was the equine communicator Anne Dee who said straight away that he feels very weak because he can't use his food properly.

Anyway, back to Trev. He is def dull (i.e. looks sad & fed up) & then he'll have 5 days or so of being perkier, then back to dull, for no reason that I can tell. Days off, etc, don't seem to have an effect. I am missing a piece of this puzzle.

T x
 
My worst affected pony, Max, raises his tail a lot and does the stopping as if to poo and stopping as if to wee things. In cattle, a "pumphandle" tail is recognised by some as an indicator of selenium deficiency.

Especially with your other horse having tested negative for type 1 EPSM, I really would just pay the few pounds to have your forage tested for selenium and know for sure whether that's the problem, especially if you are not already giving a balancer with a good amount of selenium.

As you'll know, type 2 EPSM is really just the name that's given to those horses who show abnormal glycogen in their muscles but who don't have the gene mutation known for type 1. Richard Piercy, RVC made a comment in one of his webinars that type 2 EPSM could be 1 or more than one conditions. Until we know the cause, or causes, we don't know.

There are other things which strike me as similar between Max and your boy. Max can be quite aggressive/defensive, especially when he's being led out on a ride (my take is that he has to take his pain out on someone so he picks on the horse next to him, but who knows the real reason).

Don't think I posted the link to this video of Max attempting a ridden trot: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73446118/Max grinding to a halt 270613.3gp

If that's in any way similar to your boy, just get your forage tested and get him on a Blue Chip balancer. That'd be my best suggestion anyway.

Sarah
 
I've got a now 7yo that I purchased as a rising 5 yo.
Temprement wise he is a very honest genuine type, and one to just get on with things without complaining.

For virtually the entire time this horse has had fluctuating energy levels, at times to the point whereby just riding him felt like horse abuse!! Completely dead and wooden. Yet at other times he would have a brief spell of being really on form, full of himself and just a general cool dude. Generally worse in the summer, better in winter but not completely so.

I honestly have felt like I have had hyperchondria or munchausen's by proxy or something.

We have been through a series of 'is it this' type scenarios, and now have a nice long list ...

We ran basic blood profiles that didn't really show anything, later we ran another which flagged up tapeworm exposure and an encysted red potential - so hit him with extra wormer and saw a brief improvement.

Then we tried just playing around with feeds, suspecting some sort of muscle condition - so having been upping the competition rations (to probably a worsening effect on stuffiness) we stopped the competition cubes and switched to hifi light with ERS pellets. There was certainly an improvement but it didn't completely solve things.

Then my vet noticed something I hadn't - a slight increase in respiration rate. We wondered on the lines of pollen allergy etc - more bloods showed a slight variation, a tracheal wash showed an inflammatory response in the lungs - we hit him with ventapulmin and steroids - and saw a good improvement in energy levels on higher doses of steroids. We ran allergy tests, and they showed he was highly allergic to linseed, so eliminated that from his diet .... to be honest not sure that has made a noticeable difference.

Alongside this allergic asthma scenario (lethergy) he also started to struggle with his canter strike off/quality which at the time we linked to the lethergy. A bute trial improved this (although was hit and miss) and we then went for full lameness work ups. Findings actually suggested some sort of diagonal twist injury, main issue being significant SI ligament damage but there was other areas of concern too, and I can't say for certain but about 6 months prior to this diagnosis he got trapped by a hind leg on a horse walker and that diagnosis would sort of tie in with that.

So I thought I had it figured out - a bit of mild allergic asthma combined with injury.

The curveball came late spring when this horse became quite pottery having been turned away all winter. Suspecting mild laminitis I treated him accordingly, ran a cushings test and blow me down it came back at 150. So we now have that thrown in the mix too. For me the horse is a complete LOU, but he has come back into hacking work to try and help with weight management. He has felt utterly horrendous at times, but is slowly improving as we increase his prascend (ACTH not fully controlled yet).

I have given up trying to figure out what is wrong and just take each day at a time now!
Hope you get to the bottom of your horses issues.
 
ihatework said:
he is a very honest genuine type, and one to just get on with things without complaining.

riding him felt like horse abuse!! Completely dead and wooden. Yet at other times he would have a brief spell of being really on form, full of himself and just a general cool dude. Generally worse in the summer, better in winter but not completely so.

We ran basic blood profiles that didn't really show anything

Then we tried just playing around with feeds, suspecting some sort of muscle condition

Then my vet noticed something I hadn't - a slight increase in respiration rate.

struggle with his canter strike off/quality
Click to expand...

ihatework, all of what you have said above describes my worst affected boy to a tee. Did you get copies of all blood reports - did you see the muscle enzyme results for yourself (CK - creatine kinase)? Most vets I've come across will disregard small elevations in CK, which may be significant enough to cause muscle cramping and reluctance to exercise. Ask for a copy of the bloods and see for yourself.

I wouldn't give up yet. I'd opt for forage analysis to check selenium levels (should be 0.1mg/kg dry matter selenium to be providing enough) and provide a good balancer or vit/mins that includes around 1mg or organic selenium (aka selenium yeast). Then wait 5 months and hope for a difference!

Sarah
 
catembi said:
H'mm, some interesting ideas. I was thinking of trying aloe vera so good to hear that someone else has used it. Do you think it worked?
Click to expand...

The easy answer is, yes in his case I think it probably did make a difference. I'm a scientist so I'm not going to say absolutely it did because in order to do so I'd need to have practically done my own clinical trial :)! But having said that he went from being so lethargic I thought we were going to have to take him to hospital to being so full of himself he chucked me off and went for his own cross country run and when we finally found him he looked like he'd had great fun! Cheeky monkey.... His WBC count went from something like 3.3 to 5 in maybe 10-12 weeks. Unrelated he now has hind suspensory problems and I'm having to use daily sedalin to keep him even mildly under control.

My plan, were he not off due to actual lameness issues, was to give him a maintenance dose of 120ml for a few weeks on a few weeks off (continually) so his immune system didn't become dependent on it.

I also had him on linseed oil which has anti-inflammatory properties and benefits the immune system.

Aloe can be expensive but Holland and Barrett often have deals - I kept cleaning out the stock at my local store!
 
OMG, ihatework, you have exactly described the rollercoaster that I went on with Adrian, & I feel that it's all happening again with Trev! Down to the Munchausen's thing! All the vets thought I was completely mad, but I absolutely *knew* I was right. I feel that (as with A) I could spend the next couple of years getting tests done & never really get an answer.

Totally agree re riding feeling like horse abuse. It bores me stupid trailing around the school in walk, but that's all he wants to do, & the alternative is...not riding at all? I don't really like riding A, altho I do every few weeks, cos once upon a time he was a full-on showjumper (his half-brother came 2nd in the Hickstead Derby & his full brother retired after the water jump, & all his siblings are competing internationally) & was doing quite nicely BS/BD & it makes me sad to compare what he can do now. I only have 2.5 acres & can only afford (in the loosest sense of the word!) 2 horses. I should really get rid of both & buy something else, but I never will. T is now 9 & ex-racers tend to make early twenties, so I will be walking round the school & going on walk-hacks for a few years yet!

FFF, thank you for posting the vid. This is how T used to go, but since he's been on the fennel seeds, he doesn't grind to a halt. He keeps walking along slowly, but never actually stops.

HD15, I would be sooooo happy to get bucked off!!! The most fun I've had out of T lately was on a walk-hack with A's sharer when T shied at a coil of wire. Only a 3 out of 10 on the shying scale, but for once I got to sit tight & hang on, if only for a nanosecond... 'proper' riding! Out of interest, did yours prefer the plain aloe or the fruit flavoured one...the red one...can't rem what's in it. Cranberry? Cherry?

I am going to be brave & post some pics. Some of T - he's put on a tiny bit of weight from the photos since he's been on the fennel, and one of A (grey) for comparison. T is fed the same as A, but 50 to 100% more. Just to prove I don't starve them! And one of T trotting today. Pls no-one be horrible.

Actually, no I'm not cos Photobucket is having a funny turn! I will try again in a bit.

T x
 
Right, let's have another go...

First time I've tried to do photos from photobucket on the new forum & it's not working...















No idea if any of these will work as they're showing as links when I used to be able to get them to do the actual photo... If they don't work, could someone pls tell me how to post photos in the new forum? Thank you!

T x
 
I don't know much about this but if both your horses are having similar/ mysterious problems (sorry if I'm wrong on this!) then you need to start checking things that you take for granted like your forage etc. Did they have problems before you had them?? I've known Blue Chip to solve a ponies manical itching that I had been through everything to try and solve (Driven myself bats over it as well!) and if Sarah says it helped solve problems similar to yours what have you got to lose? It is also brilliant for helping build up tb's so it would help you out with trying to build his condition if nothing else!

Really hope you manage to get to the bottom of it, always a horrible situation to be in.
 
Got some aloe this morning! Superstrength one was half price in Holland & Barratt. Should have got 2 while I was at it, but there's a limit to what I want to carry around in my bag on my commute!

Will look into forage testing & try Blue Chip if the aloe makes no difference. I found aloe v good when I had post viral fatigue.

T x
 
I have not had the pleasure of a thin horse, trust me fatties are just as difficult. I would probably not ride Trev until you can get some more condition on him. I would get good hay and good haylage and make sure he has both on offer at all times. The only ex racer I had did really well on baileys no 4, yeastsac, alfa oil. Do you have anywhere nearby where he could be turned out in a good large grass field.
I have always found feedmark supplements do what they say on the tin. They have a huge range something for every type of problem.
The only other thing that popped into my mind is grass sickness it can show in different ways.
I wish you good luck in getting Trev back to the horse you want.
 
catembi said:
did yours prefer the plain aloe or the fruit flavoured one...the red one...can't rem what's in it. Cranberry? Cherry?
Click to expand...

I got the plain flavor, but it took him 4-5 days to get used to it. I put on chaff and at first disguised it with some carrots and nuts. After a few days he would just eat the plain wet chaff and didn't seem to notice at all. 240ml is a lot so covering it up meant it was quite a snack! Maybe I should have gotten the flavored kind.

H&B seem to have a penny deal or something on at the moment so that should help.

Oh, and the only other thing I can say if this is indeed what yours has is that the vets cautioned against doing too much exercise - sort of a let him set his own pace and stopping if he was tired.


Good luck!
 
Ah, thankies! I got the superstrength one as it was 1/2 price. I tried it myself & it was foul, but he doesn't seem to mind it. I've started with a small amount so I can increase it. So by this eve he'd had 3 lots. Yest he was having a 10% day, & today I reckon 17%. He had the odd flash of carrying himself properly & when we'd finished, he had a wet mouth. He has a dry mouth if he really doesn't want to know.

Yeah, I agree re exercise. We start in walk, then I try a trot on each rein & if he really doesn't want to know, we just mooch about in loose shapes in walk. Maybe I shouldn't be riding him, as Hobo suggested, but it's the only way to tell how he's feeling. His appetite is always good. He's out 24/7 anyway, & I weigh 8 stone, so I don't think it's going to kill him to amble about in walk... and it keeps me sane.

Interestingly, on the fennel seeds the excessive wind/discomfort has stopped & has stayed stopped for a couple of weeks now. V good as it's been an issue for over a year. If this was an episode of House, I think it would be one where there were 2 diseases going on at once. The wind appears to be fixed (touch wood) and we are left with Something Else.

Let's see what tomo brings. Thank you for your help.

T x
 
At what point int he cycle have you taken the bloods? If you only have one set of bloods taken then you have nothing to compare to for what is "his normal". I'd look at running weekly bloods for four weeks to see what the changes are....there may be nothing, there may be minute but worst case scenario you will build up a good baseline. Next thing is have you tried him on any antibiotics. I'm not one for drugging horses willy nilly but Dolly my older mare has every winter for the last few years dropped weight overnight despite nothing changing, bloods show nothing significant though some very minor changes in white cell count (We do annual bloods on everything when we know they are 100% right to have a baseline) but nothing significant. A course of noroprim and she rallies round quite easily. It is impossible to predict when it's going to happen, nothing ever shows up in feed/forage analysis to cause worry but something does upset her. I'd also consider getting a nutritionist out and get their slant on it.
 
I have not but have you tried global herbs restore it is a great tonic and detox and when my pony was recovering from a chest infection I gave him and it really perked him up.

I also use it for a week before and after worming.
 
SO1, I emailed Global Herbs with our tale of woe, & they suggested fennel seeds, restore & herbal prebiotics. The fennel seeds have worked, hurray. I will try the other 2 if the aloe doesn't have any effect.

Spookypony, I did actually have some prascend, but only a few tablets for my old girl. I gave them to her during her last month in case they made her feel better. Kinda wish I'd kept them, but I don't s'pose half a dozen would have given me a definitive answer. Our vet does a free test of some description with flu/tet & he's due in a couple of months, so might try another Cushings test then.

We started on the linseed today, so shall see what, if anything, happens. I would like a lot more weight on him before winter.

T x
 
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