Daft dog questions

[Kat_Bath]

I semi-promised @SaddlePsych'D I'd post my worries/daft dog questions and they are still on my mind, so here we go...

Buddy has been with us 3 months now - hasn't that gone quick?! - so it's really sinking in for him that this might be it. He has pretty much followed the 3-3-3 model to the letter, just this last stage might take us quite a bit longer. Since we went away for 4 days about three weeks ago (had a house sitter) and OH started her new job (out most days, but not all, and I'm still in), he has taken to lying by the front door, all day and most of the evening, even if one of us is in, or both is us are on the sofa. If not by the front door, he takes himself off upstairs. Is this OK?! I worry about him. Some days, I hardly see him!

He's a funny one as he always wants to be as close as possible when you're with him or stroking, but then he takes himself off to really far away. He is quite needy, even more so this week, but I think he might genuinely be needing reassurance just now? I keep telling him that his job now is just to provide cuddles, and we'll do the rest and he can chill out, but I don't think he's convinced! I'm a bit worried I offer too many hugs, but he doesn't really ask, and we did take a step back from too many while he was pushing boundaries. Is it possible to hug a dog too much?! I hope not?! ?

As I'm now going back to the office a couple of days a week, we have a dog walker (and she is only walking them - they're not going out in a group, which is amazing). I'm really worried it's not going to work out and we'll be back to square one (which wasn't fun - I messaged 21 separate walkers and at least 16 of them came back and said they had no space). I hope Buddy will adjust and I think I possibly need to remember we are paying her and she's not doing us a favour...? Which sounds harsh, but do you know what I mean? This is the first time we have had a proper dog walker because previously OH WFH pre-COVID, hence we got a dog in the first place. I'm quite nervous about it... The pandemic has bought a huge amount of change to our lives, not least in that one of us doesn't WFH full time now. I am guilty of catastophising everything, but I'm so worried I'm going to have to find a new job and at one point had convinced myself we'd probably have to rehome both dogs, which would devastate me, but I'm struggling to get passed that a bit... There's so much of a push to get back to the office, which frustrates me. But even when looking for a new job, WFH opportunities seem few and far between (I had a quick look). Anyway... I'm probably being dramatic.

Related to the walker, his reactivity to other dogs is sometimes minor, sometimes major, and there doesn't seem to necessarily be a pattern... We're working with a trainer, who is so supportive, and we're exposing him to dogs and training, training, training, and I think I know it's a matter of time, but is there anything I/we could do to help this so that the walker has an easier time? She walks the two of them together, just her, if that makes a difference.

I don't want to over-face him but I am starting to think we need to do more with him. I don't think he did a lot of hard graft, but he was a working dog. This evening, I did a short 15 minute sessions in the garden with him, with a clicker. I'm not sure if this will help or not as I don't think it'll be achievable on walks when walking them both together (not got enough hands!) but his response was incredible and he absolutely nailed it. I just wanted to try it as there was something in me that said he might respond well (whereas Harvey couldn't care less about clicks!). I will chat to the trainer, but I'm wondering if we start to use it more but only training, not on walks? I'm hoping to try hoopers with him as well and we are going to small group training classes soon, which might be a baptism of fire...!

In relation to this, he does everything at a hundred miles an hour - he is quick to sit, take a treat, run, everything. He is fast. I was reading the thread about hyperactivity but I think it might just be him and his working background. But he is 8 next month. I'm not convinced he will ever slow down!

That's probably enough for now but I could go on. I love them both an incredible amount, but earlier today I was in tears on the morning walk, because I'm so worried. I nearly posted this earlier but thought I'd better calm down a bit first! I just want to be a good dog owner, but I wish we could have a massive sign that said RESCUE - IN TRAINING so everyone knew, because otherwise he just looks like a bad dog, but he's not. Sigh. Anyway, I'll stop now. You don't even have to reply - I just feel better for writing it down! Thank you for reading if you got this far!

 

[some show]

I just want to be a good dog owner, but I wish we could have a massive sign that said RESCUE - IN TRAINING so everyone knew, because otherwise he just looks like a bad dog, but he's not. Sigh.

This is so familiar to me and I'm sure a lot of other people on here (and everywhere), you are not alone! You can get those yellow lead-sheaths and bandanas and things that say 'I need space' and that kind of thing, whether anyone takes notice of them is another matter but some people do find them useful. I spent a loooong time avoiding other dogs with Joe, or I should say keeping our distance - I wanted him to see them but not get over his threshold. 'Look at me' is a really good thing to train for reactivity, and it sounds like Buddy is really responsive to training so it'd be a great bonding thing for you! As a lab, hopefully he loves his food? ?

I know clicker training's not everyone's cup of tea on here but I love it, and Joe loves it, sounds like it would work well for Buddy. I watch kikopup's videos on youtube for quick ideas of fun things to teach, and she also has great vids about reactivity/calmness/settling etc. All positive reinforcement.

It sounds like you're doing a wonderful job and he's really landed on his feet with you. I wouldn't worry about him choosing to take himself off sometimes, giving him that space to make his own decisions will make him relax and not feel pressured - and he'll either choose to come out of his shell more or it might just be his personality to want 'me time'! Which is fair enough, I need that too ?

 

[Goldenstar]

Deep breath and relax it’s early days .
Have you walked him wit the DogWalker a few times .

 

[Kat_Bath]

This is so familiar to me and I'm sure a lot of other people on here (and everywhere), you are not alone! You can get those yellow lead-sheaths and bandanas and things that say 'I need space' and that kind of thing, whether anyone takes notice of them is another matter but some people do find them useful. I spent a loooong time avoiding other dogs with Joe, or I should say keeping our distance - I wanted him to see them but not get over his threshold. 'Look at me' is a really good thing to train for reactivity, and it sounds like Buddy is really responsive to training so it'd be a great bonding thing for you! As a lab, hopefully he loves his food? ?

I know clicker training's not everyone's cup of tea on here but I love it, and Joe loves it, sounds like it would work well for Buddy. I watch kikopup's videos on youtube for quick ideas of fun things to teach, and she also has great vids about reactivity/calmness/settling etc. All positive reinforcement.

It sounds like you're doing a wonderful job and he's really landed on his feet with you. I wouldn't worry about him choosing to take himself off sometimes, giving him that space to make his own decisions will make him relax and not feel pressured - and he'll either choose to come out of his shell more or it might just be his personality to want 'me time'! Which is fair enough, I need that too ?

I needed to hear that - thank you! I think we need a Reactive Dogs Unite owners support group! Everyone else out walking is always having a jolly time, it seems, although I know that's not always the case. I wish everyone knew just how much work we have done (and continue to do with Harvey), and how much Buddy has come on with us already.

He does love his food, but isn't used to treating and rewarding. He's getting there though, but I am going to try squeezy cheese and see if that really, really gets him engaged.

Thank you for the YouTube recommendation - I'll look her up. Harvey didn't give a rat's arse about clicker training ? but Buddy was immense.

I'm so used to Harvey liking human company but I'm actually quite happy to have a more independent dog around - he just blows hot and cold, one minute he can't get closer to you, the next he's away upstairs ??

Deep breath and relax it’s early days .
Have you walked him wit the DogWalker a few times .

Thank you, I needed to hear that too. She was here yesterday and then from next week it's Tuesday and Wednesday, so hopefully some routine will be established. I feel sorry for the pair of them as we have the same weekly routine (weekday walks from the house, weekend adventure walks) but I don't think their memories are good, so they don't know where they are in the week and now we're adding something new mid-week ? Poor sods!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I'm sure that you are doing fine. If you want to do clicker training but haven't enough hands, click your tongue, you can never lose it.
We are walking a friend's 8 month old Lab pup and I can certainly identify how you feel about people getting in the way of your training. There are some complete idiots about!
So long as Buddy isn't being destructive, I wouldn't worry too much about where he is lying but I do remember we had a Lab bitch, many years ago who, as she got older, would take herself off and lie away from our other dogs. Eventually she was diagnosed with and treated for arthritis/rheumatism and I think the lying by herself was an early sign of this. As he is no longer young, it might be worth giving him a supplement like YouMove for his joints.
You won't need to rehome the dogs, even if you do have to go into the office every day, that's the beauty of having 2 dogs, they keep each other company and with a dogwalker, that's your problem solved! GS' advice to walk the dogs with a DW a few times is good.


ETA, I forgot about the cuddles, cuddle him as much as you want and he will tolerate, so long as he won't think that you are rewarding anti-social behaviour.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Relax a wee bit, you’ve had him 3 months (blow me, is it that long?!) I was reading how it takes 3 months to get a dog to settle. It sounds like he’s very relaxed, going upstairs alone surely demonstrates that he’s confident/happy? Jake did this a lot, Bear now does it, he just can’t be doing with the energetic toddlers in the morning.

Some dogs aren’t into cuddles, Mitch prefers not to be too close to our faces and is on the floor rather than our knee, unlike his brother. I imagine you’re letting him dictate the pace with cuddles, so just breathe and let him be himself. There’s no right or wrong, they’re all different, as my neighbour likes to remind me!

Working with a trainer is brilliant, as long as it’s the right one, took me 4 go’s to find the right one. If you feel you’re making progress, stick with it. It’s very early days. You’re doing a great job if he wants to be close to you when in the same area.

As for the dog Walker, I filtered a lot of frankly mad people eg ‘My sister knows what a dog looks like, can she be your dog Walker?’ Finally found a dbs cleared, fully insured local who listens to what I say and does it. Bear is still wary of other dogs and can be protective of the pups, so gets a separate walk. If the dog walker isn’t right, then change, don’t be worried, you’re paying for a service!

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think you're probably over-stressing.
One of my dogs is extremely aloof, he'll stick his hand under your head for a pat and then decide when he's had enough and take himself off.

Re the clicker, the most important thing is that a behaviour is marked, not what it is marked with, so as mentioned, a tongue click or a word like Yep or Good will do.

Also, he's 8 so realistically, the reactivity will never be cured, only managed. It might be worth checking out his body language and the body language/breed/colour/size/ear/tail carriage of the dogs he is reacting to.

The most important thing is that he focuses on you/the walker to the extent that the other dogs are less important than what you have to offer. You get that by controlling/delivering resources like food/toys etc.

I think a lot of us get hung up on forcing the dog to interact/get too close to other dogs when they're just not social butterflies/don't want to.
As I said to my mother the other day when she suggested flooding, if I made her stand in a roomfull of long tailed rodents, even if I kept feeding her Jaffa Cakes and letting her play with her iPhone and telling her she was brave, she would still be pretty stressed.

 

[MuddyMonster]

You sound like you're doing really well, honestly. What a lucky dog he is ?

I amen a sign for 'Rescue - In Training'!

We've had our rescue dog eighteen months now & it's only fairly recently the dog has decided my OH can move around the house semi-freely and actually touch him ? That sounds mad written down but he's an ex European street dog that was returned and ended in a failed foster house because he wouldn't come out from their under their table (when he did he'd literally shake, sometimes growl and then wee himself apparently).

He might not be doing what the dog his age a few doors down does but he's made progress for him & its the improvement that matters. I'm sure your dog has made huge progress too.

Sure we still have days he's more nervous & reactive to do much more than plod around our local fields (hoping we don't meet anyone) and mainly wants to be left alone but he has other days when he's happily out for hours and wants tonnes of attention

It's hard but try not to compare him to other dogs - compare him to him a few months ago but don't be disheartened if it seems slow progress. You'll get wherever 'there' is to you, honestly.

Have a big hug though as the emotional roller coaster of life with a rescue dog can be huge (I had no idea how huge, sometimes) ?.

You do sound like you've totally got this

 

[Clodagh]

Nothing really to add to except Tawny is only friendly (to people) when it suits her. She actually grumbles if you go to find her to talk to her when she’s lying down.
All our dogs which used to sleep out used to go and sit on the doorway when they wanted to go to bed. Maybe it’s something like that? But then he realises he needs to go upstairs. I had a kelpie who pretty well lived under the bed!
Workers are so much quicker than show type, he probably does seem quick compared to Harvey.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Reading all this makes me think a tabard for the handler is needed to say something like 'Give space, Rescue dog' or whatever is appropriate. Would be more obvious than yellow leads, dog coats or the like.

 

[skinnydipper]

I would give him his space and not force attention on him. Let him come to you if he wishes. He may just wish to be close, lie beside your chair or at your feet and not necessarily wish to be stroked. If he wants to lie in another room don't stress about it.

Somebody asked me for advice concerning a reactive dog. I will copy my reply to them here, I've changed the breed. Something in it may be useful to you.

For behaviour modification to be successful it is important that the dog is kept under threshold*. She cannot learn when she is frightened and already reacting. She sounds very stressed and I would suggest giving her a little break from her trigger (other dogs) and let her relax.

When she does go out she should not be pressured to meet and interact with other dogs.

*Below threshold is when the lab is still coping and happy to take treats. If you observe her body language and she is showing signs of stress she is over threshold. If she is barking she is way over threshold.

Her owner needs to know at what distance she becomes stressed and maintain a distance from other dogs which is greater than that. Distance is important.

# Desensitisation and counter conditioning. Use extra special treats, cooked chicken for example, and use it only to reward the desired behaviour. For example when she sees another dog at a distance she is comfortable with and doesn't react, "good girl" in a happy voice, reward with chicken and move away - not towards the other dog. Moving away is also a reward.

If another dog is approaching and it would be difficult to maintain distance, don't panic and show stress instead say (jolly voice again) "lets go" and walk/run the other way, cross the road or whatever. Make a game of it. Reward a successful escape game but not with the "very special treat", keep that for the counter conditioning.

The dog needs to know that she can trust her owner to keep her safe.

Basically what you are aiming for is for the lab to see another dog and look to her owner for her special reward. Pairing the scary thing with something positive (counter conditioning).

Gradually you will be able to decrease the distance between her and other dogs but it is important not to rush things.

In the early days I would avoid busy areas where it is more difficult to control her environment. You don't want her to be overwhelmed.

The owner might find it helpful to buy a Yellow Dog vest or leash sleeve stating that the dog needs space.

Also useful to teach is "watch me", for the times when a close encounter is unavoidable it gives the dog an alternative behaviour to perform instead of focusing on the scary thing.

# Lab's owner could enlist the help of doggy friends and set up training sessions as above.

I know from experience that behavioural modification does work. It doesn't happen overnight and your friend will need a lot of patience but she can celebrate each small success and know that by helping her dog to change her emotional state and decrease her stress, she is improving her dog's quality of life.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Thanks everyone for replying - I honestly don't know what I'd do without you lot.

I'm sure that you are doing fine. If you want to do clicker training but haven't enough hands, click your tongue, you can never lose it.
We are walking a friend's 8 month old Lab pup and I can certainly identify how you feel about people getting in the way of your training. There are some complete idiots about!
So long as Buddy isn't being destructive, I wouldn't worry too much about where he is lying but I do remember we had a Lab bitch, many years ago who, as she got older, would take herself off and lie away from our other dogs. Eventually she was diagnosed with and treated for arthritis/rheumatism and I think the lying by herself was an early sign of this. As he is no longer young, it might be worth giving him a supplement like YouMove for his joints.
You won't need to rehome the dogs, even if you do have to go into the office every day, that's the beauty of having 2 dogs, they keep each other company and with a dogwalker, that's your problem solved! GS' advice to walk the dogs with a DW a few times is good.

ETA, I forgot about the cuddles, cuddle him as much as you want and he will tolerate, so long as he won't think that you are rewarding anti-social behaviour.

Thanks Pearl Very good point on the tongue clicking - I wonder how long it would have taken me to realise that!

Thank you also for the reassurance. I know that literally all they do is sleep all morning and all afternoon, even when I'm here. I think, once it has happened a few times and once the walker and the boys get used to each other, it should all settle down.

I was wondering about a joint supplement - we started Harvey on YouMove+ a while ago. They have just gone up to just over £30 a month, just for Harvey, which is a bit scary biscuits, so I might have a look around for an equivalent - I feel like YouMove is very much a known brand, and that there are probably people doing their own brand out there.

Relax a wee bit, you’ve had him 3 months (blow me, is it that long?!) I was reading how it takes 3 months to get a dog to settle. It sounds like he’s very relaxed, going upstairs alone surely demonstrates that he’s confident/happy? Jake did this a lot, Bear now does it, he just can’t be doing with the energetic toddlers in the morning.

Some dogs aren’t into cuddles, Mitch prefers not to be too close to our faces and is on the floor rather than our knee, unlike his brother. I imagine you’re letting him dictate the pace with cuddles, so just breathe and let him be himself. There’s no right or wrong, they’re all different, as my neighbour likes to remind me!

Working with a trainer is brilliant, as long as it’s the right one, took me 4 go’s to find the right one. If you feel you’re making progress, stick with it. It’s very early days. You’re doing a great job if he wants to be close to you when in the same area.

As for the dog Walker, I filtered a lot of frankly mad people eg ‘My sister knows what a dog looks like, can she be your dog Walker?’ Finally found a dbs cleared, fully insured local who listens to what I say and does it. Bear is still wary of other dogs and can be protective of the pups, so gets a separate walk. If the dog walker isn’t right, then change, don’t be worried, you’re paying for a service!

I know, CT, it has gone QUICK. I did wonder if it was a sign of being relaxed or being a bit stressed, going away to his own space. At the moment, he seems really chilled wherever he is. Although I got a book delivered yesterday and it must have fallen right on to him when it came through the door!

Most definitely letting him dictate with cuddles, but I can literally hold him and his head (he likes his head cuddled) for what feels like hours and he never pulls away or looks resigned. We did take a step back when he was pushing boundaries, but I think now we might have reached a happy medium. Also, I love cuddling him - he has a nice smell (when his mouth is closed! - we're working on that and I think his teeth are improving).

I worry more that they will be too much for the walker and we were extremely lucky to find her, but I also hope she will see improvement soon, so think I'll cross my fingers!

I think you're probably over-stressing.
One of my dogs is extremely aloof, he'll stick his hand under your head for a pat and then decide when he's had enough and take himself off.

Re the clicker, the most important thing is that a behaviour is marked, not what it is marked with, so as mentioned, a tongue click or a word like Yep or Good will do.

Also, he's 8 so realistically, the reactivity will never be cured, only managed. It might be worth checking out his body language and the body language/breed/colour/size/ear/tail carriage of the dogs he is reacting to.

The most important thing is that he focuses on you/the walker to the extent that the other dogs are less important than what you have to offer. You get that by controlling/delivering resources like food/toys etc.

I think a lot of us get hung up on forcing the dog to interact/get too close to other dogs when they're just not social butterflies/don't want to.
As I said to my mother the other day when she suggested flooding, if I made her stand in a roomfull of long tailed rodents, even if I kept feeding her Jaffa Cakes and letting her play with her iPhone and telling her she was brave, she would still be pretty stressed.

Thanks CC. You are so right and managing reactivity and it not ever going away, but I hadn't thought of it like that. I also like your line about simply marking behaviour - currently we do "yes", "good", "super" - but thinking of it like that makes it much simpler. I thought I'd try the clicker on the lunchtime walk today (not always using it, sometimes using the cues he knows and did try a tongue click as well as I read the replies beforehand) and it was like a lightbulb went on in his head. I don't know what it is, but I think he might be quite a sensory dog (sounds a bit nuts!) and sometimes a noise, rather than voice, is more of a reward?

He has a clear preference towards other dogs - if they are minding their own business, he minds his, but if they are at the end of their lead, pulling, staring, looking at him, etc, he reacts. The smaller and fluffier the dog, the worse he is, but I've a feeling he won't have encountered many small fluffy dogs before!

He did insanely well with an off lead collie puppy who came right up to us at lunch - he was desperate to play but at the same time, desperate to focus on me and I was so proud of him.

You sound like you're doing really well, honestly. What a lucky dog he is ?

I amen a sign for 'Rescue - In Training'!

We've had our rescue dog eighteen months now & it's only fairly recently the dog has decided my OH can move around the house semi-freely and actually touch him ? That sounds mad written down but he's an ex European street dog that was returned and ended in a failed foster house because he wouldn't come out from their under their table (when he did he'd literally shake, sometimes growl and then wee himself apparently).

He might not be doing what the dog his age a few doors down does but he's made progress for him & its the improvement that matters. I'm sure your dog has made huge progress too.

Sure we still have days he's more nervous & reactive to do much more than plod around our local fields (hoping we don't meet anyone) and mainly wants to be left alone but he has other days when he's happily out for hours and wants tonnes of attention

It's hard but try not to compare him to other dogs - compare him to him a few months ago but don't be disheartened if it seems slow progress. You'll get wherever 'there' is to you, honestly.

Have a big hug though as the emotional roller coaster of life with a rescue dog can be huge (I had no idea how huge, sometimes) ?.

You do sound like you've totally got this

Thanks so much MM! Your post made me feel so warm and fuzzy! I am lucky to have 2 amazing dogs, to be honest. I wouldn't be without them! So they may be lucky to live like kings, but I am luckier. I think I fall into the trap of worrying about them far too much though, because I care so much.

Your dog sounds really lovely, and what a great home he has now. I just wish everyone knew how far your dog has come to be at this point, and how far Harvey and Buddy have come - it's not always easy to explain when you're deliberately legging it in the opposite direction so as to avoid a possible situation!

Today, after the successful lunchtime walk, I do feel like I've got this! But also, the reassurance everyone has typed out goes a really, really long way and I am so grateful for that. I feel like it's the kick up the bum I needed, but I can't necessarily see it happening as it's happening to me.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Nothing really to add to except Tawny is only friendly (to people) when it suits her. She actually grumbles if you go to find her to talk to her when she’s lying down.
All our dogs which used to sleep out used to go and sit on the doorway when they wanted to go to bed. Maybe it’s something like that? But then he realises he needs to go upstairs. I had a kelpie who pretty well lived under the bed!
Workers are so much quicker than show type, he probably does seem quick compared to Harvey.

I also think that Harvey is verryyyyy slloooowwwww, so that might be why there's even more of a contrast, bless his cotton socks!

I hadn't thought of it like that (going out to sleep, so therefore, being by the door, ready). I sometimes wonder what he would do if we suddenly produced an outdoor kennel - he might be over the moon! That's not going to happen, sadly for him, but I accept he might just like chilling by the door. The going to bed routine is one thing he aces every night, and he has it perfectly. He doesn't sleep much in the day, so maybe he is actually quite grateful for the rest at night.

Reading all this makes me think a tabard for the handler is needed to say something like 'Give space, Rescue dog' or whatever is appropriate. Would be more obvious than yellow leads, dog coats or the like.

A tabard would be much more obvious. He does have a NERVOUS lead, which is also yellow, but unless you're up close, it just looks like a bright yellow lead. Also, yellow gets dirty very quickly...! I'm off to look for a tabard as we are going to start taking him to busier places to build things up and I think that would help.

I would give him his space and not force attention on him. Let him come to you if he wishes. He may just wish to be close, lie beside your chair or at your feet and not necessarily wish to be stroked. If he wants to lie in another room don't stress about it.

Somebody asked me for advice concerning a reactive dog. I will copy my reply to them here, I've changed the breed. Something in it may be useful to you.

For behaviour modification to be successful it is important that the dog is kept under threshold*. She cannot learn when she is frightened and already reacting. She sounds very stressed and I would suggest giving her a little break from her trigger (other dogs) and let her relax.

When she does go out she should not be pressured to meet and interact with other dogs.

*Below threshold is when the lab is still coping and happy to take treats. If you observe her body language and she is showing signs of stress she is over threshold. If she is barking she is way over threshold.

Her owner needs to know at what distance she becomes stressed and maintain a distance from other dogs which is greater than that. Distance is important.

# Desensitisation and counter conditioning. Use extra special treats, cooked chicken for example, and use it only to reward the desired behaviour. For example when she sees another dog at a distance she is comfortable with and doesn't react, "good girl" in a happy voice, reward with chicken and move away - not towards the other dog. Moving away is also a reward.

If another dog is approaching and it would be difficult to maintain distance, don't panic and show stress instead say (jolly voice again) "lets go" and walk/run the other way, cross the road or whatever. Make a game of it. Reward a successful escape game but not with the "very special treat", keep that for the counter conditioning.

The dog needs to know that she can trust her owner to keep her safe.

Basically what you are aiming for is for the lab to see another dog and look to her owner for her special reward. Pairing the scary thing with something positive (counter conditioning).

Gradually you will be able to decrease the distance between her and other dogs but it is important not to rush things.

In the early days I would avoid busy areas where it is more difficult to control her environment. You don't want her to be overwhelmed.

The owner might find it helpful to buy a Yellow Dog vest or leash sleeve stating that the dog needs space.

Also useful to teach is "watch me", for the times when a close encounter is unavoidable it gives the dog an alternative behaviour to perform instead of focusing on the scary thing.

# Lab's owner could enlist the help of doggy friends and set up training sessions as above.

I know from experience that behavioural modification does work. It doesn't happen overnight and your friend will need a lot of patience but she can celebrate each small success and know that by helping her dog to change her emotional state and decrease her stress, she is improving her dog's quality of life.

Thanks Skinny I just hope he's ok, but he gives off no stressed, sad or worried signals in the house, so he must be. He's made me realise just how quiet Harvey is!

Thinking of a threshold is really useful, thank you. Our trainer always says "set him for success" but recognising his threshold would be really important. I might start videoing a few things on walks and seeing if watching it back helps - when you're walking, it's over quite quickly and you move on. What you explained there makes complete sense and matches what we're already doing, just explains it in more detail, which is very helpful, thank you. That last line nearly made me cry, and talking about trust - I think I can see it coming, but it's easy to lose sight, so thank you for writing that down.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Just to say separately, thank you all so, so much for all your posts. I bang on and on, but I cannot thank you all enough. If I can do anything in return, please say, although my only real strengths are crochet, cake making and making pot stands of old bottle tops... Don't know if any of those things appeal?!

Thank you all so much

 

[CorvusCorax]

He has a clear preference towards other dogs - if they are minding their own business, he minds his, but if they are at the end of their lead, pulling, staring, looking at him, etc, he reacts. The smaller and fluffier the dog, the worse he is, but I've a feeling he won't have encountered many small fluffy dogs before!

He did insanely well with an off lead collie puppy who came right up to us at lunch - he was desperate to play but at the same time, desperate to focus on me and I was so proud of him.

OK so if a guy came up to you up the street, staring you out, circling his fists, you'd probably say 'back off, mate'.
Small fluffy angry dogs can also present as, well, prey.
I think we expect a lot of dogs to be completely neutral in the face of rude behaviour, the key is just distracting and getting focus on you rather than neutralising what, for a lot of dogs, is a natural behaviour to a what they feel is a credible threat, or, lunch.

 

[Kat_Bath]

OK so if a guy came up to you up the street, staring you out, circling his fists, you'd probably say 'back off, mate'.
Small fluffy angry dogs can also present as, well, prey.
I think we expect a lot of dogs to be completely neutral in the face of rude behaviour, the key is just distracting and getting focus on you rather than neutralising what, for a lot of dogs, is a natural behaviour to a what they feel is a credible threat, or, lunch.

Absolutely. And I completely understand why he gets so upset, especially because when a dog is truly minding its own business, he couldn't give two hoots, so it is very obvious. I hadn't thought of it as a dog being rude before though - that makes a lot of sense. Now you've said that as well, I wonder if a bit of comes down to the bond and trust, like skinnydipper said, and that he's still to realise we can keep him safe. These are all really interesting ways of looking at it - I always think I'm guilty of anthropomorphising my dogs, but in reality, the behaviours are similar? Also, I find it difficult to look in on the situations we deal with as I'm dealing with them at the time. Whereas I bet someone could observe us, like our trainer, and say "that was quite normal, really".

 

[Clodagh]

If he has worked, he probably has very little experience with ‘rude’ dogs. Most working dogs blank others out shooting, as they are too focussed on work and hopefully aggressive ones are not welcome.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yep, he needs to trust you to take care of the situation, which you can help by using your body language, strong, calm, have your dog beside or behind you, not out in front feeling 'exposed', generally having an assertive yet relaxed demeanour. If you're tense, worried, expecting a row, a row will surely develop.

 

[Kat_Bath]

If he has worked, he probably has very little experience with ‘rude’ dogs. Most working dogs blank others out shooting, as they are too focussed on work and hopefully aggressive ones are not welcome.

I think so too - I think he lived quite a sheltered life. Plus, I think he had to make noise to get attention, and it'll take him a while to realise he doesn't necessarily need to do that anymore.

Yep, he needs to trust you to take care of the situation, which you can help by using your body language, strong, calm, have your dog beside or behind you, not out in front feeling 'exposed', generally having an assertive yet relaxed demeanour. If you're tense, worried, expecting a row, a row will surely develop.

Thanks CC - I think we could do more to help him for sure and interesting you say not out in front as I have already noticed he is different if he gets the opportunity to be ahead and we come across another dog. We actually shortened his lead recently, so he is closer by default. I do try and put myself between him and the other dog(s) should a situation arise, so will keep doing that. I really like this way of thinking of it - it makes me feel more like a leader, rather than someone who is just trying to help him through these situations. Thank you

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Aw bless you! I'm glad you posted and have been able to get some helpful replies and feel supported. I don't know if you do any social media but I've found as useful a resource it can be, there's also a lot of black and white "it must be done like this!" But when you're trying to translate this into the real world and into real life it can just make you feel like you're falling short all the time or doing the wrong thing.

Sounds like you're putting great work into helping Buddy and that counts for a lot! Many dogs have challenges but I think you can tell owners who care and are at least trying, even if they've not figured it out yet. Buddy is lucky to have an owner who cares about his point of view and is ready to be there to help him through the tricky things.

Ivy can be a bit aloof. She goes through phases of hanging out on the sofa with us in the evening for a proper big snuggle but often is in her crate. She'll come in for a cuddle in the morning and is very sweet, but it's on her own terms. She used to wait on the sofa when we went out, then more often we'd come home and she'd gone to bed, now she maybe acknowledges we're leaving from her bed and will gently toddle up for a quick greeting when we get back.

I can relate to dog walker anxiety. I've given up looking! It's why Ivy has come to stay with me at OH's parents' while I'm working here. But even then I've been so anxious about that and whether she would be okay/behave.

Sometimes Ivy is really settled and I think 'oh god she must be ill!' But then probably she's still got settling in to do and we'll see changes from her yet. I never predicted how much I'd love her and how much I would worry!

 

[Kat_Bath]

Aw bless you! I'm glad you posted and have been able to get some helpful replies and feel supported. I don't know if you do any social media but I've found as useful a resource it can be, there's also a lot of black and white "it must be done like this!" But when you're trying to translate this into the real world and into real life it can just make you feel like you're falling short all the time or doing the wrong thing.

Sounds like you're putting great work into helping Buddy and that counts for a lot! Many dogs have challenges but I think you can tell owners who care and are at least trying, even if they've not figured it out yet. Buddy is lucky to have an owner who cares about his point of view and is ready to be there to help him through the tricky things.

Ivy can be a bit aloof. She goes through phases of hanging out on the sofa with us in the evening for a proper big snuggle but often is in her crate. She'll come in for a cuddle in the morning and is very sweet, but it's on her own terms. She used to wait on the sofa when we went out, then more often we'd come home and she'd gone to bed, now she maybe acknowledges we're leaving from her bed and will gently toddle up for a quick greeting when we get back.

I can relate to dog walker anxiety. I've given up looking! It's why Ivy has come to stay with me at OH's parents' while I'm working here. But even then I've been so anxious about that and whether she would be okay/behave.

Sometimes Ivy is really settled and I think 'oh god she must be ill!' But then probably she's still got settling in to do and we'll see changes from her yet. I never predicted how much I'd love her and how much I would worry!

Thanks SP thank you for your kind words! I can relate to the social media thing - I'm quite careful and limit just how many people I follow etc, but then forget everyone is different.

I'm hoping the walker coming in twice next week, and 2 days in a row as well, will help. It's funny how all this has made me get to know Harvey as well, and he does appear to have got a little calmer and wiser!

Your last line about love and worry is SO true. I didn't think I could love dogs anymore, but turns out I can. I think it's the training and working with them. The 3 years of training we've done with Harvey have paid dividends! I'm not convinced Buddy is learning much from him though, because I think Buddy is more of a leader and more independent, but I hope he is watching! Anything Buddy hasn't quite got yet Harvey comes along, chest all puffed out, "I'll show you, I can do it!", bless him!

 

[Sandstone1]

You do not really need a clicker. you can use a word instead. does not matter what word. A short word that you do not use for anything else. use that instead of a clicker.

 

[FestiveG]

When we got the rotters, they were the first pups without an older dog for many years. One of the first things we realised was that they didn't "speak" English and I think that many "new" dogs learned from those already here.
I think it is a bit like when a child visits a friends house and discovers that each family has their own rules about things, dogs being introduced to a new home has to learn the tradition of that home iyswim.