Damaged Mouth Bar

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BonneMaman

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I had the dentist out to my mare last Monday and he told me and showed me a bloody great hole in her off side lower mouth bar. Very shocking - it is probably around a cm across at it's widest point.

I must add at this point that I do not feel that I have been heavy handed with her but I have had to recently ride her in a happy mouth straight bar pelham as she has a bad nap and spin problem. The pelham has actually helped this.

Questions is...what can I do to help this other than the obvious resting? And, what can I do to prevent it happening again? She is a pretty sensitive soul - she gets bad girth galls if I don't ride in a fleece girth cover - could this have anything to do with it?
 
I have one who will do this to himself out hunting. I keep my hands still and he saws his head from side to side to get away from me to get to the fence before I want him to! I have found that a mikmar works brilliantly with him, much better than a pelham, and I also wrap it in latex. You might well be better off in a latex wrapped metal bit than a bendy nylon one that she doesn't respect.

Don't blame yourself too much, a hole that size is shocking (mine had one each side!) but you have to be safe, and sometimes they will hurt themselves because they don't want to be controlled, and not because you have bad hands.
 
What do you mean by hole?? is the bone itself damaged or just the flesh ?

If its the flesh you might want to think about a combination bit, like the mylers. As they work on the poll, nose and curb, before the mouth, so you can use less rein pressure for better brakes.
 
my dentist found a similar but less severe in one of mines mouths. the horse was also ridden in a straight bar happy mouth pelham. i was advised to use a double jointed bit. although a happy mouth straight bar sounds gentle it sits right on the bars of the horses mouth and continually applies pressure to them. i would agree with scallyways that using any bit to disperse the pressure over different areas is the way forward until your horses mouth has healed.
 
Crikey - no! Not the bone - blimey that would be awful, it's bad enough being just the flesh.

It has healed up now - gave her last weekend off so it will be 2 weeks on the 8th so am going to ride again this weekend.

I have bought her a loose ring happy mouth snaffle and a D ring rubber coated snaffle - which do you think might be better?

She is quite heavy in the hand and need to work on that but as she is very very green that will come in time.

Thanks for all the advice by the way.
 
I have used a Hackamore (bitless bridle) with great success when my big boy had a cut in the corner of his lip - it took weeks to heal. No problem, I even had my dressage lessons with Richard Davison in it! You will be surprised just how much control you have. Try it first in an arena if you're not sure how your horse will go in it. Good luck.
 
BonneMaman said:
I had the dentist out to my mare last Monday and he told me and showed me a bloody great hole in her off side lower mouth bar. Very shocking - it is probably around a cm across at it's widest point.

I must add at this point that I do not feel that I have been heavy handed with her but I have had to recently ride her in a happy mouth straight bar pelham as she has a bad nap and spin problem. The pelham has actually helped this.

Questions is...what can I do to help this other than the obvious resting? And, what can I do to prevent it happening again? She is a pretty sensitive soul - she gets bad girth galls if I don't ride in a fleece girth cover - could this have anything to do with it?
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I think that the best way to never have this happen again is to not use a bit. The mouth really is too sensitive a place to put anything attached to our hands. I cant imagine how painfull this must have been for her when she was ridden.

This video shows what the bit does in the horses mouth, and pretty much all bits work on the bars of the mouth too.

Sorry to sound harsh, bit it does bug me when there is a very easy way to make sure your horse never gets a sore mouth. I just wish more people would realise that the bit hurts horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-aV0Rsxmg
 
Jenny when you fancy a day out hunting on my horse in a hackamore do let me know. You will need your own insurance because I certainly wouldn't vouch for you being alive at the end of the day :)

I'm sorry but your video is daft. I don't put chairs in my horses mouths.
 
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cptrayes said:
Jenny when you fancy a day out hunting on my horse in a hackamore do let me know. You will need your own insurance because I certainly wouldn't vouch for you being alive at the end of the day :)

I'm sorry but your video is daft. I don't put chairs in my horses mouths.
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I wouldnt ride him in a hackamore. Dont much like them. But id certainly reschool him easy enough to not need a bit.

ps im anti hunt but certainly a cross country gallop would be fun.
I dont need to pull his teeth out to teach him to stop.
 
Anti hunt? Why? We hunt a man dragging scent or a trail laid by horses feet, it's a drag hunt.

Reschool him so that you can ride a horse who lives to jump 6 foot hedges and is a natural front runner, so he won't pull in a crowd of 50 to 100 horses? In your dreams.
 
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The mere fact that somthing CAN be done ,In certain circumstances is no grounds to criticise someone for not doing so. I thought it pretty offensive to even suggest that the fault was the op,s for using a bit. And it seems that even a hackamore is not acceptable too. Most of the time ,one guides a horse but there are times when one must be able to physicaly control a horse . I would never give a horse the casting vote where safety is concerned. And yes,if I think someone is spouting dangerous nonsense I will call them what they are.
 
The way I read it, JH was not criticising OP in particular, just stating the obvious.

OP obviously is a concerned owner who cares about her horse and wants to make things better. I would have to agree that using a bit in these circumstances would not be in the horse's best interests.

You wouldn't ride a horse with girth/saddle galls till they were healed. You wouldn't ride a horse with a leg/foot injury till it was healed. Just because a) you can't see the bars of the mouth or b) the horse caused the injury itself (Would it have happened if there was no bit?) does that make it OK to continue?

Frankly I wouldn't have the nerve to ride CP's horse with or without a bit, but I would hate to think I had been the cause of such an injury, even unintentionally, and I think OP agrees, otherwise she wouldn't be asking for help.
 
I dont really think that its the tools we use to train the horse, but how we use them. I do truly believe that any horse in this world can be ridden without a bit. And without a bridle too.
When we start a young horse, most people long rein, right? So instead of using pressure on the horses mouth, we use pressure on the nose for control. Whats the difference really? If the horse learns to be controlled this way, its no different from using a bit.

It has nothing to do with the horses temperment. its got a lot more to do with training. If you teach a horse to stop with a light touch, he wll stop with a light touch. If you teach him to stop by pulling, he may learn to pull back. Just because a horse is more excitable, doesnt mean he is any less capable of learning to stop lightly.
If the bit was such a succesfull means of control, then why are there so many types on the market? I know all horses are different, but surely if the bit was so good, we wouldnt need such strong devices as available to train a horse. so many issues can be solved by taking away the bit. Needing a flash/grakle/drop, headshaking, pulling, rearing, refusing jumps, taking off.

I know my opinions may bother some people, but i wont apologise. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion.

Sorry for the rant, i know im not gonna change peoples views on the matter, i just wanted to explain where i was coming from.
 
Strangely enough ,I have to say that a great deal of what you say,I also believe to be correct,and on that basis please accept my apology. I do however believe that a horses temprament and upbringing from birth have very marked effects.Irish horses seem to learn to think for themselves and certainly come up with some very different views to their riders. Some horses are just too in love with their job xcountry, racing or hunting,to listen when their blood is up. You can school them all you like and they may stop with the lightest of aids ,but put a running pack of hounds in front of them and it all goes out the window. I do so agree that a tug of war is pointless but the tug of war is started by the horse and it is a battle that often a rider simply cannot afford to loose for their own safety. I felt(rightly or wrongly ) that your post was critical and unhelpfull and it angered me. The OP has a serious problem here and is concerned.
My own advice would be to wash the sores twice daily with salt water then slap "Bonjela" on . rest the mouth for 10 days. Then use a simple rubber pelham (dont use the curb chain ,its just easier to find a rubber pelhan than a rubber straight bar).Keep things simple and avoid a tug of war till the mouth heals. A lot of mouth problems originate in a weak neck and an inability of the horse to carry itself properly. Horse needs to learn to carry itself and soften to the contact. Flatwork and miles and miles of hacking.
 
Jennyharvey said:
I dont really think that its the tools we use to train the horse, but how we use them. I do truly believe that any horse in this world can be ridden without a bit. And without a bridle too.
When we start a young horse, most people long rein, right? So instead of using pressure on the horses mouth, we use pressure on the nose for control. Whats the difference really? If the horse learns to be controlled this way, its no different from using a bit.

It has nothing to do with the horses temperment. its got a lot more to do with training. If you teach a horse to stop with a light touch, he wll stop with a light touch. If you teach him to stop by pulling, he may learn to pull back. Just because a horse is more excitable, doesnt mean he is any less capable of learning to stop lightly.
If the bit was such a succesfull means of control, then why are there so many types on the market? I know all horses are different, but surely if the bit was so good, we wouldnt need such strong devices as available to train a horse. so many issues can be solved by taking away the bit. Needing a flash/grakle/drop, headshaking, pulling, rearing, refusing jumps, taking off.

I know my opinions may bother some people, but i wont apologise. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion.

Sorry for the rant, i know im not gonna change peoples views on the matter, i just wanted to explain where i was coming from.
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It has nothing to do with the horses temperament? If you sincerely believe this then I can only believe that you simply have not come across enough horses yet. My first big hunter could be ridden with reins of cotton. My current one, similar size and breeding, will hurt his own mouth by sawing it on the bit (before I discovered the right bit for him, a mikmar) even if I keep my own hands completely steady. I bought both of them unbroken and broke them myself. Neither had ever been ridden by anyone but me. Both of them were hedge jumpers of great ability. The difference? Completely different temperaments.

By the way, most long reining is done with the reins on a bit, not on nose pressure.
 
cptrayes said:
It has nothing to do with the horses temperament? If you sincerely believe this then I can only believe that you simply have not come across enough horses yet. My first big hunter could be ridden with reins of cotton. My current one, similar size and breeding, will hurt his own mouth by sawing it on the bit (before I discovered the right bit for him, a mikmar) even if I keep my own hands completely steady. I bought both of them unbroken and broke them myself. Neither had ever been ridden by anyone but me. Both of them were hedge jumpers of great ability. The difference? Completely different temperaments.

By the way, most long reining is done with the reins on a bit, not on nose pressure.
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I dont think that if a horse is hot headed, its any less capable of learning to stop on a light cue. Thats all i meant. But its also how we train them too that matters.

And yes most long reining is done on a bit, but what i was meaning is that if you long rein on a headcollar or bitless using nose pressure, the horse will learn to stop and steer the same way as if it was using a bit. So if a horse is trained using nose pressure, its really no different from using mouth pressure. To much emphasis is put on having a horse on the bit, when the horse should really be in an outline or on the bridle. Then it doesnt matter what you use for riding. The bit is errelevent(sp).
 
There is absolutely no way I am going to ride her in a bitless bridle or basically a headcollar! She will try to kill me!

I thought about a hackamore but again was not that convinced that she would behave.

Anyway, her mouth is fully healed and I have a french linked fulmer in there now and she went very well this weekend. Albeit she managed to get me off by shying violently! My own fault - I really should have seen it coming and hung on better! Caught me napping badly!

Anyway, watched the video and was pretty confused by the chair in the mouth - never seen that design of bit....
 
BonneMaman said:
There is absolutely no way I am going to ride her in a bitless bridle or basically a headcollar! She will try to kill me!

I thought about a hackamore but again was not that convinced that she would behave.

Anyway, her mouth is fully healed and I have a french linked fulmer in there now and she went very well this weekend. Albeit she managed to get me off by shying violently! My own fault - I really should have seen it coming and hung on better! Caught me napping badly!

Anyway, watched the video and was pretty confused by the chair in the mouth - never seen that design of bit....
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Hehe you didnt watch it too closely lol. The chair wasnt representing a type of bit lol. What it was saying is that when you sit in an uncomfortable chair, you change positions to ease discomfort. Same as what the horse does with the bit. Thats all. Glad to here her mouth is all healed up.
 
My horse is 4 and green broke and has a hole in the side of her mouth right where the bit goes.

Her previous owner when breaking her out used a twisted wire and tied her face, which ruined her mouth and she now has a hole in the side of her mouth

when i first started riding her and starting her over i used a hack just to get her trust and i started working her in a bit, im using just a big snaffle because anything else is to small for the hole and will hurt it.

Its completely healed its been like 1 or 2 years since its happened, but she is so hard on the mouth now and i cannot put any pressure on her mouth or she throws her head and has a tantrum. She does not like to turn at all exspecially on that side of her mouth and im really gentle and barley touch her face. Shes fine at a walk but when i ask for a trot i cant half halt because if even put one pressure on her face she throws her head.

I just need some advise on what to do, i mean she is still a baby and green broke im the first person to ride her in like a year, but is it possible to completely train her with a hole in the side of her mouth?
 
What can I say. I believe we often look at things like this the wrong way round and forget to stop and ask why a horse is 'strong'. My belief is that I don't want to cause pain in my horses to control them. I don't want to have to 'fight' with them to get 'control' and especially when they fight against pain. Don't forget horses very often pull and try and resist the bit because it is bloomin hurting not because they want to 'fight' with us or impose their will. We make them fight, or more properly, resist imo.

I always like to think of the amount of pull we use on the reins sometimes and remember that pull is on the horses bars, tongue, lips and roof of the mouth.

I believe we make this all too personal... the horse is evading me, the horse wont do what I want, the horse wont listen to me. It's all about us when you think about it and never about the horse, what the horse might feel, what we might be doing to cause that behaviour/ 'resistance'... :confused:
The horse is evading pain not us! If it wanted to evade us it would buck us off and run for the hills...

Eta. BonneMaman, hope your horses mouth heals soon and good on you for asking how you can avoid this happening to her again.
 
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OP, my boy was in a happy mouth straightbar full cheek, and this rubbed the inside of his mouth too, not as bad as yours however, i think it could be a 'fault' on the material, i did read somewhere that happy mouths can leave sores on horses mouths... I now have mine in a myler, hanging cheek comfort snaffle for his flat, and on the look out for something for his sj, as he can be silly, spooky, and spins at the drop of a hat!
 
Jennyharvey said:
I think that the best way to never have this happen again is to not use a bit. The mouth really is too sensitive a place to put anything attached to our hands. I cant imagine how painfull this must have been for her when she was ridden.

This video shows what the bit does in the horses mouth, and pretty much all bits work on the bars of the mouth too.

Sorry to sound harsh, bit it does bug me when there is a very easy way to make sure your horse never gets a sore mouth. I just wish more people would realise that the bit hurts horses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-aV0Rsxmg
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That video is a load of b******t!

Of late I've been even more observent of how the bit works in the mouth, and will be getting photos sorted soon. The best way to see how it works is to use a cheeked snaffle - with no keepers - as we know that the mouthpiece is fitted at 90º to the cheek. Then watch the horse working and see where the cheeks sit. It's makes interesting viewing!

Agree with Mike007 re the treatment for the sores and Bonjela is amazing stuff.

Have reservations about the rubber bit though as unless the horse keeps the mouth shut and moist damp rubber can tear the skin. A Happymouth can get quite rough, but a mullen mouth vulcanite pelham may be the ideal bit.
 
Calculating with 1:10 yields 66 pounds (30kgs) of force (lbf) on each rein, which creates a pull of 132lbf (60kgsf)on each bar of the mouth. If the mouth of the horse doesn't yield to the pressure, a force of up to 1,323lbf (600kgf) occurs at the occipital bone (poll) approximately 10times the amount acting on the bars! Draw Reins mutiply this force.

Please don't be in any doubt as to how harsh your hands can be on a horse. Having said this you must always keep yourself safe.
 
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