Dangerous horse habit's. What would you do?

[lastchancer]

I'll try to keep this as short as I can....
I bought a horse last April as a project to bring on and sell.
This is what I have always done as a hobby, some have made a bit of profit, some have not, but I have never sold anything that hasn't been safe to ride and handle.
Well due to financial circumstances I am no longer in a postion to keep the latest one.

His good points;
Very kind nature
Easy snaffle mouth
No pulling
No Rearing
No Bucking, with a few exeptions - see below
No Napping
Not Fizzy
Not scared of any traffic
Loads and travels like a pro - you can take him anywhere

BUT
He is nervous of strangers - he went out on loan but had to come back as he had bucked the rider off before her botton was in the saddle.
He did the same to a rider on our yard a couple of times in a row
He has however been ridden by me since and was fine?
The bucking I think is a panic response triggered when he is nervous
Saddle issues - He is very girthy, if someone holds him and his girth is done up carefully he is ok. However if he is tied up he spins into you and crushes you against the wall.
Violently.
I have worked out ways to get round this but he will do it, he has caught me out today and if the stable wall hadn't given way my ribs and lungs would have.
He bucked me off early on after been broken, I believe that I scared him unwittingly, as he was going so well, I asked too much and he panicked. He has been ok since.

This is a 7YO horse who until september before last year had not been handled at all (then was very badly traumatised by someones methods of 'breaking' - think dope and hours and hours of lunging),
So, when he does react, he reacts like a feral horse rather than a well bought up 3YO. His issues have all been worked through and do improve with consistent work, however after a break he does regress, and also, I believe when he is in a new situation - hence the problems he had with the loan home.

He has had physio treatment on his back and neck, the physio and I now believe that his girthing issues are a pychological problem that has occured due to previous pain/bad experiance. Interestingly, I also ride him bareback and he is much happier. So it probably is the girthing rather than the weight he dislikes.

My dilemma now is what to do with him really;

1,Put him to sleep before he really hurts someone (he might not - he has a lot going for him and if I had an infinate bank balance and lots of time I'd damn well keep him until he was right)
2,Sell him to someone with a lot of experiance and hope they dont pass him on without sorting him / telling his buyer about his issues (again no reason to think that someone else couldn't get him right)
3,Try to find a permanent loan - a mine field in itself, although I did have him freezemarked. It's so difficult to find someone trustworthy who would manage him
4, Try to find somewere cheaper to keep him, easier said then done - this is not a horse that needs to be handled by kids/numpties and also I need facilities if I am to persevere with him

Just wondering what you guys would do?

 

[Tickles]

My first share horse wasn't a lot better than this one sounds. (Better, but still...)

Why not
- find cheapest place you can to keep him
- get an (experienced!) sharer to help with costs.

 

[WandaMare]

He sounds as though he has potential to be a good horse with time and patience, his negative points are at least manageable and its not as though they aren't likely to improve as his confidence grows. I would try and find an experienced person who wouldn't be fazed by his issues and if you can, sell him as a bargain. Sounds as though you have done a good job with him so far.

 

[HazyXmas]

I'm sorry but i would personally PTS.

There are so many nice, genuine horses out there that are in desperate need of good homes, why would anyone want to keep a dangerous one?

 

[varkie]

Personally I think I'd look to do a loan with a view to buy - which would give you the chance to make sure that the person is right for him, that he isn't too much for them, and that their intentions towards him are right.

There are precautions you can take to ensure a loan home is genuine - always have a contract, ask for a reference from a professional like a vet or farrier (that way you hopefully get someone who will tell you the truth - their professional reputation is at stake and they are answerable to a professional body), ask to see ID which proves both their reputation & home address (driving license for example), and visit the yard where they are going to be kept before you take horse there and talk to everyone there, also google all details they give you - phone number, email, address, name, etc.

If you do decide to go down this route, I'd suggest www.projecthorses.co.uk as a good place to advertise.

 

[Persephone]

Ok I have read it twice, so sorry if I missed it! Has the vet checked for ulcers?

 

[BigGinger]

i would second checking for ulcers, sounds alot like my boy who suffered seasonaly with ulcers. he was girthy and would bronc till u came off which was mixed with fear also. he s a different horse now he's been treated

 

[varkie]

Clearly, any horse with issues should be fully checked for any pain - and ulcers, kissing spines, pain in feet, pain in teeth are always first thoughts with these kinds of signs.

But from reading what the OP put, I gathered that the whole reason the horse is for sale is because finances are tight, and further training / investigation isn't possible?

 

[smellsofhorse]

Have you had him checked for ulcers?

Pts is a bit extreme, I'm sure you could fine a good home whether it was loan or sell.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would definatly check for ulcers.
But I would not pass him on if you don't what to keep going with him I would PTS for two reasons one he might fall into bad hands two he might really hurt someone.
I know a lot of people will think that's awful but I would really worry about him suffering badly in the wrong hands

 

[lastchancer]

Clearly, any horse with issues should be fully checked for any pain - and ulcers, kissing spines, pain in feet, pain in teeth are always first thoughts with these kinds of signs.

But from reading what the OP put, I gathered that the whole reason the horse is for sale is because finances are tight, and further training / investigation isn't possible?

Yes, thats right. If i had the money I would keep him, even as a pet/companion as he gets on very well with my other one. I have been looking for grazing/cheap livery for ages and haven even taken a tiny cheap paddock for him as an emergancy measure if I get really stuck - said paddock wouldn't support one/both for more than a couple of months though.

 

[Miss L Toe]

He has not killed anyone, so not that dangerous, sounds more like a horse in trouble than a vicious one.

 

[mightymammoth]

Yes, thats right. If i had the money I would keep him, even as a pet/companion as he gets on very well with my other one. I have been looking for grazing/cheap livery for ages and haven even taken a tiny cheap paddock for him as an emergancy measure if I get really stuck - said paddock wouldn't support one/both for more than a couple of months though.

what area are you looking in?

 

[lastchancer]

He sounds as though he has potential to be a good horse with time and patience, his negative points are at least manageable and its not as though they aren't likely to improve as his confidence grows. I would try and find an experienced person who wouldn't be fazed by his issues and if you can, sell him as a bargain. Sounds as though you have done a good job with him so far.

Yes when he's going well he's awesome, and it doesn't take that much to get him going, it's just that when it goes wrong he reacts very quickly and violently.A risk I am willing to take but don't really want to pass on. He came to me from a lady who had unwittingly bought him from a sale as 'An ideal novice mother daughter share' so thats not a situation I want to see him in again.

I'm sorry but i would personally PTS.

There are so many nice, genuine horses out there that are in desperate need of good homes, why would anyone want to keep a dangerous one?

This is precisley what I would and have said to others in a similar situation.
But this ones mine.....

Personally I think I'd look to do a loan with a view to buy - which would give you the chance to make sure that the person is right for him, that he isn't too much for them, and that their intentions towards him are right.

There are precautions you can take to ensure a loan home is genuine - always have a contract, ask for a reference from a professional like a vet or farrier (that way you hopefully get someone who will tell you the truth - their professional reputation is at stake and they are answerable to a professional body), ask to see ID which proves both their reputation & home address (driving license for example), and visit the yard where they are going to be kept before you take horse there and talk to everyone there, also google all details they give you - phone number, email, address, name, etc.

If you do decide to go down this route, I'd suggest www.projecthorses.co.uk as a good place to advertise.

He went out on LWVB and it ended up costing me a small fortune, in freezemarking, transport home when it went wrong and physio to sort him out after an accident he had whilst out. Not really the fault of the loaners, but not a risk I want to take again.
Unless someone local wanted to try him, but so far no takers.

Ok I have read it twice, so sorry if I missed it! Has the vet checked for ulcers?

Not as yet, if I get somewere to keep him I'll perhaps turn him away until I can afford to do this.
His teeth and back have both been checked (a good physio has been working with him).

 

[kippen64]

For the girthing problem, one of the stretchy Wintec girths done up very slowly and not too tight works an absolute treat. My TB would try to take off my head when girthing when I first bought him, and and the change of girth and technique solved the problem. It would take me five minutes to do the girth up when we first started and at the end I could do it in a normal, slow, gentle way. Remember, don't have your girth too tight. You can tighten it again after riding your warm up. Tight girths make for unhappy horses.

 

[lastchancer]

He has not killed anyone, so not that dangerous, sounds more like a horse in trouble than a vicious one.

Yet.
But no he isn't at all vicious, it's his kind temperament that has made me keep going with him. If he was a nasty a**hol* I would have had him pts.

 

[tabithakat64]

Personally, I'd get him scoped for uclers and x-rayed for kissing spine, I'd get different saddler and physio to look at him, see what they say and go from there.

A change of girth, saddlecloth etc it's amazing what a difference this can make to a sensit ive horse, also look at girthing up slowly and possibly lunging until he's relaxed before letting a strange rider on.

Lbook for somewhere cheaper to keep him nd look at his regime maybe introducing more turnout etc.

Two of mine are rescues and were badly behaved and had been labelled dangerous etc, with the right hndling, regime etc they are much improved.

 

[lastchancer]

For the girthing problem, one of the stretchy Wintec girths done up very slowly and not too tight works an absolute treat. My TB would try to take off my head when girthing when I first bought him, and and the change of girth and technique solved the problem. It would take me five minutes to do the girth up when we first started and at the end I could do it in a normal, slow, gentle way. Remember, don't have your girth too tight. You can tighten it again after riding your warm up. Tight girths make for unhappy horses.

Yeah he has one of those, once its on he's ok.
It's the 50mph bodyslam that comes just as you go to under his belly to put it on thats the issue.
He was initially horrified by the whole saddle/girthing thing and would bronc furiously when it was put on. Its always been the squeezing of the girth thats an issue.

 

[Fauvea]

The cheap way to go about ulcers is to treat the horse and see if is behavior improves. I would give it a go before I'd do anything else as ulcers are much more frequent than we think. Gastrogard is supposed to be the best, but you could also try out Protexin Pro-soothe pH or Protexin acid-ease (you should see a difference in 1 month of treatment).
You could also put him on magnesium if you don't already have him on that, it's really inexpensive and good for the stress heads.

 

[LaurenM]

I'd have the vet check him over for ulcers, kissing spine etc. If nothing was flagged up & turning away was not a valid option then pts.

 

[kippen64]

Yeah he has one of those, once its on he's ok.
It's the 50mph bodyslam that comes just as you go to under his belly to put it on thats the issue.
He was initially horrified by the whole saddle/girthing thing and would bronc furiously when it was put on. Its always been the squeezing of the girth thats an issue.

If it's the squeezing of the girth that is the issue, I would have to agree with the people who have suggested he might have ulcers. As regards him having an issue with the whole business of being saddled, it's possible that he has previously been ridden in a saddle that didn't fit and which caused pain and so now he associates saddles with pain. I have photos of my TB standing tied up, saddled with a saddle that fits him and he looks miserable. His former owner confessed to me that she had ridden him in a saddle that didn't fit. She realised that she had made a mess of him, wanted the best for him and sold him to me. He is now 17 and retired with a clicking knee and much prefers that to ever having been a ridden horse. You have done a grand job with you horse and if there is a person like me here in Australia, here's hoping that there is a person like me over there for your lovely horse. Cheers.

 

[lastchancer]

The cheap way to go about ulcers is to treat the horse and see if is behavior improves. I would give it a go before I'd do anything else as ulcers are much more frequent than we think. Gastrogard is supposed to be the best, but you could also try out Protexin Pro-soothe pH or Protexin acid-ease (you should see a difference in 1 month of treatment).
You could also put him on magnesium if you don't already have him on that, it's really inexpensive and good for the stress heads.

Thanks for that, I must confess, I know very little about ulcers so if do end up keeping him that'll perhaps be an option, although I'll have a vet look him over in any case.
I did have him on Magox for a while, didn't have much effect, if any.

 

[lastchancer]

If it's the squeezing of the girth that is the issue, I would have to agree with the people who have suggested he might have ulcers. As regards him having an issue with the whole business of being saddled, it's possible that he has previously been ridden in a saddle that didn't fit and which caused pain and so now he associates saddles with pain. I have photos of my TB standing tied up, saddled with a saddle that fits him and he looks miserable. His former owner confessed to me that she had ridden him in a saddle that didn't fit. She realised that she had made a mess of him, wanted the best for him and sold him to me. He is now 17 and retired with a clicking knee and much prefers that to ever having been a ridden horse. You have done a grand job with you horse and if there is a person like me here in Australia, here's hoping that there is a person like me over there for your lovely horse. Cheers.

I'd say its very probable that he's been worked in badly fitting tack.
Thanks for your encouraging words.
Now, how much would it cost to post him to Australia I wonder...

 

[Persephone]

Just to say I am not that up to date with ulcer treatment, but when my mare was treated a couple of years ago the only proven treatment was Gastroguard. It's pretty expensive stuff though so unless you have the proof of a scope you could be going around in circles!

Just didn't want you to spend a load on other treatments when it would be a waste of money. Gastroguard is the only treatment that will work, and it can take 2 or 3 cycles to get rid.

Having said all that, my mare went from a miserable, sluggish cold backed nightmare to the happiest horse you could meet. The difference was amazing.

 

[Tiffany]

I'm sorry but i would personally PTS.

There are so many nice, genuine horses out there that are in desperate need of good homes, why would anyone want to keep a dangerous one?

PTS is an easy option but I've known lots of quirky, considered dangerous horses come good with correct, sympathetic handling by an experienced person. It takes time and that's the issue, some people want everything now.

Just out of interest would you be so quick to PTS a dangerous human given the option?

 

[kippen64]

I'd say its very probable that he's been worked in badly fitting tack.
Thanks for your encouraging words.
Now, how much would it cost to post him to Australia I wonder...

Shucks. All happily embarrassed now. Difficult horses are something that I am pretty good at. The advice from other people on considering the ulcer angle is the road I'd go down. Cheers.

 

[lastchancer]

PTS is an easy option but I've known lots of quirky, considered dangerous horses come good with correct, sympathetic handling by an experienced person. It takes time and that's the issue, some people want everything now.

Just out of interest would you be so quick to PTS a dangerous human given the option?

No, Quicker.
Humans have an awareness of consiquesence (Oh! Seems I can't spell today) that animals lack.

Thats why it is futile to label horses problem/difficult/bombproof/perfect. They are animals and can only do what their training/background/present state of mind tells them to and that can change in a heartbeat.

I don't think PTS is ever an easy option for someone who has invested lots of blood, sweat, tears and time into an animal.

 

[YorksG]

What is he like if you fasten the girth on the 'wrong' side? We used to do this with a TbxWelsh, who had issues from being badly handled. She hated you doing things from the left, but if you put the saddle on from the right hand side and fastened the girth up on the right, she was fine. Might be worth a try.

 

[Wagtail]

Personally, I'd get him scoped for uclers and x-rayed for kissing spine, I'd get different saddler and physio to look at him, see what they say and go from there.

A change of girth, saddlecloth etc it's amazing what a difference this can make to a sensit ive horse, also look at girthing up slowly and possibly lunging until he's relaxed before letting a strange rider on.

Lbook for somewhere cheaper to keep him nd look at his regime maybe introducing more turnout etc.

Two of mine are rescues and were badly behaved and had been labelled dangerous etc, with the right hndling, regime etc they are much improved.

I agree with the above. Sounds like he has pain issues indicative of ulcers or kissing spine. Often these horses are more nervous with strangers because usually the people they know have methods of getting around their girthiness etc, but they obviously cannot trust strangers to be so careful.

 

[amandap]

I agree with the above. Sounds like he has pain issues indicative of ulcers or kissing spine. Often these horses are more nervous with strangers because usually the people they know have methods of getting around their girthiness etc, but they obviously cannot trust strangers to be so careful.

Agree here. Also generalized fear and nervousness can come with constant pain or discomfort.