Dangerous horses - where do you draw the line?

Lolo said:
That was it for us. This little mare was going for her once Al hit the ground and no horse is worth your safety. It was scary as she was doing massive twisty bucks and then pouncing. She's since been out of work completely as no one will touch her (the owner is not entirely impressed by this...) as they saw her in action. Pity as the mare was stunning- if you wanted the perfect looking little horse for a young rider, she was it in looks.

Interestingly, we have had other ponies who were also prone to telling you with their teeth but have dealt with it. One pony drew blood from mum as she happened to be standing near her when she was being girthed- she lunged, and mum was in the way. But she always did it and generally we stayed well away from her head and made sure others did too... That we could put up with as it was manageable and we did't tend to have non-horsey people near her without close supervision.
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Ugh to the first one. I hope someone naive doesn't come along and have a go with that one... :( :(
The thing about the 'telling you with their teeth' though - this just isn't 'normal' behaviour for a horse. it may be habitual for THAT horse, but only because, imho, it always hurts them, or they remember that it always hurts them so react defensively against it, before it does.. i've seen horses like this be treated (muscles around girth area gentle massaged and released etc), and/or a different saddle or girth used, and then the bitey behaviour totally ceases. Ignoring or cleverly evading the teeth doesn't cure the problem for the horse, iyswim...
 
kerilli said:
Ugh to the first one. I hope someone naive doesn't come along and have a go with that one... :( :(
The thing about the 'telling you with their teeth' though - this just isn't 'normal' behaviour for a horse. it may be habitual for THAT horse, but only because, imho, it always hurts them, or they remember that it always hurts them so react defensively against it, before it does.. i've seen horses like this be treated (muscles around girth area gentle massaged and released etc), and/or a different saddle or girth used, and then the bitey behaviour totally ceases. Ignoring or cleverly evading the teeth doesn't cure the problem for the horse, iyswim...
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No, and I totally agree- she did it because it hurt her and then became a habit. The trouble was, she had regular back checks and several vet checks but always trotted up sound and appeared to be happy in herself. Only when she was x-rayed with I think some dye of some form injected did it show she had sustained a previous injury to her withers which explained her behaviour- no longer hurt, but it had done a lot in the past.

ETA- same. Tellingly, owner won't put her own daughter on it. Luckily, where we live is a small place so news gets round fast about horses!
 
It's just such a difficult area the horse I was thinking of in my earlier posts was a Master Imp and was quirky and sharp but the mad broncing was a an other place to his ' normal ' quirkiness that's why it took us so long to get to the bottom of it.
I never judge people who are in similar situations because I know now how hard it can be to get to the bottom of things.
 
What Tarrsteps & Kerilli said!

I have only met one horse who I think was truely nasty with no pain casue. I'm sure I've told this story before so feel free to skip if it sounds familiar ;)
I was breaking in a bunch of 3yr olds all brought up together so similar handling etc and they all had a few hang ups - but basically no trust in people. But this one mare from the first moment I met her I got an bad feeling off her - this was looking at them all in a yard together.

To handle you had to be 100% on the ball with her as she'd take any opportunity to kick or bite if you gave her a chance. From the first time I sat on her I knew it was a matter of time till she had dumped me.
You could feel the resentment and dislike radiating off her.
I tried to be extra nice to her - spending extra time with her, giving her treats, didn't push her as much etc reasoning it might be a trust issue like the others. Made no difference at all.

When she did dump me it was deliberate and out of the blue.
I'd done my usual lunge before hopping on and all was calm and chilled. I hopped on she stood quietly and relaxed, then when I asked her to walk off took 3 steps and just launched into a serious rodeo display with no warning and ejected me forcibly into the sand.
I refused to ride her after that. She tried the same out of the blue approach with the next rider I left shortly after and am not sure what happened to her but did learn that her mum was known for being an evil cow...

ETS just seen your post about familes Tarrsteps! As I said her mum was a cow but she had an elder 1/2 sister (same dam different sire) who apparently was very sweet :cool:
 
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Mally is a biter and a kicker. Not to the extent of being dangerous IMO, but if you hurt her once, she doesn't forget and then she is always defensive. She had mud fever on her back legs when I bought her, so getting near them was a challenge and now even with it completely cleared up, if I'm in a rush and try to hurry doing back boots/studs/hoof oil/etc then she will get stressy and kick out. She isn't half as bad as she used to be and it's more of a wave of a leg than a kick these days, but it will always be her 'go to' move.
Same with her rugs and girth - her rug rubbed her shoulders once, and now doing up the front straps cause her to pull faces and threaten to bite; her girth rubbed her elbows out hunting and now doing it up causes lots of teeth gnashing. I have changed her girths, put bibs on her and the cause of the pain is no longer there, but she doesn't forget!
She requires tactful handling a lot of the time, telling her off is a sure fire way to stress her out and send her off the deep end, but in general she is a donkey to handle; to lead around I don't think I've ever had such a polite horse. And she more than makes up for it under saddle, so I guess I tolerate the 'quirks' because to me they have very little bearing on her as a horse in general. I also don't see her as dangerous, she is a horse I would trust with my life.
 
Umm I wouldn't go very far i'm afraid. I'm too muich of a self preservationist!!

I think there are lots of beautiful, talented horses out there that would easily do what I want to do and most of them aren't nutters, if I wanted to go to the olympics or something then maybe it would be a different matter!!

I wouldn't ride anything that didn't have sensibility. Saying that i'm happy with green, sensitive, slightly quirky horses as long as they are good hearted, willing and underneath it all want to work with me. My horse now can be a bit sharp but he's just a young switched on TB, as was my last horse but nothing bad, just what is normal. I wouldn't ride anything that frequently dumped me!

I think though that the horses i've always had have been blank canvases that have been easy to bring on into good horses or older esablished ones that came from decent homes and have never been mistreated or poorly trained.

Iv'e never had to unwravel too much. I just wouldn't want something with serious problems to unwravel no matter what it looked like.

I've never really known any horse to be truely nutty or dangerous apart from one and I think she had deep seated physical and psycological issues, shes a field ornament now I believe as really no-one could work with her.

Every other horse that iv'e come across has been pretty normal, maybe the odd moment of naughty behaviour but thats it.

If they have become a bit much something has always found out to be wrong. My mums old horse started bucking, big ones. We knew something was wrong as even though she was also a switched on TB that is just not normal behaviour for a horse so well trained and loved like her. In the end she had terrible kissing spines bless her, it was a miracle she let anyone on board at all, let alone try and work. Shes a broodmare now and a bautiful one at that :) (vet said she was 100% to breed from and she had fantastic breeding, temp and confo).
 
kirstyhen said:
Mally is a biter and a kicker. Not to the extent of being dangerous IMO, but if you hurt her once, she doesn't forget and then she is always defensive. She had mud fever on her back legs when I bought her, so getting near them was a challenge and now even with it completely cleared up, if I'm in a rush and try to hurry doing back boots/studs/hoof oil/etc then she will get stressy and kick out. She isn't half as bad as she used to be and it's more of a wave of a leg than a kick these days, but it will always be her 'go to' move.
Same with her rugs and girth - her rug rubbed her shoulders once, and now doing up the front straps cause her to pull faces and threaten to bite; her girth rubbed her elbows out hunting and now doing it up causes lots of teeth gnashing. I have changed her girths, put bibs on her and the cause of the pain is no longer there, but she doesn't forget!
She requires tactful handling a lot of the time, telling her off is a sure fire way to stress her out and send her off the deep end, but in general she is a donkey to handle; to lead around I don't think I've ever had such a polite horse. And she more than makes up for it under saddle, so I guess I tolerate the 'quirks' because to me they have very little bearing on her as a horse in general. I also don't see her as dangerous, she is a horse I would trust with my life.
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I think it's very different if it is definitely just 'warning off' behaviour (face pulling etc), i've had a horse gnash its teeth at me and catch my jacket by mistake, and it was incredibly shocked, I didn't even need to move a hand towards it, it knew it had gone way too far and couldn't have been more apologetic and nice after that!
i ignore the face pulling once i'm sure that's all it is, although i'll try to get to the bottom of it if possible.
having been bitten properly by a horse once (someone else's youngster, i was leaning over the gate chatting to her and it suddenly snaked its head out and bit me, for no reason, hard enough to really draw blood, hence my subsequent Sense of Humour Failure about bitey youngsters!), i'm not tolerant of biters at all. i knew of a hunt groom who got her humerus fractured by a bite. :( :( :(
my grey had sarcoids from the day I bought her and I often had to tend to them (and sometimes hurt her, unfortunately), getting them out, slathering them with various potions to get rid etc. she pulled lots of faces but she NEVER bit me, and I had her for yonks, including super-fit (and a lot of good-natured horses will get more antsy and threateny-bitey when super-fit). she kicked me once (post-xc, she was still a bit wired, and i went to put on her tail bandage) and i went Ape, she never did that again, ever! i think they're like kids in that respect, if they know the consequences, they won't do it... (goes straight to hell, obv.)
 
I was bitten on the arse :o by a horse a few weeks ago, it bled though my jods :o Sodding thing is apparently misunderstood, but I had my back to it, it came up behind me and properly sunk it's teeth in! Can't say I would have taken it home with me after that!! :mad:
 
kirstyhen said:
I was bitten on the arse :o by a horse a few weeks ago, it bled though my jods :o Sodding thing is apparently misunderstood, but I had my back to it, it came up behind me and properly sunk it's teeth in! Can't say I would have taken it home with me after that!! :mad:
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holy ****, ouch, "misunderstood'... jeez, its nose would have been disconnected from its head if that had been me.
imho there's NEVER NEVER any excuse at all for a horse biting or kicking someone who isn't doing something to it. never. self-defence mechanism is one thing, blatant aggression is another. ouch, poor you.
 
There is a lot of sensible advice, esp. Kerilli and Tarr Steps.

For riding, the worst would be no self preservation. Dangerous does not have to mean agressive. Friend said he put his point to pointer at a timber fence, horse caught his leg and fell, so he got back on and he did it again. I don't think I would be jumping that!

I had a grumpy mare who would pull faces and she manged to kick me once. She got a lot better with time and I found that she had been the survivor of twins, so probably had a lot of veterinary attention when little. She would weave a bit too, but she was fabulous to ride.

The very worst must be a horse that gets rid of the rider and then kicks them, deliberately. There is a big difference between falling off and horse and one getting rid of the rider. Or something that can't be controlled.

There may be well and good reasons why these things happened, but it doesn't always mean that they can be solved.
 
Orangehorse said:
For riding, the worst would be no self preservation. Dangerous does not have to mean agressive. Friend said he put his point to pointer at a timber fence, horse caught his leg and fell, so he got back on and he did it again. I don't think I would be jumping that!
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it's funny, i never even thought of 'dangerous' in that context, but of course. i've given up the ride on two different horses because they did NOT learn from their mistakes xc, in fact they did exactly the same horrible error a second time (each time to a simple, smallish fence where I know I got a good approach etc and gave them every opportunity to do it right) and nearly bit the dirt again.
for xc horses, my absolute PET hate, and i'll never ride one who does this, is one that chooses to ignore the rider and makes a bid for the fence (okay... they're his legs and body, i'll trust his judgement over the rider's even if it's me on top, loose horses seldom fall etc etc) but then changes his mind at the last stride and adds one into the bottom of the fence. then compounds that horrendous error of judgement by leaving his knees down and wearing the fence on the way up.
ugh. this sort of horse makes my blood run cold. i've seen it quite a few times, sat on it twice (see above) it's a devil of a habit to get out of because it's based on basic mistrust (not trusting the rider's judgement, then not trusting its own judgement or athleticism either) and it's a rotational waiting to happen... i'd rather the chuffing thing bottled it, at least then you're safely on the take-off side of the fence, embarrassed but not squashed!
this sort of horse needs to be gracefully retired to the dressage, hacking or sj spheres asap!
 
Yes perhaps the most dangerous type of horse is a kind easy one with no sense ot the importance of lifting it's legs out of the way of a fence .
 
Definitely when they're a danger to you and others - but it is difficult sometimes to call it a day.
I had the ride on a lovely grey 5yo - looked like a rocking horse and jumped like a stag, but when something in his brain blipped he'd just go. He did it once at home - over barbed wire and hedges, stopped (thankfully) by the railway line and we thought it was a one off. Then he did it at a hunter trial and jumped a car. Got sent straight back to his owner and as far as I know lived out his life on a Welsh hillside - we never really found out what was wrong with him.
My brother had to give up on two horses:
One would just bob off with anyone at the drop of a hat, or stand rearing (at 17hh a bit too big to mess about with), and he got asked not to bring him back to one centre, all the usual checks etc done - he ended up going back to the dealer he came from.
The other was a chestnut mare :rolleyes: who he tried and was fantastic, then when we went to pick her up from a show they didn't turn up as they had a flat tyre - odd :confused: but whatever, met them the following week and brought her home. First few times out absolutely fine, but then she started - absolutely kicking seven bales out of the lorry. She was never travelled alone and there was never an obvious cause, but she'd start from pulling out the drive. I travelled in the back one day and held her head to the roof which just about kept her back feet on the ground but wasn't ideal. We tried hobbling her, travelling her loose, backwards, in a trailer - whatever, she was just dangerous - they'd had a flat delivering her because she'd bounced the lorry so hard she burst the tyre - as we found out the hardway when she did it to ours :mad: on another occasion she put a hole in the roof of the lorry :eek: All this with another horse stood (somehow - bless him) perfectly calmly next to her. Because she was such a cow to travel we rang the local "meat man" I'm afraid and he came and took her away in his metal sided cattle lorry.
We've had a few that are funny on the ground - my 14.2 was a great example as people who didn't know him were petrified of him, but it was all show and if you just said boo to him he'd back off. Mags was always a bit of a witch - would wave her back feet at you when harnessing up but a slap on the bum to remind her who was there put paid to any attempt to actually do anything with the foot.
It's all in knowing what you are dealing with I think.
 
Interesting re horses hanging their knees - I was taught to fear it like the plague, especially when combined with a lack of carefullness but everyone here thinks I'm being silly. :)

I saw a horse at an auction once that messed up the grid, went right back around and messed up in exactly the same way again . . .and again. The next day a show jumper bought her - not having seen her jump - and despite the fact they paid lots of money we never saw her in the ring. Interestingly, same sire as the GSCH, who jumps like a wheelbarrow as a friend of mine put it, and a horse I know now going the equivalent of Novice who does a lovely test but rarely leaves the poles up and has fallen twice! The rider is a good pro, ridden at 4*, but tends to ride pretty average horses so maybe it doesn't seem that scary to her. The sire is known for producing good dressage horses and bad jumpers . . ..

I rode a Burrgraff filly who really taught me a lesson doing grids. First time she made one mistake, second time another, then third foot perfect and never made those two mistakes again. She jumped in great form but was not one of those freaky ones that jump the standards to get out of trouble and, if she had a rail, she didn't panic, she just fixed the mistake so long as I let her. I want a barn full of those!
 
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On the other side of the coin though, re the original discussion, I knew a stallion who used to chuck himself backwards into walls. I could kind of ride him but it wasn't fun and is small lady owner didn't even want to get on him. After me she got a big cowboy/dressage rider and when the horse did it to him he turned his dressage whip over and PASTED the horse! Both sides, a couple of really shattering whacks and then belted him forward and pounded him for so much as a backward thought. The horse never did it again, went off to the shows etc.

Now I would not recommend that nor would I likely do it myself, at least not like that. It could have ended very badly. But it worked. What can you say? :)

To add though . . .the horse did one season then his hocks went completely halfway though the next. . . .
 
kerilli said:
imho there's NEVER NEVER any excuse at all for a horse biting or kicking someone who isn't doing something to it. never. self-defence mechanism is one thing, blatant aggression is another. ouch, poor you.
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When I was at college there was a stallion there (why he was kept entire I'll never know, he was vile - nasty, lazy, no good at anything - he belonged to a pair of little old ladies) who used to hide just inside the stable door so you couldn't see him as you walked along the block, he'd then dive out and bite you as you walked past. He did it to me, I never even saw him, just felt a dreadful pain in my arm! He must have done it to the chief instructor too 'cause I once saw him flat against the wall outside his stable with a headcollar in hand swiping at the horse every time he poked his nose out!

There were six stallions on that yard at one time and that one was the only nasty (and useless) one.
 
Laafet said:
In the end, he had broken my toes numerous times, given me whip lash and destroyed my confidence to the point where I almost gave up horses all together. He was massively talented but had not go the right mentality for competing which was the most frustrating aspect of it all. The rearing and napping were the worst I have ever encountered and he was prone to explosions of broncing for no apparent reason, he had had every vet check, saddle etc done and was not in pain.
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i had a similar situation with the bay in my signature. over 2 years of trying to showjump him, only about 1 out of 10 days was a good day. he's nap/rear/refuse/throw me off/kick me when i was down. luckily didn't seriously injure me, but i fell off a lot, got plenty of bruises/cuts/sprained fingers etc, but the worst thing is he destroyed my confidence to the point i nearly gave up aswell!! (luckily i didn't and am currently looking for a new horse with my mum). i used to jump 1m30 no problem, now 80cm scares me...

he had so much talent, but like yours, just didn't have the mentality for showjumping. his previous owner had overjumped him/scared him i have been told by people who knew her, and he had several confidence crisises and wouldn't even canter over a pole at a few stages!!

he is now a dressage horse for my mum and loves it - much happier/more relaxed horse.



personally, i have learnt from this experience, and if i ever had the same siuation again, i wouldn't waste years on it like i did with Bugsy - i'd sell to someone more experienced with more confidence... and get another one to enjoy - as after all, being an amateur who does it for fun, i need to enjoy it all!!!
 
It depends why it's 'dangerous' imo!

If it feels like it's genuinely scared (as my gut instinct told me was the case with one horse) then I'd persevere and take things very slowly, never pushing too much too soon. Unfortunately owner had other ideas about how she should be ridden and what she should be doing, so after four falls, a broken nose and a bad argument I gave up. If she'd been mine I would have continued as I genuinely don't think she meant it (in no pressure situations she was fine!) but I wasn't risking my neck for someone else's ideas :(

If it feels like a pain response then I'd try to get to the bottom of that too.

If it just does it for the hell of it (habit, whatever) then I honestly wouldn't know. I don't know if I'd have it in me to shoot it (if it was otherwise happy/healthy) but I certainly don't think I'd be trying to ride it and would have as little as possible to do with it...

Some people might have said Bronts was dangerous (and he probably was - especially on the ground) - but he had his certain triggers so as long as you avoided certain things he was fine. Also, he never lost his head about stuff - so to me he was 'safe' but to someone who didn't know him and his ways he would have been dangerous.
 
marmalade76 said:
When I was at college there was a stallion there (why he was kept entire I'll never know, he was vile - nasty, lazy, no good at anything - he belonged to a pair of little old ladies) who used to hide just inside the stable door so you couldn't see him as you walked along the block, he'd then dive out and bite you as you walked past. He did it to me, I never even saw him, just felt a dreadful pain in my arm! He must have done it to the chief instructor too 'cause I once saw him flat against the wall outside his stable with a headcollar in hand swiping at the horse every time he poked his nose out!

There were six stallions on that yard at one time and that one was the only nasty (and useless) one.
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Jeeez. Bullet. no question. That is downright nasty, and what on earth is the point of a nasty useless horse?
And as for it being at a college... words fail me.
I remember years ago a vet student friend of mine asking if he could come and handle my horses a bit, after he'd seen how nice they all were, because all the ones they practised on at college were evil (too used to clueless students maybe, or being stuck with needles??) and all the students were frightened of them... :( :( :(
 
But then we had a horse at one point that used to lunge at people over the door and once picked me up and shook me like a rat. He turned out to have a rare necrotising kidney disease and must have been in extraordinary pain. But he jumped 1.30+ classes with a kid on him and was only diagnosed at 12 after he took a sudden turn for the worse and was put down afterl all the obvious treatments failed.

And the horse that took a chunk out of my arm had a brain tumour.

Although the one that grabbed me by the neck was just an evil ******* from a line of evil bastards. :)

You really cannot generalise a cause from behaviour and not all individuals react to the same stimuli with the same behaviours. I will say though one of my "red lights" is HOW a horse reacts to stress. Lots of horses are great when there is no pressure - aren't we all? - but how do you make sure of that? It is usually possible to help a horse learn to deal with pressure more effectively but if it's only an overlay it will find you out when you can least afford it.

It also depends what the horse considers pressure. Jumping big fences for a horse bred for that job may actually release pressure and NOT having that outlet might cause the problems.

I do think a lot of the time - no offence - people congratulate themselves for putting up with dangerous behaviour (by which I mean behaviour that can get someone hurt, whether the horse means it or not) when it's really their fault the horse is behaving that way in the first place. We had the whole thread on here about the girl "taming her dangerous horse" when it really was a case of a very young, athletic, bred to jump in the air, confused horse doing what athletic, bred to jump in the air horses do when they are confused, scared and not channelled properly. Posters were quick to "explain" his behaviour by what horrible things must have happened, presumably before he was "rescued" from a sport horse auction. ;) Not because he was in a strange country with a kid who was getting bad advice. Now he is a recovered dangerous horse, saved by love. When more than likely they both grew up a bit, he learned what was wanted and she learned what he needed. Admirable but not magical.
 
I think 'dangerous' is an interesting point in itself - what might be dangerous for one person may not be for another as in experience and manner of the person, what the horse is used for etc etc.

I've come across three that I would consider dangerous in different forms.

One was a black gelding about 15hh covered in scars - he came from a dealer for use in a riding school (!) and we were told he was a 'bit funny' at feed time. My friend who ran the RS was going round topping up waters after evening feed and he launched at her across the stable and latched onto her boob! The only reason she got away was because we had a long hose with a tap on the end and she whacked him with that and he let go giving her time to get out of the door. He was lethal with his teeth, front and back legs. He wore a headcollar at all times, was muzzled when outside his stable (and not being ridden), had a grill as his top door on the stable to stop him lunging at people, only a couple of people dealt with him and you NEVER went into his stable. We used to call him to the door with a treat, clip on his leadrope and put his muzzle on. Unsurprisingly we didn't keep him for long as the risk in a riding school (with kids etc) was just too great. He was a saint to ride, it was just in his box when you really had to watch him - he was generally better outside it. I suspect he probably had been battered in his box and his attitude was almost 'I'll get you before you get me' kind of thing (although I'm anthromorphosising here). Not sure what happened to him - always felt a bit sad about him as I can't imagine he had a happy life.

The other one was when I worked in a showing/dealing yard - a blue/cream cob mare. Pretty as a picture to look at and easy to handle but what a witch when you were on board!! Would be fine one minute and just flip the next! V nappy when she wanted to be, jumped over the back of a sports car with me over a disagreement about direction and could stand absolutely bolt upright - she never went over, she was too clever for that but she could (and would!) go on for hours. After several near death experiences with me and the other two grooms even the dealer finally admitted she wasn't safe and could never be sold. Not sure what happened to her either - dealer wasn't the type to spend money investigating and she disappeared out of the yard - I suspect to the knackers which in fairness was probably the best place for her. I found her more frightening than the horse described above as she just seemed so calculating and knew exactly what she was doing.

The last one was a chestnut ISH also bought by above dealer. It backflipped twice with one of the other grooms (luckily they weren't hurt) and it was decided we should lunge him. A bit 'funny' on the ground but generally ok - until it came to any kind of work. On the lunge he went straight through the school fence twice and would backflip on the lunge. He backflipped in the paddock one day when we were lungeing him and severed his spinal cord. I'll never forget that - it sounded like a water melon hitting concrete and was horrible to see the horse so distressed before the vet came to PTS. An autopsy showed he had a brain tumour.

Have also met a couple that were deemed 'dangerous' but were just thoroughly spoilt and had no boundaries or discipline!
 
TarrSteps said:
I do think a lot of the time - no offence - people congratulate themselves for putting up with dangerous behaviour (by which I mean behaviour that can get someone hurt, whether the horse means it or not) when it's really their fault the horse is behaving that way in the first place. We had the whole thread on here about the girl "taming her dangerous horse" when it really was a case of a very young, athletic, bred to jump in the air, confused horse doing what athletic, bred to jump in the air horses do when they are confused, scared and not channelled properly. Posters were quick to "explain" his behaviour by what horrible things must have happened, presumably before he was "rescued" from a sport horse auction. ;) Not because he was in a strange country with a kid who was getting bad advice. Now he is a recovered dangerous horse, saved by love. When more than likely they both grew up a bit, he learned what was wanted and she learned what he needed. Admirable but not magical.
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Yes, that one did drive me a bit crackers, must admit! ;) ;)

But let's not let this interesting thread wander off into the dodgy territory of 'riders who think that because their horse is behaving like a **** it makes them exceptionally good, brave, whatever' - no, if they were really that good, it'd be doing its job, nicely! ;) ;)
 
Surely though, the thread is about how long you persevere with something that is dangerous to you, and which isn't improving with the best help you can afford? I wouldn't persevere very long I have to admit. I have others who need me in one piece, and a husband who'd have serious issues with me riding something that put me in danger.

I'd send it away for schooling if I really liked it and it checked out physically, then probably sell it if it was beyond my ability to ride. If there was something physically wrong: treat, turn away and see from there.

I find the 'jobs' argument interesting. I have a highly bred dressage youngster who finds the whole dressage idea (of being in an outline and relaxed at all times, not able to raise head and look around in strange places) far too stressful. On the other hand, she loves to jump and couldn't care less about fillers or spooky venues if she's allowed to be a little looky and put her head up when she feels she needs to. I also have a TB who jumps very nicely at home, obviously enjoying herself, but can't cope with fillers (despite endless de-sensitizing) when out and about. She likes competing at dressage though - finds it very relaxing and does very well!
 
mystiandsunny said:
Surely though, the thread is about how long you persevere with something that is dangerous to you, and which isn't improving with the best help you can afford? I wouldn't persevere very long I have to admit. I have others who need me in one piece, and a husband who'd have serious issues with me riding something that put me in danger.

I'd send it away for schooling if I really liked it and it checked out physically, then probably sell it if it was beyond my ability to ride. If there was something physically wrong: treat, turn away and see from there.

I find the 'jobs' argument interesting. I have a highly bred dressage youngster who finds the whole dressage idea (of being in an outline and relaxed at all times, not able to raise head and look around in strange places) far too stressful. On the other hand, she loves to jump and couldn't care less about fillers or spooky venues if she's allowed to be a little looky and put her head up when she feels she needs to. I also have a TB who jumps very nicely at home, obviously enjoying herself, but can't cope with fillers (despite endless de-sensitizing) when out and about. She likes competing at dressage though - finds it very relaxing and does very well!
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Yes the right job can be a complete new start for a dangerous horse I bought one to drive ( horse driving trails ) he had failed to settle in a team and I was looking long story but I bought him .
He never did anything awful but was generally unsettled would not walk in the carriage and gave me a generally flaky feeling I could not ride at this time due to a horrible accident but as I recovered and could get on again the idea formed in my head to back him ( he knew how to be sat on but was not really broken to ride)
We rebacked him ( friends thought I was nuts) and although he's still a high octane ride very forward and senestive he's a sweety I have great fun with him I train him for the dressage but have never completed him although I may at some point it's two years in April that I stared him and I had so much fun and satisfaction seeing him change and gain confidence in a job that suits him. He was ten when I backed him so he definatly on the slow track training wise but he's happy and safe and I enjoy him so it does not matter.
I do promise people following this thread that I do have some very normal straight forward horses too.
 
kerilli said:
But let's not let this interesting thread wander off into the dodgy territory of 'riders who think that because their horse is behaving like a **** it makes them exceptionally good, brave, whatever' - no, if they were really that good, it'd be doing its job, nicely! ;) ;)
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That was not my point at all. It was merely that, as a couple of other people have said, it can be a relative call and you can't always tell what the real situation is. So you might go to see a horse that has really hurt people more than once, be on its last hope (at least as dictated by advice on the internet), and not see an insurmountable issue.

Some of that also informs what to do with a dangerous horse. It's easy to say a dangerous horse should not be sold (or bought) but it's not always easy to make that call in the relatively short time available.

One of the few really dangerous, disturbed horses I knew - from a family of crazies - was sold without provenance. Another horse I knew, with a severe and limiting injury, was sold without full disclosure and hurt someone very badly. One of the horses I already mentioned, with the crazy mother, nearly hurt me a couple of times, had a spectacular meltdown in public, then went to another rider and ended her ability to ride anything else, ever. THEN she went through a decent sport auction.

Anyone persevering even a day with any of those horses, even the second without all the information, would have been in serious danger.

To the original point, I don't think there is an "ideal" time scale. But, if I had to say, I'd like to be seeing a glimmer in about three rides/sessions. (Keeping in mind I mean an actual glimmer.) I'd like to see some reliable progress inside between one to three months, depending on the problem, how often I was working with the horse and who else was working with it. I'd like to see a positive change in at the minimum a year.

If a physical issue crops up that could be addressed, I would be willing to start the clock again BUT if the horse was then reliably pain-free I'd expect progress on the quick side.

If the horse backslid significantly and couldn't be turned around again in a week or two, I'd need to see an understandable reason. Otherwise I would assume a chronic physical problem. Obviously if there were new symptoms, that would be an issue in itself.

Of course, there are deal breakers. And it would depend on what the owner could bear as well. It would also depend on what I'd be willing to do in some cases.
 
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I had a share horse, 16.2 maxi cob. Unfit when I got him allegedly due to owners pregnacy. Spent a few weeks fittening him up in walk then trot. First time I went for a canter he took off, couldn't circle at al,l no response at all. As we went around a corner at a full gallop he fell and I was lucky to fall clear but still had a bad break to my wrist.
Started riding him again but just in the arena as I had no strength. One day he just took off again, we were in a small indoor and I truely thought we were going through the wall. Untacking I was talking to the girl in the next stable. She she asked why on earth I was risking my life on someone elses horse. Couldn't give a reasonable response to decided to give him up! Interestingly the owner has had baby, 18 months ago and still doesnt ride him.
I used to get on any horse, nothing scared me. Now I am much more careful, doesn't scare me but why get hurt when you need to be.
 
No real comment on what is depicted in this link to a horse attack incident in India - except it shows a horse in attack mode

Despite the headline not sure they guy was actually bitten "to death"!

LINK
 
When I worked at Gleneagles, the head instructor had a horse who was Satan with 4 legs ( sorry if you see this!) he ragdolled staff SEVERLEY, and he was just evil up to the eyeballs. Lived in a muzzle out the stable, only some of the staff would work with him. You had to put a carrot In the muzzle and carefully position it over his face... Once the muzzle was on he was generally ok, he knew he couldnt get you.

Once he was being ridden though he was completely different! Amazing horse, she did dressage with him. And seemingly at competitions he was so placid and her young daughter could handle him, he even never looked at anyone the wrong way when he was out.

I hacked him out once, and I was terrified! But he was perfect in every way and he felt AMAZING.

I was lucky he never caught me, but the girl he rag dolleds injuries were horrendous - he literally threw her about the field. Plenty other people got bitten whilst I was there too.

I dont know if she still has him! This was 2008/2009 time.
 
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