Dangerously aggressive horse - long sorry

Bosworth

Bosworth

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devon
www.ballhillequestrian.co.uk
Can anyone suggest anything. We have a horse here at livery - it is a 5 year old 17hh warmblood. He arrived 9 months ago and it was clear he had never been out in a field. The owners had just bought him. We struggled with him coming in a going out so turned him away for 2 months with a group of horses. All geldings and he was fine except that he became over needy with another horse which caused major problems - he could not go out or come in without the other horse to the extent that he would come over stable doors, over anti weave grills and bars. If he was in the field and the other owner wanted to bring in her horse he would loose the plot and plough through fences and gates despite their being other horses in touching distance. oVer winter his friend left, so we put this horse in with my geldings - a group of five. And things were Ok. However - We tried one other horse in with them - thiat horse had been on the other side of a post and rail fence for 3 months - they knew each other. The fields are huge - about 8 acres with loads of grass. The warmblood went ballistic and tried to KILL the other horse. He chased it into the ground the horse was was peeing and pooing as he ran - literally scared shitless. The warmblood was attacking like a stallion with his teeth - and he was aiming to kill. It was not simple a heirachy fight. We had to get in to the field with lunge whips and beat the warmblood off.

We put this down to the new horse being slightly 'gimpy' he has a club foot and can be a real pratt playing - but he has never done anything to offend. We assumed the warmblood had clocked the deformity and was trying to drive him from the herd.
so gave the warmblood the benefit of the doubt.

Until yesterday when he went in to kill another horse. Again this horse had been in the field next to him for a few months and had been grooming each other over the fence for some time. They were turned out in their summer paddocks which has knee deep grass. Two of my horses were in with the warmblood and have been for months - never a problem there, in order to restrict grazing for fat horses I have those ones seperated and this meant I needed to put the neighbour in with the warmblood and my two.

The warmblood went in to kill. he managed to get the horse to the ground twice - and then jumped on it and tried to savage it with his teeth and front feet. It was horrific. The behaviour comes from no where. It is extremely dangerous. As a person it is too dangerous to get near without a lunge whip as he has no regard for people when he looses the plot. He will run straight through fences, gates and people. Luckily because he is only young and big he eventually stopped through exhaustion and I was able to get a headcollar on and get him out of the field. His behaviour then is as though butter wouldn't melt.

I think he has now decided that my geldings are his mares, and he is the stallion and attacks all comers. No one wants their horse in with him because he either tries to kill or becomes so overly attached it becomes dangerous. He can't go in individual turnout as he goes through everything.

I will stress again - he goes to kill. luckily we have got away with it twice - the two horses he attacked were exhausted and cut all over but have not suffered any long term damage. I will not risk it with another horse although he is Ok in with my geldings - but it is a real pain when I want to ride and compete. i have suggested a rig test to his owner as his behaviour is stallion like But he has never shown the slightest interest in mares.

The owners are distraught as they hate his behaviour - But he is seriously talented and they want to BE him this year. He is so calm and laid back about everything - apart from these seriously dangerous swings.

I am running out of suggestions - bar leave him in 24/7 or buy themselves a companion pony and keep it in with it so no one elses horses are compromised. But I have never seen aggression like it. I have seen bullying, I have seen heirachy fights but this is to the death.

If I could have got a vet with a gun yesterday I would have done it.
 
Shoot the Ba5tard......
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This is very interesting Bosworth. You dont know this horses breeding do you?

I had exactly the same thing happen many years ago with a young warmblood, he had never seen a field until he came over to the UK and was, to begin with, turned out on his own next to other geldings.

After 12 months he went out with my tb dressage horse as both appeared quiet and they had been next to each other for many months with no problems.

The warmblood proceeded to run my boy ragged, snaking and biting just like a stallion and driving my horse to the ground still attacking him. Thank goodness I managed to get him out but my horse was bitten very deeply along both flanks, hind legs and neck and was permanently scarred both mentally and physically.

The wb proceeded to break in with the other geldings and start again on another one which he ran through the only barbed wire fence on the place.

Im afraid after that he was out by himself when everything else was in.

In the stable this horse was the most soppy and gentle thing you could wish for but really seemed to have major problems turned out.

I suspect its either his breeding or the way he was brought up on the continent. he came from very good lines and via a well established importer.
 
JM07 - I am starting to feel that is a serious option. the owners are talking about selling - but not in a serious way. I have said that he has no more chances. but if he is sold some poor person out there is going to end up with a potential killer on there hands and it is not as though he builds up to it - it just comes from nowhere.
 
Spaniel - could you possibly PM me your horses breeding and importers. This chap is fantastically bred and had only just arrived in the UK when the owners bought him. Yours sounds exactly like this situation and your poor horse. I know we have been extremely lucky so far. but unfortunately turning him out when everything else is in is not an option as he will go through everything to get to others.
 
I'd be very cautious about selling it in case it injures/kills another horse or even worse, a human.
I can only think of a few reasons he would behave this way - he's a rig (but I think you said you were getting him tested), he has a brain tumour (I used to ride a mare which behaved in this unpredictable fashion - and she had a tumour), or he has not been properly socialised when younger.
As for solutions - put him down, never turn him out, turn him out alone in a stallion paddock (with high fencing/electrified), or try to find him a Shetland or similar as a companion...then keep him out with it only.
All of these options cost time and money - and would only be worth it if he is not going to be a danger to people, and he is seriously talented (in my opinion).
Best of luck with him
S
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my god! I read you post with my heart in my mouth.. That poor horse that got chased, peeing and pooing! I would get the evil B**tard PTS... it dont matter how much talent it has or how much money was paid for it.. If it comes over stables doors and grills etc, thro fencing its only a matter of time before someone gets killed.
 
F it has to come down to finances - this cost 6k and is worth well over 12k. he is phenomenally talented. he jumps everything - his flatwork is fantastic and XC he has been out 4 times schooling and would probably pop round a novice XC course with ease. I will speak to the legal helpline and find out my position as the yard owner. Also re insurance if he is shot due to behavioural issues.
 
I think turning him out in a stallion paddock would be the best option. And also check he's not a rig.

I don't see why if he's attacking other horses he's suddenly going to play 'Mr Nice Guy' with a companion pony or Shetland - at our yard lots of the normally nice horses bully the companion Shetlands anyway.
 
I'm usually one for giving a horse a chance but IMHO, the best and happiest thing would be to shoot it.

There is no way in this world, no excuses available at all to suggest selling it on or even to be kept in 24/7 (which is no life for a horse). It will never change.

It is lethal and its next victim could be owned by a child. Need I say more?
 
We used to have a big welsh cob that behaved like this as he had an 'established herd'. It took months to settle any new horsein and terrified me. I had a pony on loan once and after ages being in the adjacent field and have met all the other horses no probs other than a few squabbles) it was time to introduce the 'leader'. It terrified the lfie out of me, as he chased thsi poor pony round and round, tryingt o grab his neck (which he succeeded in eventually) he then got him trapped in a circled (big horse cantering round and round on outside so piony could not escape). In the past the smaller, sprightly ponies we had had learned quickly to get away from this horse by running directly up the hills in the field (boss horse was a hefty built and could not get up hills quick enough) but this poor pony was weaker and I think would have collapsed eventually. Fortunately we managed to separate them and kept them apart again but eventually he was reintroduce and settled in the herd.

It is not nice having a horse like this, ours used to attack the horse out hacking too - ie lunge for their necks, with no warning. We did sell him eventually to a family who kept him on a yard where he was used in the riding school aswell. we never heard of any problems as think he didn't have chance to establish himself in a herd.

I would firstly get this horse checked out to see if he is a rig and if not maybe try get help from an animal behaviourist of some kind - see if there is some kind of explanation for it. It is quite likely to settle down as he gets older but at the moment it seems like he wants to make sure everybody knows he is the boss and understandably noone's going to want to risk their horse with this one!
 
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I think turning him out in a stallion paddock would be the best option. And also check he's not a rig.

I don't see why if he's attacking other horses he's suddenly going to play 'Mr Nice Guy' with a companion pony or Shetland - at our yard lots of the normally nice horses bully the companion Shetlands anyway.

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I agree, but Bosworth said he was ok with her two geldings so he may be alright with a Sheltie...
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Sorry to hear that your having problems, it must be a very difficult situation to be in.

I agree,this horse can't be passed on, if he attacked some poor innocent persons horse and caused horrific damage or death then that would be so upsetting for everyone.

Is there no way he could be kept on his own if for example he was sold on, somebody hopefully with their own land, no other horses and had the choice to eventually hack out on there own where they didn't bump into other horses etc....ok wishful thinking but you never know, there might be way of getting round the problem without destroying the horse, if he proves good in all other ways...?

sorry I'm not much help really.
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Would you (not you personally, obviously) actually want to be riding this thing around at an event with loads of other horses and people around? What's it likely to do in a warm-up with other horses around? What if it suddenly turns on someone else's event horse?

Sorry, i think its too risky, and I agree with JM07 - if it were mine, i'd be thinking seriously about PTS.

Poor gimpy horse, that was scared sh*tless by the WB
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BTW - it wouldn't be covered on insurance for being destroyed for behavioural problems. Some horses are this way out - it may just be happy in its established herd, ours was. Only a problem when introduced to new horses. We never checked if he was a rig but now I would suspect he may have been as thinking about the size of his neck etc it would suggest there were more hormones kicking about than should be for a gelding!

As for the fences and the stables, is there any electric fencing? If not, maybe give it a whirl. Some of these horses who are cocky as hell are actually terrified of electric tape. Mine only has to see to do a runner, he hasn't much respect for anything else but that white tape - he won't go near it!

The horse always may not be able to be kept in a stable - soemhorses cannot bear it. One of ours actually went out through the back wall of a wooden stable as he just used to panic (no idea why he was briliant in all other respects). he was supposed to be on box rest as injured his leg - we knew he didn't like being shut in but didn't know his reaction would be that extreme!

I just feel there's deeper issues here and maybe some behaviourist could help.
 
I am sorry, but unless I had reason to keep a horse like that - i.e. it was a top competition horse, I would have it shot. Immediately. It is a danger to both horses and humans. Whats the point?
 
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F it has to come down to finances - this cost 6k and is worth well over 12k. he is phenomenally talented. he jumps everything - his flatwork is fantastic and XC he has been out 4 times schooling and would probably pop round a novice XC course with ease. I will speak to the legal helpline and find out my position as the yard owner. Also re insurance if he is shot due to behavioural issues.

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i would be inclined to think that you'd be on a sticky wicket as regards to "liability" Ins TBH J.....

as his behaviour is "known" to you, as YO, you would be liable in all eventualities
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its a horrific thing but when a horse acts like that then you have a to take a step back and ask why you are keeping it.. My god, what would happen if it got out of the field and attacked someone who was out riding with their horse? I know you say its very talented and lots of money was spent on it to buy it but at end of day isnt human life worth more?
 
I's seek advice from a really decent horse behaviouralist to get a handle of why he is behaving like this.

Sound to me like he is a rig? Either that or he has no clue how to integrate/socialise in a herd.

Lots of the things you could do (tall electrified fencing etc) could help but would be obviously expensive.

I'd get advice from a horse behaviouralist and go from there.
 
If it was my horse I would firstly get a vet to check for brain tumours, check that he isn't a rig and make sure that he is fine healthwise in every respect. If th is was clear I would get a behaviourist and see what they say. You say he is fine to handle? I would of thought that if he was a rig he would be acting like a stallion outside of the herd/field situation? Correct me if I'm wrong..
 
I think I'd want to be contacting the person/s from whom I'd bought him. They should be made aware of what they've sold
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F it has to come down to finances - this cost 6k and is worth well over 12k.

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He won't be worth that if no bugger will buy him!!!
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And what sane person would buy a horse that dangerous, if they were aware of all the facts? It doesn't matter how talented he is, he will probably always be very difficult and dangerous to keep which IMO makes him unsaleable. (unless someone has purpose built facilities and lots of experience in dealing with aggressive horses)

It's very sad, but I feel the only solution is euthanasia.
 
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F it has to come down to finances - this cost 6k and is worth well over 12k.

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This is just an unrelated niggly point but, surely he's only worth 12k if he's actually DONE something. Having the potential to jump round a Novice is one thing and if he'd done a few and been well-placed then yes, that might make a horse worth 12k, but he hasn't actually done it yet, and given his mental issues, the excitement of an event might well blow his mind even further.
 
If this horse was a dog I feel it would be shot.

It is a hard and horrible conclusion to have to come to. I would consult a vet and check there is no physiological reason. If it is behavioural then also I think shoot him.

If my horse had gone in with and been attacked by this horse I'm afraid I would be considering action against the owners.

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