Dangerously aggressive horse - long sorry

Did you mention he was aggressive with humans? Our aggressive horse never was was perfect to handle just not with other horses. Seems a shame when he's 5tlo resort to putting him down (unless he is actually dangerously aggressive with people - that's another issue). I would try find out more of his history i think many of these horses (intended for competitive lives) have just not been socialised or treated as a horse from an early age so in their effort to protect themselves they go on the defensive automatically and attack. From what has been said he is fine with some horses not others but also seems to have no respect for fencing. That to me is the major problem. Keeping him with a group he is comfortable with is simple enough - keeping it in the confines of the field is another issue!

Out of interest, with the group of horses he's happy with is he the boss then or not? You said he went for a 'weak' horse, dominant horses will do this as they will sense things about the other horse we don't. He sounds he's acting on his instincts just over doing it!
 
As he is a livery, I would unfortunately ask the people to leave, surely your other clients will not want their horses anywhere near him.

Sound very stallion like behaviour - but that doesn't help you! If he injured you or your staff, who would pay? and still look after your other liveries (your business!) if your in a hospital bed.
 
Even though this horse is incredibly talented - can you imagine the carnage it could cause if it got loose at an event. I personally would not take the chance with a horse that displayed such aggressive and unpredictable behaviour. IMHO it is just a matter of time before a serious accident happens and either a horse or, God forbid, a human is killed. I have an Icelandic horse and have ridden in Iceland many times, their horses are renowned for their good temperaments because anything remotely dodgey no matter how talented ends up in the pot! This horse has obviously not been socialised as a youngster - but at 17hh I would not be taking any chances with it.
 
Ok may be a bit of a weird idea, but have you tried him with a mare? Mares are much better at establishing control of a herd environment and as long as he isn't a proper rig and fertile, then it may possibly be a solution (although have to say I can understand no one wanting to place their own horse in danger and offer them up!!!)

We have a young warmblood from the continent at our yard, who a friend had gelded just before she brought him. After a bit, he was integrated with her very quiet gelding - seemed fine, all went very quietly, but at some point in the following 24hrs when no one was there, the new horse chased the older one through a wire fence and had obviously been trying to mount him - he was covered in hoof marks and bites and the wire fence had severed the older horse's flexor tendon on his hind leg. Thankfully he is now recovered, but it was awful.

The new horse has since then (2 years) been kept in a field on his own (luckily he stays in them!), but has geldings the other side of the fence and mares on the other side, with a foot path fenced off in between and he copes with this OK. He has been fine riding out with all different horses, is fine at competitions and has been trailered with a strange mare - all OK, so just because the OP's horse is bad in the field doesn't necessarily follow he will be in other situations where he doesn't think its "his" herd and territory.

I also think that the type of horse integrated was very important. My friend's older horse is a complete lowest of the low herd member, very "dim" in the best possible way and not very instinctive in a herd environment. I think the new horse who was obviously very hormonal and instinctive still felt that he was a bit of an odd bod on his territory and wasn't "right".

The biggest mistake my friend made was to put her horse into the new horse's territory, rather than move them somewhere neutral - we all learnt on that one!!!

Bosworth - are you geldings who he is fine with higher rank geldings, not prone to putting up with any fuss from others?? Just wondered if the horses that have been attacked are weaker, lower rank ones?

I do completely agree that if the current owners are not willing to look deeper into this problem and get a thorough vet and behaviourist check, then PTS may be the kindest option for the horse rather than passing him on - although I am sorry I do feel that would be rather tragic without some kind of investigation into the behaviour and that personally I feel the owners have a responsibility to at least make an effort to find out what is wrong before a sensible decision is made.

End of the day if this horse is displaying that level of stallion type behaviour, but is showing some kind of talent, then maybe the owners should try offering him to an experienced competitive home where they may be have the facilities and experience of dealing with stallions etc?
 
This horse would be 100% at any event, he has never given us any reason whatsoever to not trust him 100% when under saddle. He is laid back, calm, chilled to the point of laziness when out competing. He can be hacked out by anyone with any other horse. As to getting loose at an event - he has done that - and just stayed by the lorry asleep. And he will leave any companion when under saddle and never calls.

His breeding lines and his unbelievable talent make him worth 12k - and I can assure you he would sell to the first person who tried him at that price. I have not seen a jump that he won't do - he won his first BSJA as a 4 year old - and he did that class as his first ever competition.

In the group of horses he is no where near the top of the herd. My two are in charge- one is the brains the other the brawn. When the others were in they were all at a lower level - one old and arthritis, one young and arthritic - but on a par with him. The first horse he attacked was a weak one. But yesterday's has been a dominant horse in all previous situations.
 
I had one horse with a brain tumour who was inclined to random acts of violence but I'd have to say this fellow sounds like my old event horse who was simply very aggressive towards other horses, particularly in a herd situation. He was from a line of horses known for aggressive behaviour, probably not very well socialised (small breeder, went to the track at 2) and just generally a horse that thought a lot of himself. He was, however, an extremely talented horse (far more so than I could have afforded otherwise), great to ride and handle (although I don't know how he would have done in less managed circumstances), otherwise easy to keep and at least in my opinion, worth the trouble.

However, he was A LOT of trouble.

It never got close to what you're describing because we never turned him out in the "normal" fashion in a group. Over the course of his life he only ever went out alone and in very secure circumstances, at some points (I can hear you all sharpening the knives now
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) only in the arena for a very limited time. He had to have something done with him, exercise wise, EVERY day and I had to be very careful where I kept him. I had to be careful where and when he went out and he never went out without me there. Luckily he either lived with me or at places I worked so I had control of such things. (I have to say he was otherwise such a great horse everyone else put up with him, too.) I was able to manage him well and while we did have a few hairy moments he never hurt another horse. (Soon after I got him he jumped out of a paddock and into a ring where I was riding another horse . . . he once jumped out of an arena window etc etc.)

Now, he was absolutely fine in the stall and okay being alone so I guess the situation was easier.

Would I do it again? Not if I could help it. It caused more problems as he got older, although he is now out with one other horse in a big field and doing okay. I hope I would also be able to help him now, as looking back I think I could have done more to socialise him properly, even at the relatively late age of five when I got him.

He was fine showing and in the collecting ring, although I would say he rode and had to be managed more like a stallion than a gelding. Luckily I already had some experience with stallions when I got him and I think he actually helped me professionally as I learned a lot from dealing with him. That said he was leased out a couple of times for more novice riders at the end of his career and was fine with them so long as they stuck to his program.

HOWEVER, as a livery yard owner I would have serious pause for thought. Basically my horse always had to live places where they were familiar and set up for stallions (which caused its own problems as other horses tended to react to him as if he were a stallion - and no, he was not a rig) and I was always ultimately responsible. I was always brutally honest about him and totally understood if there were places he couldn't go or things he couldn't so.

It doesn't sound like you are really set up for a horse like him nor is he ultimately your problem.

A great deal will rest on what the owners are willing and able to do. Can they cope with the special needs this horse might have for life? Are they willing to take on this responsibility? Do they have the money to do so? Do they really understand what they have or do they think he's just a bit naughty? Do they understand that this is part of his temperament and however lovely he may be for people he still has that potential underneath? Will they get help and keep him only with people who understand the situation fully?

If any answer is "no" . . . well, then they have a decision to make. My horse was fantastic and to me, worth the time, effort and money he took. BUT I was in very specialised circumstances with the help and then the skills I needed to cope with him. If these people are not, I can already see the train coming down the tracks . . .
 
this was similar to what happened to my old horse years agao. At the time my friend had 2 horses, she had her youngster who was cut late (not a rig!) out with some mares, the older gelding was on loan and came back to her and had been best friends with the youngster since he had been weaned. She let them both out and the youngster did exactly what you have described, he pinned him to the floor, made him wee and poo as he ran away from him and he was petrified. Luckily she managed to get in there and get the older boy out but she put it down to the mares in the field, perhaps this boy is confused like others have said and think your geldings are his herd but it is very dangerous. If the horse is talented and they feel that they can control it out of the field then either keep it stabled or get some special fencing in. Personally I would get the vet out to it, it could be a brain tumor or any number of things, the insurance however will not pay out if there is no physical problem so beware so the owners could go through with scans xrays and mris but if they all come back clear then the insurance wont pay up. If the owners want to sell then imo you should make sure you are there to tell the prospective purchasers the problems - what if a child had been in the field at the time? Good luck x
 
It's a sad situation cos, as I presumed this horse is fine handling wise and once tacked up, it is just on 'his' ground with other horses where the problem arises. I put it down to these types of horses are handled from a young age and broughtm on to be competition horses and that's it but whoever did those initial stages forgot the part a part letting a horse be a horse and establish himself in the pecking order. Personally I see the major problem here is the lack of respect for fencing etc as it sounds like the situation with regards to other horses he is put with can be manageble to a degree.
 
HI Bosworth,

We had a mare like this at my old yard, 16.2 WB which had been imported, would do a dressage test to die for, would jump anything. she was fine with my mare in the field no problems with her at all, you could ffed them next to eachother in the field with no difficulties. She was a big 16.2 WB next to my 15.2 Sec D and my mare was by far the boss of her. When it came to being in the stable she would be fine 90% of the time then there would be moments where she would do ANYTHING to knock the wall down and get through the grill to get to Angel. She was in a big american type barn with Monarch stables which were welded to the wall, she was so determined she twice managed to kick the wall away from the wall.
You should have seen her out in the fieldall sweetness and like. Then she started to turn on horses in the field like yours does.
In the end they had the vet out and it turned out she basically had a screw loose, poor thing it wasn't her fault, she had to be PTS as it wasn't fair on her to keep her going. This might be an option, just to see if it is that?! They had a horse whisperer out to her and he worked wonders! But the screw was to loose i suppose! Where are you based as this Horse Whisperer is brilliant.
 
Being PTS is the easy answer, but not one I think for this horse as he is talented. If he was basically useless I'd consider it

We had a hunter that did this, but fortunately we put him in with our boss horse, who promptly beat him up and proceeded to pick on him until he acted like a normal herd member.

Would be fair to say that expensive competition horses are turned out very little and definitely not in a herd! So would be ideal for this horse if he can really go places.

I would be inclined to keep him in a securely fenced electrified paddock!
 
Electric fencing is not an option - when he wants to go he will go through that or over it. A stallion pen is he only answer and it ould need to be about 12 foot - but he will gallop straight at it. When he goes in to one he has no thought of self preservation. Unfortunately the Boss horse is my two geldings - and they don't do duffing up - they seem to rule by looks alone.

The one he attacked yesterday is known to be a dominant horse - he will let rip and to be fair he did stand his ground and deliver a fair few serious blows. - It made no difference as the horse is beyond that level of reasoning.

My own inclination is sell to a competition home only - or someone who owns only one other horse and keeps it at home, they can then dictate the coming and going of this horse and it cannot injure a third party's horses.
 
I don't know if you ever read my thread about a livery horse I have staying on my yard. All of the things you are saying this horses does when it goes in for the kill, is what the mare on my farm did; only exception was she did it to humans and not other horses; so I understand exactly where you are coming from. I was attacked a couple of times, as were other liveries who kept their horses in the same field as this mare. I ended up moving the mare out and into a field with just her and her mother, until I could figure out what to do. I was so close to asking the owner to leave and take the vicious sod with her, but I didn't. The little mare is now fine (I'd never trust her 100% though) and is living with 5 other horses and has not attacked anyone since we figured out what was the problem. Finding the root of the problem was difficult and to be honest we never did, however we did appear to find the main symptom of why she did what she did and this fixed her.

I know my situation is not directly the same because the horses do different things, but with regards to running a livery yard, they are identical problems. If I was you, I would suggest to the owners that they treat this horse exactly in the same fashion as he has grown up with; that is, stable him full time and give limited turnout alone. This is how the vast majority of them live over in Europe and it is their comfort zone. I've had a few of these WBs imported and all have been the same; they are often afraid of being outside, they have trouble understanding herd mentality, they often don't know rudimentary things like what grass is, they can become aggressive due to total change in their lifestyles. From what you say about this horse, I don't believe there is anything physically wrong with the animal, it sounds like a fairly "normal" imported WB. The owners have to understand that this horse may mellow in time but it is doubtful it will totally change. It must be closely monitored and carefully managed for many years to come - are they accepting of this hefty challenge and perhaps life-long commitment? If not and the wish to sell, then I would suggest not selling (unless to someone who completely understands the situation and will continue to raise the horse in this committed fashion) and that they consider putting to sleep.
 
We have mains fencing and the gallagher model below the one for elephants.... they don't go through it twice!!
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(If you accidentally touch it you get heart palpitations)
 
Sounds like one for the gun I'm afraid. No way any responsible horse owner could sell that on in the knowledge that it can turn like that. Talented or not (and remember they don't know that they're talented) this kind of behaviour sounds far too dangerous to have on any yard where there are other horses.
 
You wouldn't turn a stallion out like this - you can sell it on, but you must stipulate that it should be kept and turned out like a stallion!

Not being able to keep it in a herd wouldn't be a deal breaker for many buyers.

However this probably isn't a horse for novice or recreational owners.
 
I have to totally disagree!!! A horse that has socialisation issues such as this will not be worth 6k, or even 1k to many people. Especially if he has issues in the stable as well. How long is it before he snaps at competition too?

Why on why do people insist on buying warmbloods etc, there are plenty of nice ones granted, but plenty of UK bred horses too.

If you buy abroad you dont know what you are getting, the whole system of upbringing them is different. I'd PTS and accept my losses.

DONT put this horse near a poor shetland, my Irish X can put mine on the floor and he is not aggressive. If you are going to put it with anything, put it with something 18hh that will give it a good kick and put it in its place. however, then 2 x vet bills.

Sorry this post is not constructive but, only option IMO is to stallion box it full time, exercise it extensively each day. Dont turn it out again.

If they cant live with that then kindest thing is to PTS. It wont change, even if its riggy and has a further op, the behavior pattern has been established, its got away with it without getting hurt and will just get worse.

Horses like this are just not worth the hassle, no matter how "talented" they may be.

Still cant believe anyone has valued it at that price with its issue!!
 
My experience of the WBs I had for rehab, is that no they won't attack or do anything out of character at shows, or in stables, or anywhere really where they feel in a comfort zone. It only happens when they do not understand how to deal with situations; such as herd mentality or out in open fields.

The horse could easily be worth this amount however the owners at present, have a duty of care to this horse and if they decide to sell, they must ensure that the new owner is totally aware of how the horse needs to be managed.
 
Tia - thats it - he is happy when he has my geldings with him - he knows he is bottom the list, He is totally happy under saddle - it means he is not in charge of anything. In a competition situation he is fantastic and anyone can take him anywhere - he is frequently competed by a 17 year old girl who weighs about 7.5 stone - without any problem whatsoever.

I had mistakenly assumed that the horse he attacked yesterday would sort himself out as he is 16'3 chaser type TB who is very handy with his heels.
 
Either he is PTS, kept on his own but if he will go through stallion fencing he will kill himself anyway... or hobble him when he is out so he can't attack other horses if he is that talented...
 
I've got a lovely TB. He's cuddly, friendly and completely trust worthy in the stable, however, he HAS to go out alone. I got him as a 4yr old. He'd come off the field 2 months before and was freshly backed. I turned him out with one horse who he presently ran down. We got them separated and put mine in his own field. Over the next two years I tried him with four horses in total. Some old, some bossy, some small, one huge. He ran them all down. He is not a rig, but he does act like one in the field. I'm lucky in that I can guarantee he will respect electric and so the solution has always been to put 'dead space' between his field and the next horses.
I'll admit it is a nightmare trying to find a livery yard. But where I am now the YO is very understanding (she has two colts). He's 100% trustworthy when ridden and handled. I would never dream of putting him down. But it is vital the owners are always honest if they wish to sell or move. I am always upfront with livery yards, I cannot afford not to be. I don't know what has caused my horses behaviour but I wouldn't say it warrants him being pts.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The little mare is now fine (I'd never trust her 100% though) and is living with 5 other horses and has not attacked anyone since we figured out what was the problem. Finding the root of the problem was difficult and to be honest we never did, however we did appear to find the main symptom of why she did what she did and this fixed her.


[/ QUOTE ] Tia, I remember your posts about this mare - I'd be fascinated to know what you concluded the main symptom was and how it fixed her please? PM if you prefer. I have never dealt with this kind of awful situation and think there is definitely a lot to learn here about horse behaviour.
 
Hi Hornby
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Well, as silly as it sounds, I am totally convinced the filly's problem was down to her forelock being incredibly thick and very very long; hence she couldn't have eye contact with anyone, or see clearly. When I pulled and thinned out her forelock she became a totally different horse. She's actually very affectionate and I spend a fair amount of time with her every day.

There are 2 other boarders who keep their horses in the same field and not once has she ever threatened them since shortening her forelock.

She comes to call now and seems to want to spend time away from her mother now - I rarely see her next to her mother anymore. There are 6 horses in total in her field and they have split into 2 sub-herds. The filly is not a part of the mothers herd anymore; her choice.

We are just about to fence the adjoining field and then the filly will be moving into there with her little herdmates and without her mother. If this works out well, then in another month or so, we will move her totally away from this area and into one of our other fields on the other side of our house. That has always been the main goal here - to totally separate the two and I feel very confident now that this will happen without issue.

The owner is totally thrilled to bits! She came over yesterday and can't believe the difference in the filly and is planning to stay here for some time to come as the transformation to the horse is such good news for her.

So, I don't think it's premature to say that, in this case, it is a happy ending.
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This maybe a totally stupid question, but what would happen if he ever got loose at an event?

I would echo what other peole have said about selling him, no matter how good he is would someone pay 12K for a horse like this? im not judging, I just asking (I dont hve comp horses so wouldn't know).
 
If the owners are likely to ever put another persons horse at risk and cannot keep it on their own land (well away from roads, paths ridden on etc) then they should IMO have it shot before it kills another horse.
 
Wow Tia
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thanks for that reply - I would never have dreamt that something so "simple" would be the solution (but great observation needed from you to think of it - I'm sure it must have been hard for the filly if she couldn't read other people's / animal's signals
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) Well, I have learnt something today, thank you and I hope she continues to make progress.
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I think I'd be trying a few more things before I shot it.

Behaviouralist for starters. WB's have a strange up-bringing and I'd like to bet it has some sort of social deficiency purely and simply to do with that, with a bit of help from his breeding.

Introductions ought not to be made on his patch, but on another's territory and why, if he has broken fencing to get to others, has he been grooming the battered horses over the fence for months - not breaking in to kill them?

What about doping him for turnout? Would he 'hobble'? Does he in fact appreciate turnout? Would he pal up with a goat or a really young horse/pony (thinking cheap one from sales that might not have much of a chance otherwise).

He is not unsafe to handle, ride or at events. His home life needs sorting and he should be given a chance.
 
I think being PTS is a bit premature. I used to ride a 17.2hh hannovarian stallion that was very aggressive to other stallions. Under saddle and in the box he was a real gent but he would try to kill other stallions if he ever got the opportunity. Even if another stallion was led past his box he would attempt to break the door down to get to him. Under saddle at a comp he was fine with other stallions as he was off his own property and didn't seem to feel the need to fight. He could be managed safely but he needed the correct environment and precautions to be taken at all times. Simple things like closeing his top door if leadng another stallion past.

I don't think you have the correct environment for ths horse. He needs a re-inforced stallion box and if applicable, stallion turnout. It is a problem that can be managed and I am sure someone with the correct facilities would buy him if he is a talented horse and the price was right.
 
QR: Usually I am all for saying PTS if a horse is aggressive BUT I absolutely would not do it in this case. Keep him as he would be kept on the continent - no turn out, couple of times a day on the horsewalker and go from there (if you can sort a pen for him all the better) and I am 99% he will be just fine. Horses do NOT need to be out all the time, they learn to adjust and I think he will too.
 
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