Dangers of feeding high protein diets?

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what are the dangers of feeding a lot of protein in a horses diet i have seen horses come up in lumps due to it, but what other things can happen, and can it casue problems like sweating for no reason, im worried about this as ive had horses tie up in the past

this is not my horse but i do ride it, its only in light work but the girl who cares for it is a proper know it all and the situation is complicated and i want to be able to present her with good facts before making her change the horses diet, without facts i dare say she will tell me where togo
 
Well many people will say that high protein will not make a horse tie up...however, I put my girly on alph a oil (v. high protein) and she promptly tied up for no reason!

Took her off it and she has been fine ever since (touch wood!)...

As tying up has to managed very carefully, I will not be taking that risk again...wether it actually was down to the protein, I don't actually know but was very coincidental!

Other things it is rumoured to cause it slightly manic behaviour ie: increased spooking etc...again, any food experts would say it definitely does not, but a leading equine nutritionist I know says it can indeed cause this. Interestingly, when my girl was on the alpha a oil, she also turned into a loon!
 
horse definately has no loopy behaviour some would actually be quite nice he is a total plod some times

he wees for england sweats up very easily and can be very tight in his quarters so i am very concered about hims tieing up as he is very much like my old mare was before she had her first attack, he is also rather fat so i want to change his diet but i cant just go to the girl your feeding him wrong i need to be able to give her reasons why she is feeding him wrong, she is a teenager, i know im only 20 but she is a typical teenage brat and thinks she knows it all, its a particulraly difficult situation becasue i only got the ride on this horse cause she got herself pregnant so she thinks she is the better rider and knows more than i do about horses and how to do things
 
Well very generally the higher the protein, the higher the energy...which is higher calories and therefore no good for a fat horse if they are not getting the required exercise...

Have a look at a few competition feeds v leisure feeds and you will see this...

How big is he, what breed is he, whats his currently workload like and how fat is he? Also whats he currently being fed?

I get your point and it seems you are doing this the right way...
 
he is connie cross six year old and keeps very well, in my opinion he is too fat, he doesnt have a gutter along his back or fat pads but is quite cresty, and you cant feel his ribs as easily as personally i would like

he is worked six times a week on the flat iwth one day a hack of about an hour, he probably only does about 30-45 mins work mixture between ridden exercise and long rein and in hand pole work, he is about 15.2

i dont exacalty know what he gets as i dont make his feeds or anything just ride him but he gets a black rubber feed skip full morning nd night and mssive nets so far too much for a hrose his type size and work load, he gets mainly alfa a and then a large quanitity of bran which is another hting i dont think he should be getting fed and then some sort of mix i think its just a feed merchants mix its very sticky so highly molassed
 
Protein is made up of amino acids which the body uses to build and repair muscle. Any more than the horse needs is a waste as the system has to remove them and deaminate them. The surplus Nitrogen from the amine part of the aminoacid is excreted by the kidney in the urine. Too much protein puts an unnecessary strain on the kidneys and liver. Remember however that it is the overall protein content of the entire diet (and the quality of protein)that is important,not just a particular ingredient.
On the subject of protein quality ,there are somthing like 24 different amino acids,some the body can manufacture from others ,some it cant. In a given protein in the body ,the aminoacid chains are in a specific sequence. If one particular aminoacid is in short supply the chain cannot be built. You can have a situation where the horse is recieving lots of protein (and eliminating a lot from the body and yet is deficient . This is most often seen in hair and hoof quality. Here ,these proteins contain high levels of methionine and cytosine (hope I remembered this correctl)which are often deficient in feedstuffs.
Feed manufacturers spend a lot of time and (your)money trying to get this right. Then all too often the horse owner completely disregards this and starts adding other stuff,unballancing the carefully designed diet.
 
The main symptom of too much protein is excessive and/or strong ammonia scented urination.

Aparently, "a horse that consumes too much protein will be at an even greater risk of contracting diseases and be predisposed to other symptoms such as hypothyroidism, tying up, kidney problems, and arthritis to name a few."

For info on excess protein, look here. Very informative: http://www.womenandhorses.com/protein20050517.html
 
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royal said:
Well many people will say that high protein will not make a horse tie up...however, I put my girly on alph a oil (v. high protein) and she promptly tied up for no reason!

Took her off it and she has been fine ever since (touch wood!)...

As tying up has to managed very carefully, I will not be taking that risk again...wether it actually was down to the protein, I don't actually know but was very coincidental!

Other things it is rumoured to cause it slightly manic behaviour ie: increased spooking etc...again, any food experts would say it definitely does not, but a leading equine nutritionist I know says it can indeed cause this. Interestingly, when my girl was on the alpha a oil, she also turned into a loon!
Click to expand...

One of ours started tying up after we were advised to put her on build up mix (high protein)

Nightmare which now is hopefully behind her. We have since had her on speedbeet and Alpha A Oil to keep her condition and it works great - we are just very careful how she is warmed up and cooled down.

We were advised to do this as apparently the Alpha A oil is low in protein.

http://www.dengie.com/pages/products/alfa-a-and-hi-fi-ranges/alfa-a-oil.php


ALFA-A OIL is the conditioning fibre feed for horses and ponies. The addition of oil makes this product excellent for promoting weight gain or fuelling hard work. As Alfa-A Oil is free from cereal grains it is ideal for over-excitable individuals or those prone to muscle problems
Click to expand...
 
Spyda said:
The main symptom of too much protein is excessive and/or strong ammonia scented urination.

Aparently, "a horse that consumes too much protein will be at an even greater risk of contracting diseases and be predisposed to other symptoms such as hypothyroidism, tying up, kidney problems, and arthritis to name a few."

For info on excess protein, look here. Very informative: http://www.womenandhorses.com/protein20050517.html
Click to expand...

that was a very helpful article thanks kind of agrees a bit with what i was sort of thinking anyway, the other horse this girl looks after who is in virtually no work and is about 16 gets a similar diet to the one i ride but if you go in his stable it smells really strange almost like a swimming pool, a horse i used to look after had a similar smelling stable and my old boss said the horse had i think a kindney although could of been liver problem and thats why it smelt odd
 
Smile_and_Wave said:
that was a very helpful article thanks kind of agrees a bit with what i was sort of thinking anyway, the other horse this girl looks after who is in virtually no work and is about 16 gets a similar diet to the one i ride but if you go in his stable it smells really strange almost like a swimming pool, a horse i used to look after had a similar smelling stable and my old boss said the horse had i think a kindney although could of been liver problem and thats why it smelt odd
Click to expand...

Are you sure it is not the smell of Ketones ?
 
Ashf said:
Are you sure it is not the smell of Ketones ?
Click to expand...

Worth mentioning here that horses have poorly developed ketogenic pathways, so ketosis is rare in this species. The horse removes excess protein by converting it into ammonia (as well as urea and nitrates) and excreting it via its urine. The smell is strong. Makes your eyes water. It's hard to mistake the smell of ammonia.
 
Spyda said:
Worth mentioning here that horses have poorly developed ketogenic pathways, so ketosis is rare in this species. The horse removes excess protein by converting it into ammonia (as well as urea and nitrates) and excreting it via its urine. The smell is strong. Makes your eyes water. It's hard to mistake the smell of ammonia.
Click to expand...

Was just wondering if there was a risk of the horse being diabetic ?
 
Ashf said:
One of ours started tying up after we were advised to put her on build up mix (high protein)

Nightmare which now is hopefully behind her. We have since had her on speedbeet and Alpha A Oil to keep her condition and it works great - we are just very careful how she is warmed up and cooled down.

We were advised to do this as apparently the Alpha A oil is low in protein.

http://www.dengie.com/pages/products/alfa-a-and-hi-fi-ranges/alfa-a-oil.php
Click to expand...

Alpha a oil is 14% protein, which is very very high...your average mix for a leisure horse would be around 8 - 10%...

I would be very careful feeding this to a horse that has already tied up...as you know, once they have it once, they are prone to it and can be set off by a huge variety of things.....
 
I was advised by a nutritionist to feed my old comp horse who tied up ERS pellets. These however are very very high in protein from oil but low in starch. He didn't tie up on them (like he did on build up!) but he went totally loopy! Swapped him to lesiure cubes and pink powder and he went back to normal and didn't tie up.
I'm SO confused by feeding! Cereals and starch is bad and now high protein and Alfa is bad. What on earth are we meant to feed! V v confused!
 
It gets confusing when no-one says HOW MUCH of the feedstuff they are using. A handful of AlfaAOil at 14% total protein is not going to significantly raise the total protein content of the DIET. But fed as a partial hay replacer it would increase the % in the DIET. Some essential amino-acids are required in very small amounts anyway. So a small amount of quality protein is necessary.
When talking about feeds on this forum, few people say what SIZE scoop they are using or whether they are feeding high quality hay/ haylage or nutritionally poorer hay. So yes it all gets very confusing.
 
firewell said:
I was advised by a nutritionist to feed my old comp horse who tied up ERS pellets. These however are very very high in protein from oil but low in starch.
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If you mean Dodson & Horrell ERS Pellets, then they are not very very high in protein at all! They are 12.5% protein which is about the same as most competition/conditioning mixes/cubes. They are pretty high in oil though (10%) and high in calories (13 MJDE/kg) and relatively low in starch (7%).
 
firewell said:
I'm SO confused by feeding! Cereals and starch is bad and now high protein and Alfa is bad. What on earth are we meant to feed! V v confused!
Click to expand...

High protein feeds are only a problem if fed to such a level that it significantly increases the overall protein level of the diet. You have to bear in mind that average hay is usually about 9% protein and usually makes up the main portion of the diet. Also that very high protein feeds such as linseed and some balancers are only fed in small quantities, so don't boost the overall protein level excessively. Again, alfalfa is only usually a problem when fed to excess - a heaped Stubbs scoop of alfalfa chaff only weighs about 500g, and again won't significantly increase the protein level of the entire diet.

Obviously all horses are individuals, so if your particular horse shows a reaction to a specific ingredient it is wise to omit that from its diet!
 
A lot of these articles are from America where it is common to feed Alfalfa hay which would obviously mean a lot of protein in the diet of many horses. I had my haylage analysed a couple of years ago and it was only 4.5% protein. I think bagged alfalfa products are a great feed and a kilo or two a day would not do any harm. I should think many horses in this country are short of good quality protein - especially laminitics kept on poor pasture.
 
Ah OK. What ever was in those ERS pellets was rocket fuel to my old horse! You could feed him oats and he would be fine but ERS pellets OMG! He was 20 and a lazy horse but he turned into a monster, spooking, running off, bucking lol. We had him since he was 7 and he had never been like that before. Goodness knows what set him off in that feed.

I suppose it depends on the horse but it just seems to me that there is so much conflicting advice. Also calories are energy so obviously a high calorie feed will give energy to the horse even if it's slow release energy so it's bound to make some horses fresher simply because they feel well. I know when I have peanut butter on brown toast I feel so energised for ages, if I eat a sweet tea and biscuit I feel energised for a bit but then feel awful with palptations and the shakes and I have no energy. I guess what im trying to say is high fat and protein horse diets sound the same as me eating peanut butter. If I eat peanut butter and exercise I burn it off and feel fab, If I eat peanut butter and sit on the sofa I will get fat as I have energy I'm not using.
Therefore in my mind feeding my horse fat and protein will have similar effects in terms of energy... So if your not working your horse much a high protein diet may make it feel fresh.
I guess it's everything in moderation again. Horses need tons of fibre that goes without saying but everything else in moderation?
 
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