Dare I say it... Parelli?

Blurr said:
Delve a little deeper? Yep, done that. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I don't understand it. In fact, it might actually mean I understand what is going on a lot better than many of those doing it because I haven't listened to the psychobabble that's used to cover up the violence that is advocated in this system.

In what civilised society would it be deemed acceptable to beat a horse? One would hope 'none'. But the parelli system first teaches its students that hitting their horse (getting down to bone level) is not only acceptable but advisable because the quicker you get down to bone the quicker it will respond to air level. My parelli instructor friend took her horse to a clinic, this was an early clinic before she decided that she wanted to be an instructor. A group of women and their horses were learning the games. One woman could not get her horse to respond and produce the required movement. She had not yet got to actually hitting her horse with the stick, not even lightly. The others, including my friend, who had all completed the exercise were becoming bored and frustrated waiting for this woman to get her horse to obey and to quote my friend "we were all stood there thinking "just whack it"".

Wives who have been beaten cringe when their husband raises his fist. Because they know what comes next.

Instead of hitting our horses, we could emply our brains and explain things in a way that they do understand. For instance we all know that to get our horse to move over we can give a signal, perhaps a light touch on the flank, and if this does not work we can turn their head towards us, thus letting biomechanics work in our favour. The horse then learns what that touch means. We don't need to hit them with a stick. If we want to ask them to turn without touching them we can add a cue before the touch, they then recognise that as a new cue.

Inflicting pain in order to train tricks should never be acceptable. The equestrian world is lightyears behind other animal trainers in this respect.

FWIW, those people who are accepted onto the parelli instructor program are those that have no qualms about inflicting violence and pain on horses in order to produce the results. Those that won't do this cannot go through the program.

Is it ever okay to inflict pain? I think so. If you need to defend yourself. Or if you've find someone who enjoys a good thrashing .... In all other instances, why not use our brains? Is it because it's much easier to learn a system by rote? In more recent years the parellis have said that the early levels of their program do not train horses, they train the owners. I would agree with that. They give us an excuse to beat our horses if we're not getting the response we want and best of all, we get to call it something else and convince ourselves that that's not what we're doing.

Why can we beat horses? They are prey animals which means that they not only don't make a noise when they're in pain but they, on the whole, tend not to use their 'fight' option as a response. They are adaptable and amenable, perfect for us to manipulate in fact. And as predators we're all too ready to exploit those characteristics that make the horse the creature we love and adore.

Next time you pick up your stick (whatever you wish to call it) having decided that pain is the answer, ask yourself this "can I explain this a different way?"
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This ^^^ This is just wonderfully put.

It applies to all forms of equestrianism of course, but the thing about the Parelli system that makes it so disturbing to me is that it is not only ok to hit your horse...it is actively encouraged.

I have a pretty good guess why hitting your horse became an acceptable and justified thing to the Parellis. That guess is that they are actually completely lacking in the kind of patience, balanced mind and compassion that is needed to "train" a horse. So, where the Buck Brannermans of the world can get great results, more through their own inner calmness...the Parellis have only the techniques. Technique is only half of the story when working with any animal. I used to work as a Canine Behaviour Therapist...I still won't give out openly many of the techniques I used when working with dogs because done by the wrong person would be a recipe for disaster. Dogs fight back fairly easily so not so many charlatans about in that area. Horses however are at the mercy of many a so called expert using all the techniques without any of the feel.

The Parellis, as can be seen in so many videos have a limit to their patience. That limitation means that when a horse has not responded within the accepted time frame, frustration sets in. You can see in it so many videos. Frustration means emotion, emotion mean irrational behaviours can set in and the irrational behaviour of choice to the Parellis is to back up what they are asking with violence. It is totally unacceptable.

We've all been there...frustrated to the point where we have given a smack or gone, "OH FFS COME ON", but to implement the use of violence as an accepted form of training is nothing short of contemptible.
 
Blurr said:
Delve a little deeper? Yep, done that. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I don't understand it. In fact, it might actually mean I understand what is going on a lot better than many of those doing it because I haven't listened to the psychobabble that's used to cover up the violence that is advocated in this system.

In what civilised society would it be deemed acceptable to beat a horse? One would hope 'none'. But the parelli system first teaches its students that hitting their horse (getting down to bone level) is not only acceptable but advisable because the quicker you get down to bone the quicker it will respond to air level. My parelli instructor friend took her horse to a clinic, this was an early clinic before she decided that she wanted to be an instructor. A group of women and their horses were learning the games. One woman could not get her horse to respond and produce the required movement. She had not yet got to actually hitting her horse with the stick, not even lightly. The others, including my friend, who had all completed the exercise were becoming bored and frustrated waiting for this woman to get her horse to obey and to quote my friend "we were all stood there thinking "just whack it"".

Wives who have been beaten cringe when their husband raises his fist. Because they know what comes next.

Instead of hitting our horses, we could emply our brains and explain things in a way that they do understand. For instance we all know that to get our horse to move over we can give a signal, perhaps a light touch on the flank, and if this does not work we can turn their head towards us, thus letting biomechanics work in our favour. The horse then learns what that touch means. We don't need to hit them with a stick. If we want to ask them to turn without touching them we can add a cue before the touch, they then recognise that as a new cue.

Inflicting pain in order to train tricks should never be acceptable. The equestrian world is lightyears behind other animal trainers in this respect.

FWIW, those people who are accepted onto the parelli instructor program are those that have no qualms about inflicting violence and pain on horses in order to produce the results. Those that won't do this cannot go through the program.

Is it ever okay to inflict pain? I think so. If you need to defend yourself. Or if you've find someone who enjoys a good thrashing .... In all other instances, why not use our brains? Is it because it's much easier to learn a system by rote? In more recent years the parellis have said that the early levels of their program do not train horses, they train the owners. I would agree with that. They give us an excuse to beat our horses if we're not getting the response we want and best of all, we get to call it something else and convince ourselves that that's not what we're doing.

Why can we beat horses? They are prey animals which means that they not only don't make a noise when they're in pain but they, on the whole, tend not to use their 'fight' option as a response. They are adaptable and amenable, perfect for us to manipulate in fact. And as predators we're all too ready to exploit those characteristics that make the horse the creature we love and adore.

Next time you pick up your stick (whatever you wish to call it) having decided that pain is the answer, ask yourself this "can I explain this a different way?"
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^^^^^ This.
Very very well put. Sums Parelli up perfectly. Which is why it didn't work with Herbie as his "fight" response is much stronger than in a normal horse.
I aften get told by Parelli people every horse WILL respond to parelli. Reading between the lines, If you beat it hard enough it'll soon give in :(
A carrot stick is just an orange schooling whip. Pure and simple. Hit a horse with a schooling whip and it hurts. Just because it's orange and you call it a carrot stick doesn't mean it wont hurt.
 
I can't comment on Blurr's experience, but I can honestly say that I've never been encouraged to hit Pete ever using the Parelli/Natural Horsemanship methods - I think the only time I've used the stick on him, is to rub him to help desensitise him to it initially.
 
I've never done any Parelli however I've got some lovely friends who do Parelli and they are not violent or stupid they just needed a structured way to deal with their own and their horses problems. They ranged from Novice to experienced when they started Parelli. They have also found many friends who are supportive and not bitchy through their association with Parelli. They are all fundamentally really interested in horses and how they think and behave and all are constantly trying to expand their knowledge whether it be through Parelli or other routes.

What is the alternative? The BHS does not offer such a scheme does it? Is there something out there e.g. for people experiencing problems loading or mounting? Or a scheme where novice horse owners can get together and be supportive of each other? I've only seen BHS or "traditional" people offer forceful and even violent methods of loading. Whips, brooms, chifneys being the equipment of choice. How does BHS market its training of horse owners if it has any? Not very well at all imo.
 
NativePonyLover said:
I can't comment on Blurr's experience, but I can honestly say that I've never been encouraged to hit Pete ever using the Parelli/Natural Horsemanship methods - I think the only time I've used the stick on him, is to rub him to help desensitise him to it initially.
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Lucky for you Pete responded from the lighter levels of pressure, which sounds about right since you had to desensitise him to the stick. A lot depends on how far you progress through the levels and also, parelli instructors do want repeat customers and are as canny as anyone else in tailoring their instruction according to the client.

Sadly, not having been encouraged to hit your own horse does not mean that this is not part of the program, if it wasn't there wouldn't be the video evidence available of the parellis themselves causing unnecessary suffering (IMO) to horses. Do that to a dog or a cat and you'd quite rightly be arrested.

The level of violence allowed in equestrian sport, presumably because of the sheer size of the horse, does not in anyway take into account the inherent nature of the horse but more the fear of the general populace when faced with 500kg of (predictable) unpredictability. This fear of those who have nothing to do with horses (and I find a lot of people who have nothing to do with horses view them as dangerous creatures) is what allows the unethical trainer to employ his methods without fear of retribution from the general public because they, knowing nothing, assume that the trainer knows best.
 
Lots of alternatives - my horse wouldnt load and he was used as a demo horse with Monry and Kelly at YHL. They got him loaded and hes been mostly fine since. but they offered a lot of support / aftercare and they frequently run clinics etc. They gave me the tools i needed to follow up on the issue at home.
 
I couldn't even watch all the video of Linda with the one eyed horse! What exactly was she trying to acheive?? A headshy horse perhaps??

Blurr on the otherhand hit the nail on the head - brilliant post! Monty Roberts has the same outlook in as much as that "violence is never the answer"

I heve used a Monty Roberts associate and found his methods to be really effective with my horse whom I had problems with turning out, the instructor got me to "think outside the box" as to why he was displaying such behaviour, so thinking about where he was being turned out and the type of fencing used, it struck me that in his mind he was being taken down to the start of race and being released onto the track. After a lot of groundwork we overcame this issue and never had a problem again - my associate instructor didn't cost me an arm and a leg!

There are so many views on how to make life more interesting for our horses and which method one should use, but at the end of the day it is down to what you want to acheive and how you are comfortable in reaching that goal and as others have already said, what works for one horse may not work for another!
 
sussexbythesea said:
What is the alternative? The BHS does not offer such a scheme does it? Is there something out there e.g. for people experiencing problems loading or mounting? Or a scheme where novice horse owners can get together and be supportive of each other? I've only seen BHS or "traditional" people offer forceful and even violent methods of loading. Whips, brooms, chifneys being the equipment of choice. How does BHS market its training of horse owners if it has any? Not very well at all imo.
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Which is why the likes of Parelli have become so popular. There's a lot of traditional trainers/instructors whose methods and attitudes have driven people to seek a kinder way and think they'll find it in PNH. This is not an attack on traditional horsemanship, but on those so called professionals who set a such poor example, either through arrogance or ignorance.

The BHS and it's trainers DO offer far more comprehensive training for horse and rider, colleges, qualifications, books and advice for various issues than the Parelli clowns ever will. But the simple fact is, people will always be people and some people wont ever be horse people, no matter what training or qualifications they (think they) have.
 
digitalangel said:
Lots of alternatives - my horse wouldnt load and he was used as a demo horse with Monry and Kelly at YHL. They got him loaded and hes been mostly fine since. but they offered a lot of support / aftercare and they frequently run clinics etc. They gave me the tools i needed to follow up on the issue at home.
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Plenty of people who hate Parelli also hate MR and KM - I'm asking what does the BHS offer given that it is the accepted "traditional" method of training people in the UK? My friends horse was also cured of loading issues after a MR Demo - this was after a BHSII had attempted to flog it into a box and it had reared up and gone over damaging its neck.
 
I've seen the Catwalk vid, but never the blind horse one. Both are disturbing. It's like they are trying to achieve 'trust'/attention from the horse using violence. Linda was lucky that the one-eyed horse wasn't the type to fight back, she'd have been on the floor. Of course that poor animal was going to be looking around more with one eye, why wouldn't it? When I'm leading my youngster I let her stop and process things that way she can decide that hoses/watering cans/cars/haylage etc bales are harmless and even interesting. I don't know enough about Parelli to decide if it's harmful to horses but from those videos and some posters' experiences, I wouldn't be rushing to try it.
 
sussexbythesea said:
Plenty of people who hate Parelli also hate MR and KM - I'm asking what does the BHS offer given that it is the accepted "traditional" method of training people in the UK? My friends horse was also cured of loading issues after a MR Demo - this was after a BHSII had attempted to flog it into a box and it had reared up and gone over damaging its neck.
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There ARE plenty of other options than ‘BHS’ versus ‘natural horsemanship’ though. I agree that what people call ‘BHS’ doesn’t really advocate one training method or another, and therefore often ‘traditional’ people do indeed use chiffneys and brooms and what have you (though actually I am not sure if the BHS do advise this!? I assume it’s more just tradition, which people then assume is related to the BHS).

But yes – there are still plenty of other ways of being with your horse which are structured, more straightforward, kinder etc etc, and are alternatives to Monty Roberts, Richard Maxwell, parelli, and BHS! I personally would not use most of what is taught by MR, RM, parelli or the BHS’s methods. I wouldn’t use a chiffney, a broom, a carrot stick, I’d really try to avoid a rope/pressure halter under any branding – but I still manage to find a way to train my horse!
 
I don't think BHS advocates one training method over another, particularly.

I don't know why training has to have a label on it? Surely just common sense and compassion are the way forwards. It seems if you stick to one school of training you have to take the bad with the good. If I were you, I would get out a few books about biomechanics and equine behaviour (proper scientific books rather than something trying to sell a training regime) and get some good ground work lessons with an instructor who has experience with youngsters. It's dressage you want to do, right? Perhaps take a look at some of the classical schools. The most important thing with young horses is clarity.

I haven't seen people hitting their horses with their carrot sticks, but I have seen a LOT of whacking their horse's heads with the lead rope clip when doing that wavy rope thing. Which I can assure you really hurts. Has anyone used the Parelli methods to actually train a successful competition horse?
 
Those 2 videos are disgusting.

Nobody has to buy into any method 100pc. Why is there this need to label and market everything in the modern world? Instead, take a bit from each. Take the useful bits from each. See clinics, demos, videos on utube, books, dvds and decide for yourself what works, what doesn't work, for you and your horse.

My youngster was led out on roads in bit, roller, bridle, sidereins (very BHS) but at same time he was worked at home in a round pen (Natural Horsemanship) and I was doing groundwork stuff with him out of the Kelly Marks/Richard Maxwell/Monty Roberts books. I had 2 sessions with a NH trainer ... he's just been away for 3 months at a Parelli centre so when he comes back, I will go to one of his clinics (without my horse) to see what he's picked-up.

I like much of the ethos behind Kelly Marks and Richard Maxwell. Pressure-release. Make the right decision the easy one for the horse. Plan and present what you want to achieve in a patient way. If you fail, reconsider if there's another workaround way before losing the plot and going "FFS".

I like much of the Monty Roberts but I disagree with some aspects - I do feed treats by hand for instance.

I like some traditional (BHS or whatever you want to call it) stuff, but not all of it. I don't use whips or spurs or double bridles but then I'm a happy hacker/treccer not a high level dresage/sj/performance rider.

Clicker-training. I tried that, and it gets them thinking, and it's positive reinforcement too. But I'm uncomfy with the lack of voice as I'm forever babbling to my neds (something which many trainers disapprove of).

So you take what works for you. And there should never be need for temper loss or violence.
 
Suechoccy said:
Clicker-training. I tried that, and it gets them thinking, and it's positive reinforcement too. But I'm uncomfy with the lack of voice as I'm forever babbling to my neds (something which many trainers disapprove of).

So you take what works for you. And there should never be need for temper loss or violence.
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Totally agree with nearly all of your post - one of the things I've always found so weird about parelli is that they insist you have to buy in 100%

The clicker training thing - you can use voice in general; I've used clicker training a lot with my horse, and I babble away to him too! As long as you're also just very consistent with when you ask for a command, always using the same word, that's all. Same as training a dog. In fact I find it encourages me to talk to him even more - I taught him walk/trpt/canter/move over on command with a clicker on the floor and find he is more responsive in the school when i incorporate these commands with my actual aids - though I haven't stopped any of the other talking to him which I would usually do. He doesn't seem to have a problem with this, and he is let's say not the sharpest tool in the box....

Not sure if the OP has stopped reading by now!!
 
Just want to say thanks to everyone for their replies on this post. Lol I've not stopped reading Morgan123, still reading with interest! It's great when you can put a message on here and get so many helpful replies so quickly. Gotta love the Horse & Hound Forum! It’s obviously a controversial subject and people feel strongly about it, one way or the other. I don’t know enough about Parelli to know whether the original concept has been twisted into something it was never intended to be, but if this is the case then it seems like it’s Pat and Linda themselves that are responsible for this. I’m reluctant to watch those videos as I HATE seeing animals being mistreated (as I’m sure everyone here does) and can tell from others’ responses that I wouldn’t like what I see. Obviously some people have used Parelli successfully, like NativePonyLover, where other methods haven’t worked. And that’s great. But I’m now reluctant to put my hard earned cash into Linda and Pat’s already full pockets when I see the kind of treatment they are advocating. I also came across an email quoted from Linda Parelli herself stating that Pat ties his horses up for a few hours EVERY DAY to get them used to when they need to travel overseas. I find that quite shocking; I understand the logic but most certainly don’t agree with it.

I am a fan of Kelly Marks as she seems to genuinely care about the horse’s wellbeing and would never advocate pain/violence against the horse. A lot of people can’t be bothered to get to the root of a problem and think of another way around it, as it’s generally much quicker to just get the whip out and give the horse a good belt until it gives up. I saw this almost daily at my last yard and still see it now, and it’s heart-breaking.

As a few people have said, perhaps the best approach is to read up on lots of different methods and take bits from each one. I’ll continue my search and hopefully pick up bits along the way. As I’ve said, the most important thing to me is that my horse is happy, comfortable, relaxed and enjoys life. If only more people saw their horse as a partner to be respected and not a servant to be abused, there would be a lot more happy horses around.
 
Wow... The lady herself! I am coming to the Monty Roberts Stablemate to Soulmate event at Myerscough College next weekend so hope I'll see you there!
 
I do try and 'bite my tongue' when these threads start. Our N H work started with Parelli in 1999.Within a couple of years the politics and 'cultishness' of the Parelli brand led us to decamp to Aus N H teachers , but we have remained outside of any brand name.
Our horses, and the many OH and myself have trained,retrained, backed etc , have benefitted enormously from N H . The groundwork and liberty skills are something we d not done before. For myself I love liberty, and the journey I took with my horse from a cant- hold -him- in- a -double to ridden liberty was one of the major highlights of a long riding career. OH has been a full time instructor for 13 yrs[ now semi retired , so I m not looking for exra work for him!]
We have made some wonderful friends along the way.
Parelli , being a business model has unfortunately got worse with time. The early good instructors left because they were so restricted in what and how they could teach. Parelli then actively looked for young and inexperienced trainee instructors to mould them. These instructors [ often young,female, evengelical], without a depth of horse knowlwdge could only pass on a limited amount .
Added to that you have riders looking to N H ofr specific reasons. Often they are over horsed, and are looking for a kinder way to get in control.And yes, some of these riders no longer ride, but thats because the horse is either dangerpus or damaged in some way. many 'ordinary' riders would get rid and biy another, but the N H ers tend to buy and keep for life.
Putting aside the episodes [Catwalk, the blind horse, some trailer loadings] where Parelli went too far [ ego and a need to get a result] , there are many good principles in the N H philosophy- but its not 'fluffy bunny ' - how could any effective horse training system be like that? So, many disciples came to Parelli with unrealistic expectations of how horses need to be trained and handled. I completely agree that many Parellied horses are automatons and dulled out. Thats the USA way, especially for Western show riding [IMHO]
So my advise would be to get some ebay Parelli DVD s and have a go - all the best!
 
You know what I think? parelli etc aside.

I think the main problem with any certain method where you all follow the same set rules is people often forget horses have their own mind and preferences.

No two horses are alike so it's impossible to do exactly the same thing with each individual horse and they will all react and learn the same. (Parelli is a good example).

Why do people feel the need to pick a person or method and follow them? Why can't we pick and choose the good and bad in various methods and go with what works for the horse.

These method cults are a major problem parelli or not..

You are obviously interested in the natural horsemanship path, but all I would say is don't follow one method religiously pick parts of parelli that are useful and ditch parts that aren't or don't work for your horse.

Explore different options trial and error is how most of us make our way through life anyway.
 
risky business, exactly right! I recently went on a course (not Parelli but another NH 'brand') v expensive I might add and was very dissapointed after having high hopes, there was very little input into discussing each individual horse and a very one size fits all philosophy, very little positive reinforcement and it did feel more like a money spinner than anything. I did get some good training ideas but on the whole I realised that I had found easier, smoother ways to interact with my youngster and I would be doing her a disservice to employ some of the more harsher methods employed. It is trial and error, sometimes we are so worried about making mistakes we can get 'stuck' but I've learnt it's okay to make mistakes, you change your methods to get the results you want and through consistency it will then become habit, you won't 'ruin' a horse through making mistakes as long as you correct yourself.
 
What a sensible reply risky business :) If you don't ever want to sell your horse by all means try Parelli but if you do want to sell at sometime, someone will have to retrain him :D
 
Without getting all wound up about the Parelli "system", my take is this. Parelli as a programme has correctly identified a range of behaviours (they call them games) that are really useful things for all horses to know. After all, who doesn't want a horse who backs up, moves sideways away from you, comes towards you when beckoned, can be handled all over, and who will walk willingly through slightly tight spaces (e.g. gates)?

What they don't make clear is that there's more than one way to teach a horse all these things (plus a whole range of other things). I used to share a field with a Parelli student (now an instructor, I believe). I trained my horse to do all these things, using the Parelli "cues", so that she could handle and move him around easily at the same time as her own. I just didn't use the escalating pressure (aka threats - "dear horse, you have a choice... do what I say or I will make life uncomfortable for you"), I didn't use ropes, sticks or strings.

Just like the posters above, I used rewards :)

And you know what the funny side effect of training with rewards is? Your horse learns that you're the best thing ever. They start following you around, sticking their noses into bridles, walk over when they see you arrive with the saddle... because they know when you're there, nice things happen.

Now, you can achieve a horse stuck to you like glue with Parelli and other NH too - but remember, it's because you told the horse "come here and don't move away unless I tell you, because if you do, I'll make it uncomfortable for you". End result looks pretty similar -horse stands where put, follows owner around. For me though, there's a critical difference, and that's in the horse's expression.

So my final point is, by all means take what good you can find in Parelli and other NH, but don't believe there's only one means to an end :)
 
It's a generally a good rule that if anyone says their way is the only way and everyone else's is cruel be very suspious of what they are peddling .
 
Ladyinred said:
It can be extremely aggressive
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The fact that the top Parelli instructor - Pat Parelli himself - treats horses so harshly and often, it seems to me, with precious little respect (while he demands respect in spades from them) is what I dislike most, I suppose. However, some Parelli practitioners are not only much more pleasant to watch, but also better horsemen I would say.
 
Goldenstar said:
It's a generally a good rule that if anyone says their way is the only way and everyone else's is cruel be very suspious of what they are peddling .
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In all walks of life that is only too true!

fburton said:
The fact that the top Parelli instructor - Pat Parelli himself - treats horses so harshly and often, it seems to me, with precious little respect (while he demands respect in spades from them) is what I dislike most, I suppose. However, some Parelli practitioners are not only much more pleasant to watch, but also better horsemen I would say.
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That's my thoughts summed up really well. I don't judge NH...I judge idiots which is something as I try not to judge at all usually. Plain as day though I find Pat and Linda to be severely lacking in the sympathy department when it comes to horses (as in sympathetic handling). It is possible to not be namby pamby and not be violent/aggressive at the same time.
 
I don't understand the difference between good NH (and that doesn't include Parelli, as it is not) and good traditional training methods.
Some of the most inspirational horsemen and women come from traditional backgrounds but produce excellent horses because they understand the horse's point of view and how they react.
 
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