Darlan Fatal fall at Doncaster :(

[Alec Swan]

....... I do not accept that the loss of a racehorse that he owns and sees only occasionally by J P McManus in any way compares with the loss of a horse which I personally spent several hours a day with, and who I taught almost everything he knew for 6 years and who ................

Just so that I understand you, are you saying that the loss of your horse was a greater loss than an animal which was owned by a wealthy man?

It's what you seem to have said. I do hope that it isn't what you mean.

Alec.

 

[Moomin1]

Just so that I understand you, are you saying that the loss of your horse was a greater loss than an animal which was owned by a wealthy man?

It's what you seem to have said. I do hope that it isn't what you mean.

Alec.

Oh come on Alec, it doesn't take Einstein to understand CPT's post.

She is saying that the amount of feeling/sense of emotional loss is hardly comparible between somebody who hardly ever sees the horse/have any involvement in their daily care, to somebody who spends hours each day looking after them.

 

[cptrayes]

Just so that I understand you, are you saying that the loss of your horse was a greater loss than an animal which was owned by a wealthy man?

It's what you seem to have said. I do hope that it isn't what you mean.

Alec.

Gosh you didn't read my post very well did you Alec?

It has absolutely nothing to do with his wealth. It is entirely to do with how much his life was actually involved and entwined with his horse. That is related to how much time he spent with him, how much he actually did with him, how much he taught him, whether he fed and groomed him and nursed him when he was sick, took a personal decision to end his life, etc etc etc.

Again can I stress this is nothing to do with me. I am barely upset now about the horse I lost, but I am a fairly unemotional person. Most owners that I know are distraught for a long time; some for years; some forever.

Will Mcmanus, Nicholson and McCoy really still be crying about that horse in a year's time?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

The groom is likely to be most affected, but still nothing to compare with an average Riding Clubber owner.

Would you like to come over here and say that?!? We put our heart and soul into our charges. We treat them like our own. They have everything in our power to give them. We take immense pride in seeing them stride out onto the track all stripped and rppling with muscle knowing that we have done the best job we possibly could for our horse. Ok we may get a little peeved if they don't win and we thought that they should've - so does your average riding clubber - but we are always happiest when our horse comes home safe and sound regardless of where they finished.

I got a call at 11pm last night telling me that one of my charges had done himself some serious damage in his stable and had been put down. I had worked with that horse for 3 years, I knew his quirks, his moods, his habbits, his likes, dislikes. He had a certain way that he needed brushed or he would quite literally take your head off with his teeth. He was also very handy with his back feet too. There were only 3 people who could do anything with that horse 95% of the time and I feel totally and utterly privileged that he trusted me and never once even so much as swotted me with his tail. He owed me nothing and I owed him everything. When I walked into his box ths morning I broke down because he didn't great me with his usual teeth nash and head toss. I am still in tears. He truly was an amaing horse to deal with and he is no longer there. No he wasn't the greatest of racehorses on paper but to me he was. And do you know what hurts the most? The fact that he injured himself in a place he was supposed to be safe and it took just over an hour to diagnose, discuss and do the final deed. You may not agree with me on this, in fact I know you won't, but in all honest truth I would much rather he went the way Darlan did. Doing something he loved and not knowing what was happening to hm.

Don't you DARE ever try to say that even the stable staff don't care for their horses as much as your general bog standard riding club owner!

 

[teapot]

I was just about to say to CPT - tell that and the attitude to someone like EKW. Sorry about your latest loss

And actually CPT if you read McCoy's first autobiography you can clear see how much he cares about the horses he rides and loses, Gloria Victus being one such example

 

[cptrayes]

I had worked with that horse for 3 years, I knew his quirks, his moods, his habbits, his likes, dislikes. He had a certain way that he needed brushed or he would quite literally take your head off with his teeth. He was also very handy with his back feet too. There were only 3 people who could do anything with that horse 95% of the time and I feel totally and utterly privileged that he trusted me and never once even so much as swotted me with his tail. He owed me nothing and I owed him everything. When I walked into his box ths morning I broke down because he didn't great me with his usual teeth nash and head toss. I am still in tears. He truly was an amaing horse to deal with and he is no longer there.

Then you fit the pattern of the kind of owner I was describing, and have no need to be so angry with me, since I am clearly not talking about the kind of relationship that you had with that horse. I had to use some kind of term to describe what I meant, but surely you can see that your relationship with that horse was a world away from JP Mcmanus's relationship with Darlan?

I'm sorry you are upset, but I fully understand why you are so upset, because you looked after that horse like a Riding Clubber looks after theirs - personally.

 

[St Nicnaclaus]

Well said EKW.

I have been reading this thread since it was first posted yesterday but haven't commented as it quickly descended into the type of HHO thread I detest i.e. 180 degrees from original post.

RIP Darlan - taken too soon like so many whether on/off the track right through to a beloved shetland belonging to a child.

 

[cptrayes]

I was just about to say to CPT - tell that and the attitude to someone like EKW. Sorry about your latest loss

And actually CPT if you read McCoy's first autobiography you can clear see how much he cares about the horses he rides and loses, Gloria Victus being one such example

I don't doubt that he cares.

But does he care as much as someone who mucks out, feeds and rides their own and only horse every day?

I don't believe he does, because if he suffered that much pain when one died he would simply not be able to put himself back into a situation where he knows that it will happen time after time after time.

 

[cptrayes]

You may not agree with me on this, in fact I know you won't, but in all honest truth I would much rather he went the way Darlan did. Doing something he loved and not knowing what was happening to hm.

Of course I agree, I would rather my hunter broke his neck falling over a hedge than broke his leg in the field.

Don't you DARE ever try to say that even the stable staff don't care for their horses as much as your general bog standard riding club owner!

If this is not true, then I cannot understand how anyone can work in the racing industry with the wastage rates that there are and go back into work again after each loss.

If you add the horses which are shot because of injury after they get back home, the average groom in a large racing stables must surely lose a horse on a fairly regular basis? If that hurts as much as it hurts the one horse owner to lose a horse they have personally cared for and ridden for ten or twenty years then I simply cannot understand how anyone could do the job and stay sane.

 

[EllenJay]

I can't agree with this, sorry Alec. I do not accept that the loss of a racehorse that he owns and sees only occasionally by J P McManus in any way compares with the loss of a horse which I personally spent several hours a day with, and who I taught almost everything he knew for 6 years and who was responsible also for a large proportion of my social life in attending riding functions with friends and acquaintances. I don't think I am special in this, I do not think his, the trainer's or the jockey's loss in any way compares to the loss suffered by a long term owner of a single "companion" horse. The groom is likely to be most affected, but still nothing to compare with an average Riding Clubber owner.

I have avoided these sort of arguments about the rights and wrongs of racing - but this comment has left me gob-smacked.

How one earth can YOU determine the levels of someones grief. Are you saying that someone who keeps their horse on DIY cares more for the animal than someone who keeps their horse on full livery - as the person on full livery is slightly more removed.

 

[fizzer]

I am barely upset now about the horse I lost, but I am a fairly unemotional person. Most owners that I know are distraught for a long time; some for years; some forever.



How can you comment/judge on anyones's level of grief when you have posted this. Unbelievable.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......I do not accept that the loss of a racehorse that he owns and sees only occasionally by J P McManus in any way compares with the loss of a horse which I personally spent several hours a day with, and who........

Oh come on Alec, it doesn't take Einstein to understand CPT's post.
.......

You're right, it doesn't. All it takes is someone with a very basic grasp of the English language to understand that a horse owned by a wealthy man doesn't in any way compare with the loss of of a horse which I personally...... etc. means, exactly what it says.

Gosh you didn't read my post very well did you Alec?

.......

I read and understood your words very well, as did others. I will tell you again, your loss was no greater than that of McManus, Henderson, McCoy or EKW, and you have no right to claim otherwise.

I shall leave this thread, you'll be pleased to hear, and as equally pleased, I shan't bother to read further replies.

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

I have avoided these sort of arguments about the rights and wrongs of racing - but this comment has left me gob-smacked.

How one earth can YOU determine the levels of someones grief. Are you saying that someone who keeps their horse on DIY cares more for the animal than someone who keeps their horse on full livery - as the person on full livery is slightly more removed.

I think that would depend on the people and the horses involved. But I doubt if either can seriously be compared with an owner who owns a string of horses which he has probably never even brushed or hoof picked in their lives, never rides, and sees mainly from a distance on a few occasions a year.

If you do, fine. But I really can't see JP McManus, Nicholson or the groom crying over this horse in a year's time, otherwise they'd be constantly in tears over the number of horses which have died or been put down for injury in their time involved with them.

 

[Moomin1]

You're right, it doesn't. All it takes is someone with a very basic grasp of the English language to understand that a horse owned by a wealthy man doesn't in any way compare with the loss of of a horse which I personally...... etc. means, exactly what it says.



I read and understood your words very well, as did others. I will tell you again, your loss was no greater than that of McManus, Henderson, McCoy or EKW, and you have no right to claim otherwise.

I shall leave this thread, you'll be pleased to hear, and as equally pleased, I shan't bother to read further replies.

Alec.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I cannot see where CPT has remotely made any connection between his wealth, and his sorrow over the loss of his horse?

I read the post as talking about level of involvement, care, daily interaction, having an impact on the amount of emotional involvement somebody would have.

 

[cptrayes]

You're right, it doesn't. All it takes is someone with a very basic grasp of the English language to understand that a horse owned by a wealthy man doesn't in any way compare with the loss of of a horse which I personally...... etc. means, exactly what it says.

Alec you are the only one who has referred to his wealth. His wealth is irrelevant, which is why I never mentioned it.

 

[dancingkris]

In relation to the earlier post regarding the numbers of horses which die on a racecourse compared to showjumping/eventing etc - of course the numbers of racehorses being killed 'in action' are going to be higher. On average there are probably upwards of 150-200 horses PER DAY competing in races - in the public eye, televised for all to see. How many horses are competing in top level showjumping or eventing in the UK per day - certainly not as many as are racing. Racing is 7 days a week, most days of the year - other equestrian disciplines aren't - if the same numbers were competing as much I'm sure the fatality levels would be on a par with horses killed whilst racing.

There may well be horses killed competing at lower levels of SJ-ing/eventing/hunting every day - but who'd ever know as the results aren't there immediately for everyone to see - the sports can't be compared as racing is so much more transparent and accessible to everyone. Yet no one jumps on the bandwagon and spouts about the wastage in the other equestrian disciplines. Sadly for the racing industry if a horse is killed its there in the open straight away and there is no hiding from it. The same as people talk about the levels of wastage in racing and horses that don't make the grade - if eventers and sport horses were bred on the same levels and quantities as racehorses surely there would be similar levels of wastage - the fact is the numbers for other industries will never compare and levels of anything will always be higher in racing due to the fact there are far more racehorses being bred and trained than in any other equestrian discipline.

For what its worth, having worked in racing I can quite assure the doubters that everyone involved will be feeling Darlan's loss deeply. The same as they would be if he was useless and just ran to give his owners a day out. The guy who bred him is a good friend of mine and is devastated at his loss - he didn't own him anymore, had nothing to do with his training or looking after him but still cared. It really winds me up when non racing people assume that us racing people don't care and we are somehow less of a horsey person than they are.

 

[Dab]

I think that would depend on the people and the horses involved. But I doubt if either can seriously be compared with an owner who owns a string of horses which he has probably never even brushed or hoof picked in their lives, never rides, and sees mainly from a distance on a few occasions a year.

If you do, fine. But I really can't see JP McManus, Nicholson or the groom crying over this horse in a year's time, otherwise they'd be constantly in tears over the number of horses which have died or been put down for injury in their time involved with them.

the biggest mistake you are making here is only seeing this from your own very narrow view point of how you personally gain pleasure and enjoyment from your horses....there are others who gain just as much enjoyment and pleasure from a horse by just watching it race or compete etc and you do a massive disservice to all of the owners around the country. but clearly for you, only having direct contact with the animal wins you the right to grieve or have feelings for it, i on the other hand disagree with you.

 

[Dobiegirl]

For people who didn't want this thread to degenerate into a discussion about racing, you're all doing a great job of perpetuating it.[/QUOTE]


You have a total lack of empathy and youve also shown yourself to be beligerent to the extreme by posting on this thread when you well know it was a tribute. Anyone else who thought different would have started another thread but not you, you do like to stir dont you.
EKW Im really sorry for your loss and can well understand how difficult going into work was this morning, hugs to you x

 

[cptrayes]

Racing is 7 days a week, most days of the year - other equestrian disciplines aren't - if the same numbers were competing as much I'm sure the fatality levels would be on a par with horses killed whilst racing.

They wouldn't DK.

The industry itself quotes 1 in 250 starters. There are an average of 200 starters for every day of BE. I have done BE myself and have numerous friends who do BE and to my knowledge, not one of us has ever been at an event and seen or heard of the death of a horse on the showjumping or cross country course. There is also plenty of televised showjumping again now, and I have only ever seen one horse die on screen and that was a heart attack unrelated to the event. There was one death at the first high level arena eventing competition and it has never been held at that level again.

The proportion of deaths in competition is definitely far higher for National Hunt Racing than for any other discipline.

I think racing "gets away" with it in the public eye because the race carries on and the camera goes with it. If that proportionate number of deaths happened in other televised equestrian disciplines being watched in close-up focussed on the one horse, those sports would in my opinion certainly die as televised events, and I believe they would stop altogether.

 

[Partridg3]

Well I can only comment regarding the syndicate I know and believe me they couldn't give a stuff what happens to a poor one. I know of 2 that have disappeared thanks to the trainer and one got dumped on me. Once injured or no good they want rid so they can buy the next one. They certainly wouldn't shed a tear...unless it was making them a mint and winning loads of races.

 

[Dab]

Well I can only comment regarding the syndicate I know and believe me they couldn't give a stuff what happens to a poor one. I know of 2 that have disappeared thanks to the trainer and one got dumped on me. Once injured or no good they want rid so they can buy the next one. They certainly wouldn't shed a tear...unless it was making them a mint and winning loads of races.

and you only have to look at the amount of equines in rescue charities and at the abottoirs across the country to understand that it doesnt just apply to racing syndicates or racing owners...it is across the board from your riding club owner to your horse hoarder!.....

but i apologise to all of Darlan's connections for entering into an arguement on a tribute thread. sorry and i will bow out....

 

[justabob]

Well I can only comment regarding the syndicate I know and believe me they couldn't give a stuff what happens to a poor one. I know of 2 that have disappeared thanks to the trainer and one got dumped on me. Once injured or no good they want rid so they can buy the next one. They certainly wouldn't shed a tear...unless it was making them a mint and winning loads of races.

You seem to be talking about a syndicate that has little regard for the horses that they have in training. I am sure there are many such syndicates of non horsey people who are only concerned about winners. I really dont think that you can tarr all owners with the same brush. I certainly also don't for one moment think that your rather depressing slant on racing has anything to do with this thread and the homage that HHOers wanted to pay to the truly talented horse Darlan.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Does it really matter who likes racing - who thinks its cruel - whether the owner sees the horse once twice or three times a week - if he is rich poor - whether people think a loss of a race horse differs from a family horse.

Does the fact he may only see the horse twice a week make him less able to be sad - mournful- grieving ??? More so than someone who sees it more often??


Jeez so many livery owners may only see their horses at weekends only.

This thread started to tribute a beautiful horse who tragically died on the last hurdle. Why do so many threads have to wander off the original topic.


RIP Darlan - you died so tragically doing something you love.

 

[fizzer]

Because there is always one person to spoil things.

 

[Luci07]

Because there is always one person to spoil things.

Agreed. Hope the connections don't read this thread. Utter nonsense that only people who take all the care of their horse would really understand and grieve. Horses do not give a toss for who mucks out and feeds, they do react to those who can spend time with them be it riding, grooming whatever.

So RIP Darlan. Sorry that the subject and tribute to your death was hijacked into a racing bashing thread.

 

[FinalFurlong]

I do not really want to get involved in this as im sure many of you just by reading my username will know my views on racing. I also hate debates especially about a sport i care about so much. I also know everyone has the right to their opinion, on both sides of the argument.

However i must say there is good and bad in every sport. Show jumping, there is rapping and sensitivity of the horses legs etc. Dressage, there is rollkur, and then there are the countless amounts of everyday horse abuse given to horses who would never even see the local unafil show ring. A horse can break his leg running around a field (and i know 2 horse owners this has happened to).

R.I.P To darlan, I really do feel for all connections, trainer,jockey,owner, groom etc. I work in a racing yard myself, we did not even get a winner last season (plenty of places though) and our horses are at the bottom end of the racing scale. We could not get a horse like darlan in our wildest dreams. However, even if a horse of ours who made the racing post for being so bad ever died i can assure you the entire yard, trainer and all would all be in floods of tears. They are not 'machines' to people who are willing to get up at 5am every single morning, which the trainer and stable staff do themselves (not just at my yard)

Owners, now you get some good and some bad, Some would be in floods of tears, some wouldnt. However you do not see all show jumping/dressage/eventing owners crying either when a horse is sold on to the next rider for a bigger price etc.

However I do think people should pay more attention to horse abuse right under their noses instead of tragedies like this.

 

[Echo Bravo]

What started as a lovely tribute to a talented horse and the 2 that died the same day, was as usual over taken by CPTRAYES and then WAGTAIL, why can we not just ignore them, for the sour small people they are.

 

[Goldenstar]

My sympathy does go out to those who cared for the horse and laid awake restless at night over him.

Mine too, my sympathy is always with the lad or lass with the empty bridle whether the horse is a star or a bit of an also ran there's always a lad or lass with a bridle.

 

[AmyMay]

What started as a lovely tribute to a talented horse and the 2 that died the same day, was as usual over taken by CPTRAYES and then WAGTAIL, why can we not just ignore them, for the sour small people they are.

Why are Wagtail and Cptrayes singled out as being 'small people' for merely expressing very well thought out, and actually very relevant, views on an industry that does kill many 100's of horses a year?

I love racing, but am becoming less and less immune to the waste and loss. If expressing that view also makes me a 'small person', add me to the list with Wagtail and Cptrayes.

Of course it's a tragedy that this beautiful creature lost his life. And of course his connections will be very, very upset. However, in order to be involved in racing you have to accept that every loss on the racecourse is an acceptable loss. Otherwise you wouldn't be involved.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Maybe because this thread was started as a tribute for a talent young horse who tragically died, and for people to send their condolences and tributes.

OP I am sure did not intend this thread to digress into this.


Maybe if the thread was called

What do you think of racing is it a waste of horses or not

or

Please tell me what you think about horses dying in racing