Dartmoor Pony Society endorsing Eating them to save species.

and this is why i love HHO, an informed debate rather than hordes of fluffies insisting that the DHP's are wonderful and all deserve a chance and we should all go hug a tree!
 
The stallions on the new forest are only out for a limited amount of time, 4 weeks maximum and only a selected few run out, 10 of them in different areas.

Each stallion/colt has to be inspected by the verderers and vets before running out. Their bloodlines are also assessed as obviously rare ones need to be kept but we don't want too mnay offspring by the same lines year after year either.

This has been in place for a number of years now. Commoners also can take their mares off should they wish not for them not to foal. We got most of ours in last year. There is no point breeding unwanted animals. There is enough of a welfare issue in this country at moment.

As a result of this scheme the pony prices and quality have improved although due to the recent harsh winters and economic climate we've come a full circle but a good forest bred pony can hold its own in the show ring.

I have no problem should people wish to eat them nor being PTS as there are far worse outcomes being alive than being dead!
 
Just to add a thought to this thread, I was once asked

'who decided that we would eat cows and ride horses rather than the other way around'

If you eat meat of any sort, as long as it is humanely killed why not eat horse???
 
I really don't know why Friends of the Dartmoor Hill Pony suggested eating these ponies for meat. The problem for the Hill ponies is indiscriminate over-breeding, not what to do with them once they're dead. Suggesting we breed more and kill more is bonkers. If, as a culture, we begin breeding horses for meat, then that shows an acceptance of the horse as livestock rather than a leisure animal. I know there are ponies bred for meat currently - all the little coloured cobs that are born every year don't end up in nice homes - there is no market - they are bred for slaughter. However, we don't yet eat horses in this country as a general rule. The feral ponies on Dartmoor are essentially there because the farmers can't be ar*ed to do anything but run them. I know of one farmer who brought a few of his in and shot them (mares, foals, mares in foal) because he was getting annoyed with too many of them. And this is someone who works with a rehoming organisation - he didn't bother to contact them and it didn't occur to him to do something more proactive. The answer is not to breed more for meat but the opposite. The 'should we eat horse?' is a separate debate entirely and I don't know why they are becoming intertwined by 'Friends' of the Hill Ponies.
 
Horsemeat is often served here as part of christmas smörgåsbords or just regular sandwich cold cuts, despite this being a horse loving country :) There's certainly no confusion about whether the horse is livestock or a leisure animal, but having a market for horsemeat is valuable in helping to control the population.

But as others have said I don't think eating Dartmoor ponies is going to benefit the breed in any way.
 
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It was an interesting debate on radio 2, unfortunately I didn't hear it all. There are three 'types' of Dartmoor, the pure bred Dartmoor pony, the Dartmoor Heritage Pony which is very similar to the pure bred, having good confirmation and being true to type but not pure bred (it was Dru Butterfield from this organisation who was on the radio today), and the Dartmoor Hill pony, which seems to be anything else...
 
I think, as with all things related to over population especially in the horse world, it comes down to breeding. Hit the root of the problem rather than figuring out what to do with the waste products. As far as meat goes, I highly doubt it would catch on in this country and I know I wouldn't eat it. More control needs to be put on breeding and the production of youngstock, in all areas not just on the hills.
 
I don't understand why people are being so rude about the Dartmoor Hill Ponies. Just because they are not pure bred Dartmoors and they don't have the best conformation, they are still living creatures and didn't ask to be born. I also have a DHP from HOPE and she is the loveliest little pony you could wish for.
 
You can't make people eat horsemeat just because you have produced what is essentially a product no one wants for anything else.

I don't think anyone is being rude, just factual. There are reasons there is no market for them relating to their management (poor selection of parents, just chucking them all up there and not giving a damn for their welfare or future etc etc. There are plenty smart enough welshies who are in a similar predicament too though. I think it has been better in the new forest with people taking mares off when stallions are out.
 
ester said:
You can't make people eat horsemeat just because you have produced what is essentially a product no one wants for anything else.
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Dark humour says you can based on recent news coverage.
One notable thing about horsemeat is it's such high quality lean meat it tends to go straight through dogs so it needs to be adulterated in some way.

The other aspect is there may not be a market in this country, but that doesn't present the export of meat to countries where there is a market (not just france!). I would definitely support this over live transport. However putting horses commercially through an abbotoir for human consumption challenges the legal status of horses/ some horses so is quite complicated.
 
Do the other countries not have their own sources of horse meat though? Meat produced for the purpose is generally always going to be nicer - this is another way of suggesting there are breeds I'd rather eat than DHPs, although I know that export does still go on.
 
ester said:
Do the other countries not have their own sources of horse meat though? Meat produced for the purpose is generally always going to be nicer - this is another way of suggesting there are breeds I'd rather eat than DHPs, although I know that export does still go on.
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Here's a d/l pdf that has some facts and figures on horse transport and slaughter numbers (no pictures).

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...e5SVdm02w8C_ts4C6SWd9-w&bvm=bv.76247554,d.ZGU

For example:
It looks like Italy is a major importer and consumer, and I can understand that as there is more land suitable for raising horses in other countries at a cheaper price in other countries. Italy also has not just a history of eating horsemeat but also a range of delicacies based around it... it's more than culturally acceptable in those parts.

Obviously there are some breeds more suitable for meat production but I think a critical part is enabling slaughter in the uk to export the carcass. If we admit there are too many horses and the poorer stock must be culled... the cost of disposal of the body is considerable. It can't just enter the food chain, human or animal, without proper regulation and appropriate slaughter. The hunt kennels can only cope with so much (aside, pure horse flesh goes right through hounds, needs adulterating).
If the horse could be slaughtered in the uk, it would be worth more on the hoof than as an animal requiring transport to the continent (and down to italy is a long way to travel packed on a lorry). Already we are saying the cost of castration is prohibitive. If the alternative if the offer of a better sum than a tenner for that animal (remembering that far fewer colts are needed to maintain numbers) I think some farmers might consider that option. Likewise if the price of a horse for meat was routinely above the price of chipping/ passport, that could help with unregulated horses.
Not to mention the economic advantage of slaughter here.
 
char3479 said:
I got a couple of DHPs from an organisation called HOPE who have been working with farmers since 2010 to get them to remove their stallions. It's not an easy job - it requires a lot of diplomatic communication but the lady who started HOPE is a local and has been successful with one or two of the farmers. The attitudes are ingrained and difficult to change. Not sure why Friends of the Dartmoor Hill Pony have decided to promote eating the ponies as a solution - that's absolute balls. They were on about making the ponies into drums last year.
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Genuine question -

How is the thinking so ingrained? Are we saying this is a historical problem and that DHP have been around for decades and its only the last few years that they have come in for so much attention

Or is this something that has expanded in the last ten years or so and the ponies made a bit of money to start with but no longer do?

Is it just that the farmers simply will not face up to the situation rather than this being genuinely a way of life that is ingrained?

(not talking about the 'genuine' Dartmoor pony here)
 
char3479 said:
They geld as many as they can afford to before they go out, but they just don't have the funds to do all of them. Or indeed to keep them until they are ready to be done. It's not ideal but they do get references and check homes and keep the ponies on loan agreements, so there is as much of a safety net as a small organisation can stretch to.
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In that case it would be far more responsible to put down any they can't afford to castrate.
 
I haven't read everyone's replies but I got to the part in the article when it cleverly stated "eating them will improve welfare" (or something along those lines)... I'm sorry ??!! we eat chickens & pigs and in some circumstances they are still kept in terrible conditions where they cannot even turn round... if that is improved welfare I'd hate to see them treat poorly.

Why don't they just round up the new foals & geld the colts, that way there would be less breeding & less interbreeding.
 
Falconers said:
The stallions on the new forest are only out for a limited amount of time, 4 weeks maximum and only a selected few run out, 10 of them in different areas.

Each stallion/colt has to be inspected by the verderers and vets before running out. Their bloodlines are also assessed as obviously rare ones need to be kept but we don't want too mnay offspring by the same lines year after year either.

This has been in place for a number of years now. Commoners also can take their mares off should they wish not for them not to foal. We got most of ours in last year. There is no point breeding unwanted animals. There is enough of a welfare issue in this country at moment.

As a result of this scheme the pony prices and quality have improved although due to the recent harsh winters and economic climate we've come a full circle but a good forest bred pony can hold its own in the show ring.

I have no problem should people wish to eat them nor being PTS as there are far worse outcomes being alive than being dead!
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Thanks for telling me what goes on in the New Forest! My friedn has a pony from the forest and hes a cracking 15hh SHP
 
At the end of the day the people who own these ponies need to step up to the mark and stop irresponsible breeding!!! Bring as many stallions as you can possible find on the moors and castrate them, the vets around the area should perhaps lower the costs if over x amount are being done at one time. If you have mares up there and do not want to breed from them bring them back down and keep them seperate to the herd.

Its not rocket science just sort out the stallions!!! Yes it maybe hard to gather them all but its better then them whining about all these unwanted foals!!!!!
 
kassieg said:
I haven't read everyone's replies but I got to the part in the article when it cleverly stated "eating them will improve welfare" (or something along those lines)... I'm sorry ??!! we eat chickens & pigs and in some circumstances they are still kept in terrible conditions where they cannot even turn round... if that is improved welfare I'd hate to see them treat poorly.

Why don't they just round up the new foals & geld the colts, that way there would be less breeding & less interbreeding.
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There is more regulation regarding farmed animals, if they were sheep they'd have to be checked more than they do as 'horses' so that is where the suggested welfare improvement is coming from. Some regulation being better than none.

The owners won't pay to geld the colts, they just want to sell them on for a profit but no one wants them/they are worth less than the cost of gelding.
 
WelshD said:
Genuine question -

How is the thinking so ingrained? Are we saying this is a historical problem and that DHP have been around for decades and its only the last few years that they have come in for so much attention

Or is this something that has expanded in the last ten years or so and the ponies made a bit of money to start with but no longer do?

Is it just that the farmers simply will not face up to the situation rather than this being genuinely a way of life that is ingrained?

(not talking about the 'genuine' Dartmoor pony here)
Click to expand...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-26262254
I think this link may answer some of your questions. No body wants them I think is the problem, SWEP is full to bursting point and there is simply no where for them to go. Farmers don't want to spend money on an animal with no value. I had my boy pts last year by a chap called Andrew Goatman (some of you may have heard of him), he's the one who slaughters most of these unwanted ponies and uses them to feed the animals at Dartmoor Zoo. He wanted to build an humane slaughterhouse mainly for DHPs so they not only can have a dignified end but also they can be used for something to increase their value. The last I heard the DPS were very against this idea and appealed though not sure of what the outcome was.
Taking the stallions off would make a big difference but then again it goes back to the farmers not wanting to pay for an animal with no value. It's a real big shame especially when you see a colt foal who's only a few days old and you know they just don't have a future.
 
Mitchyden said:
I don't understand why people are being so rude about the Dartmoor Hill Ponies. Just because they are not pure bred Dartmoors and they don't have the best conformation, they are still living creatures and didn't ask to be born. I also have a DHP from HOPE and she is the loveliest little pony you could wish for.
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I agree. The pony situation is a human problem not a horse one. The pony problem could be sorted. The human "pony men" are a far more difficult problem to deal with.

I have worked with pure bred dartmoors and they did nothing for me. I didn't get involved with hill ponies for many years, they were just like pure bred Dartmoors weren't they so they would have little going for them. Wrong!!! I have 5 hill ponies. They are some of the worst examples, straight off the common and probably arrived due to pity.
I have looked after and handled several more. I live and ride amongs them daily They are not the rubbish everyone seems to think they are.
In fact they are rather nice ponies. They do look rubbish on the common and in the sale ring however 6 months into a private home with decent grub, wormer, lice treatment and handling and they are little stars. Several have gone on to the show ring. Ok not county shows but local ones. Many of them have temperaments that are far nicer and more pleasant to deal with than the pure breds.
I am amazed at their speed and agility. Having seen several pics of the ponies I was involved with in their show ring clobber I am amazed as I think "that was the runt"
I took on a very elderly mare who have lived her life on the common. After a year of really good care she became a different animal. She was a BOGOF. Her foal was born in "captivity" and reared as a domestic horse ie with proper care, worming etc
I was amazed how well it turned out.
The conformation may not be perfect on these ponies but many do have temperaments to die for and if they are baby sitting a small child that is more important than looks.
None of this helps the problem but I get a bit fed up with people rubbishing them.
 
The Exmoor Pony Society have issued a statement to the telegraph and the BBC on request re this subject given the mention of Peter Green's report (which, for anyone interested in the future of the moorbred ponies should read - as well as the response papers written by a huge number of the exmoor farmers, the Exmoor Pony Society and others) :

"In response to The Daily Telegraph article and subsequent BBC programmes, the following has been sent to the BBC at their request:

BREEDING POLICY
The Exmoor Pony Society works closely with its breeders advocating a policy of ‘responsible breeding’ in line with the national welfare and equestrian organisations. To conserve and preserve a rare native breed, it is essential that foals are born every year to ensure that the remaining bloodlines of the registered Exmoor pony are not lost. Both in-ground and moorland breeders running herds of registered Exmoor ponies have made careful decisions regarding their own breeding policies and the number of foals coming forward for registration this year will reflect a further reduction in numbers of foals eligible for registration in the studbook i.e. their sire and dam are both registered in the Exmoor Pony Society studbook. Herd management policies on the moor include running registered mares on secure sites with no stallion, running registered mares on secure sites and retaining the stallions in-ground and undertaking selective breeding, moving registered mares off the moor to conservation grazing sites where they are once again in a non-breeding situation and running geldings. There are currently twenty-one herds running on Exmoor representing with five adopting a non-breeding policy.

The Exmoor Pony Society would like to thank all those running herds of pure-bred registered Exmoor ponies for the support they have shown for adopting a responsible breeding programmes.

The Exmoor Pony Society promotes the Exmoor pony throughout the UK and thus encourage the use of Exmoor ponies as riding and driving ponies and conservation grazing ponies. Upcoming events include:

25th September
RBST Southwest Regional Show and Sale at Sedgemoor Auction Centre, Bridgwater

26/27th September
Malvern Autumn Show, Three Counties Showground, Malvern

11th October
Conquest Centre Open Day, Conquest Equestrian Centre, Norton Fitzwarren

30th October
Bampton Charter Fair, Bampton (in conjunction with the Moorland Mousie Trust)

4th October
Rare Breeds of the Year Show, Houghton Hall Equestrian Centre, Chatteris

8-12th October
Horse of the Year Show, Birmingham NEC (in conjunction with the Moorland Mousie Trust)

11th October
Conquest Open Day, Conquest Equestrian Centre, Norton Fitzwarren

30th October
Bampton Charter Fair (in conjunction with the Moorland Mousie Trust)

26th November
Christmas Foal Show, Cannington Equestrian Centre, Bridgwater

6/7th December
Southwest Equine Fair, Westpoint, Exeter

Visit our facebook page https://www.facebook.com/TheExmoorPonySociety to learn more about the ponies and the many equestrian activities that they can turn to a hoof to!

Guardians of the Breed since 1921
Conserving and Preserving Exmoor’s heritage"

You can find out more about the Exmoor Pony Society and the Exmoor Committee of Herd Owners via the society's facebook page and the work they do to preserve the pure bred Exmoor Pony including the reintroduction of bloodlines to the moor from upcountry herds and the general challenges facing Exmoor breeders.

It's a really interesting time of year for the moorbred ponies as the annual gatherings and inspections start in earnest now - it takes a LOT of work from a huge number of people to gather, inspect and register into the Exmoor Pony Society studbook all of the ponies presented. I am going down to ride some of the gathers again this year, helping to bring the ponies in to their respective farms ...and to whoever said about ponies not being able to hide, please do come and visit Exmoor and attend a gather for yourself! Last year on Winsford Hill a small group of us had to go back up onto the moor after the main gather had finished as someone luckily spotted 3 mares and 2 foals who had managed to evade 10 riders, 2 all terrain buggies and 4 quad bikers (as well as a Countryfile film crew including Adam Henson!) during the mornings gather - and Winsford Hill is probably one of the "easier" parts of the moor to gather the ponies in from!!

There is a wonderful charity called the Moorland Mousie Trust based at the Exmoor Pony Centre on Exmoor who do fabulous work in taking a lot of the unsold colts at gathering time and go on to socialise and handle them before placing them as conservation grazers, on long term loan homes or indeed as "show and tell" ponies at the centre where people can come and learn more about the breed.


ETA for what it's worth, I agree that this is a human problem and not a horse problem, breeders absolutely need to act in a responsible way in the current equine climate.
 
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It's a matter of supply and demand surely? If there is no market for these ponies, then for heaven's sake stop producing more of them!
 
that article makes my head spin, one minute they are dartmoor ponies, then they are hill ponies then they are dartmoor hill ponies, then in the 1930's there were 25,000 now there are 800 but there are now fears of overpopulation!!!

I would happily eat horse meat that has been raised on the moors and slaughtered swiftly and with care taken to reduce stress, it would beat eating barn fattened or overpopulated cattle, pigs and chickens etc.

Dartmoor should be for Dartmoor ponies-all other horses and ponies should be removed, more regulation needs to be put into place (similar to New forest?) to protect our native breeds
 
To use an old adage it's rather like shutting the stable after the horse has bolted. Castrate the colts & stallions FGS! Stop breeding ***** & take responsibility for your animals. ******* hell, it's like an episode of Jeremy Kyle.
 
A scheme similar to the New Forest one would seem to be an appropriate was forward what is sad is Joe Public popping their unwanted ponies along to the moor and turning them free this has been a part of the problem for years the ones that survive add to the hotch potch of breeding and make it very difficult to keep the quality up. The ponies are needed to keep the moor as it is get ride of them and it would change not for the better. What should happen is at the round up anything not of good enough quality should be removed and culled and anything that will improve the ponies chance of a home returned to the moor with a quality but tough stallion run every spring and summer until there is a marketable pony there and one with the possible muscle mass to make meat ponies of the colts after all cattle are bred dual role a nice milker may well be put to a beef bull to increase muscle mass so the offspring have a marketable value instead of being shot at 4 days old. These bull calves are then raised as beef bred, true dairy calves have a very short lifespan
 
Wow so much ignorance on here today. I don't often post on here but this thread has made my blood boil!!!

To start with a little bit of information about the hill ponies. All ponies on dartmoor were brought there for a specific purpose. Small ponies for working in the mines and larger ponies used for transport. There isn't and has never been a single type of pony on dartmoor.
The dartmoor pony was born when showing ponies became popular. When competing in mountain and moorland type competitions the hill ponies did very badly due to their lack of uniform type. As a result a number of breeders started to cross hill pony mares with their chosen characteristics with welsh and other breeds to create what we now know as the dartmoor pony. But please be clear that the dartmoor pony hasn't ever run on dartmoor and if they were put up there they would not survive.
The hill ponies are very important ecologically for the conservation of dartmoor. They are the only animals on the moor who eat the gorse and some other plant species which are not touched by the cattle or sheep. The reduction in the number of ponies on the moor is already having a huge impact on the gorse. which in certain areas is now having to be burnt in order to maintain the open access for the public. The number of ponies on the moor has halved in the past few years and we are in real danger of loosing them from the moors altogether which I personally think would be a disaster got dartmoor. If we loose them they could not just be easily reintroduced. The mares on the moor teach their foals the terrain, how to negotiate bogs, travel through bolder fields and find safe places to eat and drink. Generations of ponies have past this information from mother to daughter. If we loose it now it's gone for good.

There is no public funding for the ponies on dartmoor yet they are considered to be one of the biggest draws for people who want to visit dartmoor. Rightly or wrongly there is always a peak in the number of tourists in the May period when there are very young foals around. Dartmoor (and devon as a whole) is hugely reliant on the tourist trade and any reduction in the number of tourists would be financially bad news for the area. I do feel it's a shame that the tourists don't have the opportunity to donate and support the conservation of the hill ponies.

Which brings me on to the farmers and re breeding of the hill ponies. To those who believe the ponies to be badly bred I'm afraid you are mistaken. There are a minority of farmers who don't really put any importance on their ponies and this is naturally reflected in their stock. But the vast majority place huge pride in their ponies and many will be able to tell you an awful lot about their ponies. They know who their mother was, their grand mother, great grandmother and so on. Whilst their is no breed stud book their are clear lines that go back generations. If the farmers didn't care about their ponies they would not still be on the moor. The vast majority of farmers have inherited their farms from their fathers or other family members and intend to pass it on to the next generation and in the words of one dartmoor farmer he ' doesn't want to be the generation that dropped the batten and lost the ponies'. They do care and are working hard to keep them.

My personal view on the horse meat is that is if it enables us to conserve the ponies on the moor and with it dartmoor itself then good luck to it. I'm not sure if I would eat it myself but I would not stand in the way of it either. It buys us time here. Time which we need to establish a long term sustainable future for the ponies and the farmers on the moor.
I also think that we as an equine community should celebrate what we have here on dartmoor. A semi wild population of ponies from whom we can learn so so much. I still find it amazing that I can go and sit amongst a wild herd and watch them interact with each other, with me and with the other animals on the moor. I can learn the body language they use and just hang out with them in a way that most of us can't so with our own horses. I can take half an hour out from my busy world to think and be in the moment with a herd if beautiful animals in an awesome environment. People fly all over the world to see the mustangs of America and other wild horse populations yet don't celebrate what we have here in the UK.


We can learn so much from theses ponies but they are seriously under threat.
 
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